Sourdough Bread Troubleshooting (Part 1)

[Desiderio]

Good question.

But I dont think that is only a problem concerned the home made bread , because when I buy the bread form a store the same thing appen with the crust getting less crispy.Mine stay crispier little longer , maybe just becuse I live in a really dry place and I do like my bread well done .

Making baguette atm they are looking pretty good, other than one got stuck partially to the peel and one of the side got little fat .I am still using Jackal formula and I adore it!!!

[Bill44]

Well... I guess this is a general bread baking question...  How do We keep the crust crisp? I find my crusts softening just hours after baking.

Is it natural for bread to get a rubbery crust after a day or so, or does it have something to do with air humidity ?

Anything we can do, except accepting that it's something to eat fresh?

←

I've learned to live with it as I haven't found a way to keep it crisp more than about 6 hours. My spare loaves I freeze, and when I want to use them I thaw for about 6 hours and into the oven for 10 mins at 130C, they come out crisp again.

[rooftop1000]

Hey Glenn just wanted to thank you for the "basic white bread" recipe....

it is a thing of beauty and damn tasty too

tracey

[glennbech]

That looks great tracey! It seems that you got some spring, and the crumb looks fluffy and nice!

By the way; I tried out Dan Lepard's Cornmeal&onion sticks this weekend. The technique is a bit like baking danish pastry I guess. You stretch the dough into a rectangle, sprinkle with lots of olive oil, fold it, let it rest, and stretch it back out

again and continue sprinkling, folding and stretching for a long time. It is then baked cut into long "sticks" and baked crisp. A bit like the ones shown here ;

http://www.unionecuochifvg.com/manifestazi.../grissini_d.jpg

They were excellent! I also hava a Rye starter going on now, so be prepared for more experimental sourdough posts from me in the near future!

[glennbech]

Today's Sourdough question from me

Some recipes include both yeast and sourdough. Is the sourdough presence mainly for taste, or rising as well? I guess the answer is both, since such recipes often have a reduced yeast weight and longer bulk&proof times.

(This recipes are quite common in Norway, and are sold as "sourdough" bread. It's only a few bakeries that actually have 100% SD available. )

As far as I know, and from my limited experience, Yeast and sourdough have very different "activation times". And in my experiments, I suspect most of the rise actually comes from the yeast. This is ofcourse very difficult to be sure of.

- I know for a fact that 2-3g of comercial fresh yeast, mixed to a sponge of 100g water/100g white flour "activates" (Doubles or more, before "dropping off") in about 2,5 hours at about 30c.

- My sourdough starter does the same thing with 10-20g starter mixed to the same sponge, fully activates in 7 hours.

Some issues I've been thinking about is ;

- How the rising capabilities of those two sponges compare. I'd like to mix a 65% hydration dough with both sponges, put them in measring jars and take notes over time. Did somebody try this ?

- Another issue is that most recipes use crumbled fresh yeast, and a fully activated sourdough sponge. I guess this is a great Idea, since the yeast will not be fully active until about 2-3 hours, something that should give the sourdough time to multiply. However, I'm very unsure of what actually goes on timing wise.

- How does the comercial fresh yeast tolerate the low PH, and the sinking PH value of the dough as the Lb. SF gains "control" over the dough.

Any input on any rised issue will be valued .-)

Happy baking!

[Desiderio]

I have noticed that some italian will suggest to use a little of baker's yeast to help the sourdough raising, but like you were saying I didnt have any problem raising my SD.I dont think I will mix them if not just for an experiment ,I am not interested in a combinations, now that I have my SD ( one white from rye and another totally rye ) I am happy with my weekly bread ( doesnt mean that I am not experiementing anymore though ).I think Hamelman said something about the adds of little amount of baker's yeast in a sourdough mix, and talks about the proofing time etc , more baker's yeast less proofing ,less more proofing etc.I can go and read it on again and report if you need it.He have a recepie with mixed SD starter ,2 different type , need to go and check .

[Desiderio]

Beautifull bread tracey , I am not a big fan of pullman type of bread expecially SD , but that looks very nice

[glennbech]

..... I think Hamelman said something about the adds of little amount of baker's yeast in a sourdough mix, and talks about the proofing time etc , more baker's yeast less proofing ,less more proofing etc.I can go and read it on again and report if you need it.He have a recepie with mixed SD starter ,2 different type , need to go and check .

