Sourdough Bread Troubleshooting (Part 1)

[Bill44]

For the sake of the argument, and for educational purposes; How would you guys judge this loaf? Overproofed, underproofed or well proofed ? Or is this just a matter of taste/prefernce ?

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A photo of the cut loaf would have helped, but judging from the gringe I would say the loaf was about 1/2 to 1 hour past its baking prime, in other words a little overproofed.

The absolute peak time is when the gas bubbles have fully developed, but before the time when the yeast is starting to eat away at the bubble walls which will weaken the structure of the loaf causing, at a little overproofed - a disapointing spring and a smaller gringe, at a lot overproofed, the slumped loaf we have all had at some time.

Just because a loaf is still growing when proofing does not mean that it is not past its prime baking time, remember that a loaf is at its biggest just before it collapses.

[Bill44]

Hi all, I've been reading some of this thread and and y'all have really inspired me.

I'm hopeful that someone can help me.  My sourdough bread has recently lost is "sour".  I live in the SF Bay area, San Jose, so its not my location.  I took a course on artisan bread baking in March which really got me stoked to get back into the sourdough thing again.  I had a starter that was really nice and sour and was making great bread.  All of a sudden it has become much sweeter. 

1)  I know it could be the ash in the flour, how do I tell how much there is in it?  I use King Arthur Bread Flour.

2)  Also, I put a little ascorbic acid when I make the dough.  I can't imagine that would sweeten my dough, am I wrong?

I recently purchased a HearthKit and I get this wonderful bread, crackly crust and lovely moist crumb....but its not sour.  What have I done to my starter?  Can anyone help? 

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The quickest way to get your "sour" back is to not refresh your starter so often, extend the time between feeding, and use more of your old starter when you feed. Some people just use a very small amount of starter and give it a big feed, this will give you a very active starter but not one that is very sour. Trial and error will find the happy medium for you.

[glennbech]

Bill;

'

For the sake of the argument, and for educational purposes; How would you guys judge this loaf? Overproofed, underproofed or well proofed ? Or is this just a matter of taste/prefernce ?

←

A photo of the cut loaf would have helped, but judging from the gringe I would say the loaf was about 1/2 to 1 hour past its baking prime, in other words a little overproofed.

Just because a loaf is still growing when proofing does not mean that it is not past its prime baking time, remember that a loaf is at its biggest just before it collapses.

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I think you're right. I usually bulk ferment (and do hourly "flips") for 3-4 hours, then I shape into a boule and puts my loaf into a proofing basket, and then into the fridge.

I think 12-13 hours in the fridge is probably a bit to much .-)

By the way; here's the crumb. Do you mind sharing what you look for in the crumb when deciding wether a loaf is under/over proofed ?

I'm not sure how to counter counter this, as Im seriously dependent of the flexibility the fridge proofing gives me, when it comes to baking time.

Maybe I should reduce bulk ferment time?

Edited May 20, 2006 by glennbech (log)

[glennbech]

2)  Also, I put a little ascorbic acid when I make the dough.  I can't imagine that would sweeten my dough, am I wrong?

I can't possibly imagine that it should have anything to do with it .-)

Another thing that struck my mind was temperature. The bacteria/yeast activity is determined by temperature. If you proof/bulk ferment for longer, and at lower temperatures, you should get a more "sour" result (I believe)

[devlin]

A photo of the cut loaf would have helped, but judging from the gringe I would say the loaf was about 1/2 to 1 hour past its baking prime, in other words a little overproofed.

Can you say a little more about that? What about the grigne might suggest a loaf is either over or under proofed? Is it the rather exceptional separation of crust on this particular loaf?

[devlin]

To add a little to the discussion regarding the "too sweet" sourdough, I'm wondering how old the starter is and how often it's refreshed.

For me, personally, I'm not a big fan of a really sour bread and I love my own sourdough precisely because it's not very sour. It's mild but at the same time very flavorful. But nearly without exception, I use a fermentation of at least two days which lends a bread a more complex flavor.

It's also my understanding that the term "sourdough" is something of a misnomer for many folks who work a lot with sourdoughs, and that the more appropriate term may simply be "naturally leavened," which is a term I prefer myself. Sourdough, after all, is what all leavened breads were before the advent of commercial yeast, and I'm pretty certain breads weren't uniformly sour historically, having a wide range of flavors depending on how individual bakers handled their natural or native leavens.