←

Dan Lepard also has a lot of mixed recipes in his book "the handmade loaf".

I think one of the reasons is that his "white leaven bread" is very time consuming.

Its a Pure sourdough, with only has 20% of the flour in the pre-ferment, and that the recipe clearly states to keep the dough cold (room temp, around 20-25c). It takes at least 4 hours to bulk ferment, and 4-5 hours to proof. (Im trying it out, with an over-night retardation, right now, will bake and report back tomorrow).

My "basic" recipe has around 33% of the flour in the pre-ferment, and I always use a "proofing lamp" that keeps the dough at about 29-30c.

I guess It's a matter of taste, The Dan Lepard recipe will probably be a bit sour compared to my "usual" recipe, as the temperature has been kept where the Lb. SF bactera tries, and the yeast is not so happy.

So! I guess that Mixed doughs can be fine when you want the SD taste, but don't have the time. I think most Mixed doughs in Dan's book the handmade loaf can be made in 3-4 hours total.

Another technique I've had good experiences with is to make a sponge with baker's yeast (2-3 grams, the size of a pea). It takes about 2-3 hours at 25-30c to fully activate. I then cut the amount of baker's yeast at least in half or even more, and increase bulk/proofing times a bit. It's a great way to reduce the yeasted taste.

I'll definitly keep you all posted on my version of Dan Lepard's "White leavan Bread" :-) I proofed the loaves for 1 hour before retarding them (wich overnight should equal to about 2 hours of proof). The plan is to take them out of the fridge a couple of hours before baking and let them get back to room temperature.

Glenn

[Desiderio]

Cool I am looking foward to read your report.

Why let it a room temperature for 2 hours, and not bake it right out of the fridge?

If there is enough proofing etc it should be fine right out of the fridge right?

Let me know how it went , maybe you should bake one right out of the fridge and the other after 2 hours out at room temperature so you can let me know what happend .

Buona Infornata

[glennbech]

Well. I proofed it 1 hor before putting it in the fridge (I had to go to bed!), overnight in the fridge should be comparable to about 2 hours proofing.

The recipe suggests 4-4,5 hours proofing. That means that I'm one hour short. I guess that 2 hours out of the fridge will compensate for the last hour.

(The loaf will need to get back to room temperature).

But! As you suggest Vanessa, I'll bake one right out the fridge, and proof the other one 2 hours. We'll see the results tonight, about 12 hours from now .-)

[Desiderio]

Very cool then

I was thinking , in the book Hamelman sais that you should never let a dough prooring without fold it at least once in a 2 or longer period time .What would happen if I do the dough and proof it fot 2 hours or so and dont fold it ? Hehe I guess I will try .

[glennbech]

Here is the result of my "white leaven" bread with an overnight retardation experiment ;

I must say that this is by far my most successfull bread .-) I guess I have to thank Dan for that, Thank you Dan :-)

If you look closely at the image in the upper right corner, at the loaves by my basket; you see the different crumb textures. The two loaves on the right with an open and airy texture is the ones that proofed for 2 more ours after I took them out.

The cut pieces in the bottom right corner is the one I baked right out of the fridge.

However, other factors may have come into play. For example the fact that I baked the last loaf for 50 minutes, and the other one for 40. It's also a smaller loaf by weight (Im horrible at splitting doughs in two equal parts!), that means more kneading power per gram, and also more spring in the oven (I believe) as the weight is less.

Thr process I've been using up til now, where 1/3 of the flour in the leaven, and a temperature of 30 degrees c during bulk/proof gives results faster (Almost only half the time of yeast!) However, the taste and texture of my last result has convinced me to experiment more in the "slow" direction .-)

Here is some pictures from the process

I mean... Look at this texture! :-) (Colours are off, I had lighting problems .-)

... And one of the first loaf

Edited May 30, 2006 by glennbech (log)

[Desiderio]

great demo.So you ahve noticed that with that formula if you prooferd 2 more hours after the fridge the results are definatly better?It looks that way from here .How many hours did the dough proof before going into the fridge?