Also, to note an earlier comment about fermenting versus rise, these are, to my understanding, not the same process. The rise comes with proofing. The fermentation is the process a leavened dough goes through to enhance flavor.

[edited for clarification]

Edited May 20, 2006 by devlin (log)

[Bill44]

By the way; here's the crumb. Do you mind sharing what you look for in the crumb when deciding wether a loaf is under/over proofed ?

Glennbech and Devlin, hopefully this will answer you both.

Firstly the gringe edges show a thick edge where they have been slashed, this indicates quite a long time in the fridge which forms a skin on the loaf caused by the drying out of the surface. This skin will tend to inhibit the oven rise a little bit, and in a correctly proofed loaf the bread in the gringe will push up to completely fill the gap, in this case it barely comes up level, apart from not a lot of opening of the gringe. This combined with an overall flat look to the loaf is what I based my judgement on.

When looking at the crumb of an overproofed loaf you will notice a compression at the bottom, this is caused by the weight of the loaf collapsing the weakened overproofed cells. In the case of Glennbecks loaf you can just see the start of a small amount of compression, which supports my initial judgement of a slightly overproofed loaf.

The amount of time in the fridge is quite long, if you can not avoid this then I would definitely cut down on the first proof time. Putting your loaf (Basket and all) into a plastic bag before putting into the fridge will help (but not totally stop) the drying out of the loaf surface. A little bit of skin is good, particularly in a high hydration loaf, as it helps support the loaf and gives a good crust without overbaking.

[glennbech]

The amount of time in the fridge is quite long, if you can not avoid this then I would definitely cut down on the first proof time. Putting your loaf (Basket and all) into a plastic bag before putting into the fridge will help (but not totally stop) the drying out of the loaf surface. A little bit of skin is good, particularly in a high hydration loaf, as it helps support the loaf and gives a good crust without overbaking.

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Yup. Reducing initial bulk ferment time helped a bit. I shorted it down to about 2,5 hours (half hour rest / knead cycle), and two hours of bulk fermentation. I got a far better spring and a more "shallow" gringe.

I also suspect that the yeast activity is more or less suspended at 10-15c. And the only "proofing" that really happens in the dough inside the fridge is during "cooldown".

From my limited experience, I havn't noticed any significant differnece in loaves proofed at 15c for 8-10 hours (like my last atempt, kept on the balcony) and loaves proofed at 4c for a longer period.

It seems that the total "bulk ferment" time has a larger impact on the total size of the dough.

Any points of view on this ?

[Bill44]

I also suspect that the yeast activity is more or less suspended at 10-15c. And the only "proofing" that really happens in the dough inside the fridge is during "cooldown".

From my limited experience, I havn't noticed any significant differnece in loaves proofed at 15c for 8-10 hours (like my last atempt, kept on the balcony)  and loaves proofed at 4c for a longer period.

It seems that the total "bulk ferment" time has a larger impact on the total size of the dough.

Any points of view on this ?

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Yeast activity is not suspended at the lower temperatures, it still occurs very slowly. It takes about 2 - 2 1/2 hours in the fridge for the loaf to cool to the "slow" stage, so overnight in the fridge is generally taken as 2 hours proofing time, but don't count on this always being the case.

Yeasts can be tricky depending on the type you have. For example, a particular strain of yeast used for brewing Lager beer is at it's best at around 3C.

[glennbech]

Yeast activity is not suspended at the lower temperatures, it still occurs very slowly. It takes about 2 - 2 1/2 hours in the fridge for the loaf to cool to the "slow" stage, so overnight in the fridge is generally taken as 2 hours proofing time, but don't count on this always being the case.

I understand. There are a lot of variables as well. My fridge is a noisy old one. If it's drafty and not very efficient, I guess the cooling process can take more time.

Another factory that may come into play, is the fact that I proof my loaves at 30c,

wich gives them a significanly longer "cooldown" time, compared to a 21-22c loaf that would have been the case with "room temperature".

About 2,5 hours of bulk ferment, and overnight in the fridge works well for me now, so I'm quite happy .-) I guess the trick is to tweak variables of the process small amounts at a time to get the optimal process for "your own" environment.

Thanks for the help and insight! It is appreciated.

[cajungirl]

The quickest way to get your "sour" back is to not refresh your starter so often, extend the time between feeding, and use more of your old starter when you feed. Some people just use a very small amount of starter and give it a big feed, this will give you a very active starter but not one that is very sour. Trial and error will find the happy medium for you.

←

[cajungirl]

Another thing that struck my mind was temperature. The bacteria/yeast activity is determined by temperature. If you proof/bulk ferment for longer, and at lower temperatures, you should get a more "sour" result (I believe)

←

[glennbech]

Actually, this weekend I tried taking the starter and mixing up the firm starter (as in Peter Reinhardt's book, "The Bread Baker's Apprentice") and immediately putting it into the fridge. left it there for 48 hours, made the bulk dough, and immediately put it into the fridge and let it rise for about 20 hours, took out of the fridge 1 hour before baking. It was really beautiful, and wonderful oven spring. But not sour enough ...

Please don't listen to me, Im all wrong .-) I found the article I was looking for here ;

http://www.egullet.com/imgs/egci/sourdough/science.html

If you look at the chart you see that the lacto bacteria trives best at higher temperatures, and that the yeast grows better in the lower range.

If you want "sour" bread, you should maybe try to bulk ferment at 86f-87f or something. Note that the yeast activity drops of at those temperatures.

http://www.egullet.com/imgs/egci/sourdough/table.html

I guess It all boils down to how scientific you want to get .-) ... Or if you're happy with a sour summer bread, and not so sour winter bread .-)

[cajungirl]

To add a little to the discussion regarding the "too sweet" sourdough, I'm wondering how old the starter is and how often it's refreshed.

For me, personally, I'm not a big fan of a really sour bread and I love my own sourdough precisely because it's not very sour. It's mild but at the same time very flavorful. But nearly without exception, I use a fermentation of at least two days which lends a bread a more complex flavor.

It's also my understanding that the term "sourdough" is something of a misnomer for many folks who work a lot with sourdoughs, and that the more appropriate term may simply be "naturally leavened," which is a term I prefer myself. Sourdough, after all, is what all leavened breads were before the advent of commercial yeast, and I'm pretty certain breads weren't uniformly sour historically, having a wide range of flavors depending on how individual bakers handled their natural or native leavens.

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Hi Devlin,

The starter was given to me at the beginning of March and I've been baking with it about once a week since then. I was feeding her twice per week, one time being two days before using it. My feeding routine was to save one cup of starter, add one cup of flour and 3/4 cup of water.

Also, "sourdough" is exactly what I want, to be precise San Francisco Sourdough. Because I live only about 40 miles from S.F., it shouldn't be a problem for me to have the right yeast and bacteria. And I think what I've been getting is "naturally leavened" rather than a tangy dough.

I will try feeding her less frequently and maybe cutting down on the feeding material...hopefully that will do it for me.

[cajungirl]

Actually, this weekend I tried taking the starter and mixing up the firm starter (as in Peter Reinhardt's book, "The Bread Baker's Apprentice") and immediately putting it into the fridge. left it there for 48 hours, made the bulk dough, and immediately put it into the fridge and let it rise for about 20 hours, took out of the fridge 1 hour before baking. It was really beautiful, and wonderful oven spring. But not sour enough ...

Please don't listen to me, Im all wrong .-) I found the article I was looking for here ;

http://www.egullet.com/imgs/egci/sourdough/science.html

If you look at the chart you see that the lacto bacteria trives best at higher temperatures, and that the yeast grows better in the lower range.

If you want "sour" bread, you should maybe try to bulk ferment at 86f-87f or something. Note that the yeast activity drops of at those temperatures.

http://www.egullet.com/imgs/egci/sourdough/table.html

I guess It all boils down to how scientific you want to get .-) ... Or if you're happy with a sour summer bread, and not so sour winter bread .-)

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HI Glenn,

Thanks for sending me the link, guess I'll get to studying again. The one thing thats really nice is getting to discuss this with all of you, pick your collective brains and of course continue to eat my mistakes...