I think I did try Hamelman white leavin bread and I wasnt really pleased , but that probably because I still have lots to learn, and not much time .Any way thanks for the experiment , I think next baking in a couple of days I will try that process of proofing retatarding proofing ( weekend days maybe more time )

Thank you Glenn

[glennbech]

great demo.So you ahve noticed that with that formula if you prooferd 2 more hours after the fridge the results are definatly better?It looks that way from here .How many hours did the dough proof before going into the fridge?

I think I did try Hamelman white leavin bread and I wasnt really pleased , but that probably because I  still have lots to learn, and not much time .Any way thanks for the experiment , I think next baking in a couple of days I will try that process of proofing retatarding proofing ( weekend days maybe more time )

Thank you Glenn 

←

The fact that one loaf was heavier than the other, and that I baked one for 40 minutes and the other for 50, makes me a bit unsure if the experiment is "valid" :-) I think I have to retry, and keep all parameters equal .-)

Next time, I'll also try to bake the one right out from the fridge last. The oven, with my stone was heated for 60 minutes before baking, but you never know what can have an effect.

I proofed the loaves 1 hour before they went into the fridge, meaning ;

Loaf 1 got 4 hours bulk (with flips and stretches along the way) + 1 hour in my basket, room temp. +overnight in fridge.

Loaf 2 got 4 hours bulk (with flips and stretches along the way) + 1 hour in my basket , room temp. +overnight in fridge + 2 hours table top

The recipe isn't big enough for two loaves (to my preference), So I think I'll also try to increase the total weight by 40% So that I get 700g loaves. (Pre baked)

Happy baking :-)

[Desiderio]

I really like the open crumb and the crust of the one that proof longer , definatly the type I crave about .

Thank you

[glennbech]

By the way; I really think that Baking parchment (paper) between the dough and baking stone should be avoided.

The dough is pretty humid (At least for the first minutes) and water is an excellent heat conductor. Im no expert, but If oven spring depends on steam to fill gluten pockets during the first 5-10 minutes, while the crust "sets", I see a very good reason NOT to put anything insulating between the hot source and the wet dough :-)

Thoughts ?

Edited May 31, 2006 by glennbech (log)

[Paul Stanley]

That looks really wonderful. I've found the formula very good, though the one time I wasn't happy was when I retarded overnight in the fridge and baked without allowing adequate time for the dough to get active again, and it was definitely under-risen. Yours looks fantastic.

On the parchment question, I'd say same old familiar story. It's certainly better (anyway, it can't be worse) not to have parchment if you can avoid it, just like it's better to go straight onto a stone in a hot oven. BUT it's surely better to have parchment than to have problems with loaves sticking and tearing when they go into the oven. If there's one thing guaranteed to cause poor rising, it's messing up the dough as it goes in. So I'd say for beginners it's got to be better to use parchment until you get used to the method.

[Desiderio]

Glenn , if you have time and you feel like it , would you please PM me the formula you used from Dan's book?I would probably need to buy the book soon , but already had many expenses with chocolate .

Thank you

[cajungirl]

Here is the result of my "white leaven" bread with an overnight retardation experiment ;

I must say that this is by far my most successfull bread .-) I guess I have to thank Dan for that, Thank you Dan :-)

... And one of the first loaf

←

Oh Glenn...what a beautiful crust and crumb! You're becoming quite the master

[glennbech]

Oh Glenn...what a beautiful crust and crumb! You're becoming quite the master

Thank you :-) I've got so much to learn, but a lifetime to practice :-) Isn't that great ?!

What I am very happy with, is that I now have a process that I know will produce decent bread! (And that fits my schedule) If my starter puffs up to double size overnight, I know that everything will be allright. And that is a big relief.

[cajungirl]

[

What I am very happy with, is that I now have a process that I know will produce decent bread! (And that fits my schedule)  If my starter puffs up to double size overnight, I know that everything will be allright. And that is a big relief.

←

I think thats wonderful

Last week I thought I was able to resurrect my 3 year old starter (from the freezer), but it failed to become robust, so I had a small funeral (te he) and sent it down the drain. I'm still experimenting with part of my starter to get it a little sourer, but the one I've been using is so active and happy that I've been using and getting great results. Unfortunately, I'm just so tired when I get home from work that I practice my skills only on the weekends. And I'm getting old, so if I don't write it down, I forget what I tried on the previous weekend

I'm considering trying to make a new starter as outlined by Peter Reinhardt in "The Bread Baker's Apprentice". We'll see. If I don't do it this weekend, though I will for sure do it eventually.

[glennbech]

I've done a little experiments on sourdough sponge timing. I don't want to recite everthing here, but I was kind of hoping we could have a discussion on it anyway..

I've blogged it at http://www.glennbech.com/2006/06/timing-so...ugh-sponge.html

Here is the The executive summary, since you're all important people and have limited time :-)

I made two starters, A&B, where both contains water at 23c and 150g flour/150g water. A Contains 18g inactive sourdough starter from the fridge, B contains 36g.

The starters were put under my proofing lamp for a constant 28c temperature.

I have photos for all 12 samples in my blog entry along with a table showing elapsed time and volume.

What I wanted to find out was two things ;

1) What are the "lifecycle" of the sponge. How much time goes by before "something starts to happen". When does it peak ? Etc.

The reason why I want to find this out is that I usually have a sponge going when I sleep, or I am at work. I can't watch it all the time (without a webcam that is, great idea!) :-)

2) How does the amount of inactive starter included into you sponge affect it's speed.

http://www.glennbech.com/uploaded_images/graph.gif

I some questions regarding my little experiment

1) When to bake. I assume the peaks are good alternatives ? What are the effects of baking at the different stages? I know that baking with an inactive sponge is disasterous .-) Been there done that

2) Both my starters first increases in size, stops up, falls down a bit, and then "Puffs up" with lits of foam. Can anyone explain to me the chemistry/biology of this? Is this the east taking over ?

3) Are my findings representable for other starters than mine ?

Edited June 3, 2006 by glennbech (log)

[glennbech]

Short update; I replicated my experiment, using 18g of starter to 150g flour/150g water. Again, after 10 hours, it "puffed up" to a second peak. The preferment has a very strong rising capability. The smell of the dough during bulk was a bit "yeasty", and a bit different from my other bread.

This is a classic White leaven bread recipe, with some durum wheat and wholemeal rye added for taste.

I gave it 4 hours worth of bulk fermentation with regular kneadings, retardation in the fridge. I took the dough out of the fridge, shaped and gave it 2-3 hous of proofing in a basket, I was concerned about over-proofing since it was growing fast, that's why I didn't go all the 4,5 hours with proofing.

I'll post crumb pictures as soon as I "open it up" .-) Me and my wife just finished all of the little loaf for dinner .-) Amazing bread!

[DocDougherty]

Well, I have finally worked my way through this thread from the beginning so I wouldn't be too redundant in my questions or suggestions, but I now have a thought experiment for whoever takes it on:

When you retard an active dough, the temperature drops and the rate of proofing goes down, but I think it is for two reasons, not just the reduction in the metabolic rate of the yeast and LAB - but as the temp drops the solubility of CO2 goes up, so some of the gas being produced is absorbed by the liquid in the dough and does not contribute to the rise. When you take it out of the refrigerator and bring it back up to "room temp" the CO2 stays in solution and the additional proofing is a result of warming up the gas trapped in the existing bubbles (plus a little new produced gas).

When you put this loaf into the hot oven, what happens to the dissolved CO2?

Does it contribute to the oven spring?

Is it the source of the surface blistering of retarded dough? (I think yes, but can't figure out how to instrument it to prove it.)

Or does it just diffuse out during baking?

Am I making something out of nothing? I have not found this topic discussed in any of the sourdough forum posts I have read and would be interested in your collective opinions.

Doc

Edited June 29, 2006 by DocDougherty (log)

[rooftop1000]

So....When the dough crawls out of the loaf pan, wraps its tendrils around your baking stone, and tries to drag it into the other room, its obvious you shouldn't leave it to rise for the entire length of Pirates of the Caribbean and dinner out.

damn damn damn the dough looked meaner than the Kraken from the movie.

tracey

Edited July 11, 2006 by rooftop1000 (log)