[rooftop1000]

Most of the mistakes have at the very least made damn good toast.

I am out of flour...thats like 15 pound in 2 weeks

tracey

[Desiderio]

Hahaha yes gotta get more flour , I cant believe I am using that much I had 25 lb downstairs ,I do eat a lot of my experiment ( i am nuts for bread ).

I ,like Devlin like my sourdough just right, I cant stand a very sour bread,and I dont like bread like pullman bread made out of sour , dont know why , umm maybe because I dont like crumb , I am all crust ! .

I gotta some more dough in the fridge waiting maybe till tomorrow morning , I want to go to bed after work ,Making more ciabatta bread , ummm yummy.

[Bill44]

Keeping your starter at lower temperatures will slow down the yeast activity, but it will encourage the formation of acetic acid which is your "sour". So if you want to get really technical about it, refresh your starter and let it stand for about 2-3 hours, put it in the fridge overnight and in the morning take it out and let it warm up and become active again. I have done this at times for a strong sour, when you lift the lid after it becomes active the sour will really clear your sinuses.

[glennbech]

Yesterday I was very successfull with a "One day" process, letting the pre-ferment build up during working hors, fermenting, shaping, proofing and baking between 18-19 and 00:00.

Quiz Time !

I try to get 2 hours and bulk fermentation, and then 2-3 hours of proofing.

Will spending more time result in ;

1) more spring

2) better/more taste

3) better texture/crumb

4) Better crust

5) All of the above

I Bought another 22 pounds/10 kilos of white flour yesterday.

A Hobby where one can eat one's mistakes, is not bad. Not bad

at all :-)

Since Im baking for my parent's Silver anaversary with a "tapas" theme, Im going to try a self invented "black pesto" bread with olives today... I'll keep you informed .-)

Edited May 23, 2006 by glennbech (log)

[cajungirl]

Keeping your starter at lower temperatures will slow down the yeast activity, but it will encourage the formation of acetic acid which is your "sour". So if you want to get really technical about it, refresh your starter and let it stand for about 2-3 hours, put it in the fridge overnight and in the morning take it out and let it warm up and become active again. I have done this at times for a strong sour, when you lift the lid after it becomes active the sour will really clear your sinuses.

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Thanks Bill! I'm going to try that. But in the meantime, I have some really good news. About two and a half to three years ago I created a starter using the "grapes" method. Can't remember which of my books I took it from, but it was a grand experiment for me. The starter was tangy and flavorful. I froze some of it and last night while searching for something else I found the starter. I was sure that it had been frozen too long to be revived. I let it defrost, put it in a jar and fed it, left it out on the counter, about 60F and this morning there was definite activity. I almost feel like I gave birth...and I guess in a way I did

[Bill44]

Keeping your starter at lower temperatures will slow down the yeast activity, but it will encourage the formation of acetic acid which is your "sour". So if you want to get really technical about it, refresh your starter and let it stand for about 2-3 hours, put it in the fridge overnight and in the morning take it out and let it warm up and become active again. I have done this at times for a strong sour, when you lift the lid after it becomes active the sour will really clear your sinuses.

←

Thanks Bill! I'm going to try that. But in the meantime, I have some really good news. About two and a half to three years ago I created a starter using the "grapes" method. Can't remember which of my books I took it from, but it was a grand experiment for me. The starter was tangy and flavorful. I froze some of it and last night while searching for something else I found the starter. I was sure that it had been frozen too long to be revived. I let it defrost, put it in a jar and fed it, left it out on the counter, about 60F and this morning there was definite activity. I almost feel like I gave birth...and I guess in a way I did

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Congratulations "Mum".

[Desiderio]

Ok I dont want to start another thred because its bread making /flour question anyway.

Ok I just bought some more flour ( arthur king ) and a 25 lb bag of "Bronze Chief"

Hard read spring wheat,it has 5gr of protein per serving ( 30gr) so high protein indeed.Now my question how to mill it with my home appliances?just with a regula food processor little bit at the time?Or I need a specialized wheat mill.Never done it before if any of you have any experience or advice please dont esitate .

Thank you

[glennbech]

Ok I dont want to start another thred because its bread making /flour question anyway.

Ok I just bought some more flour ( arthur king ) and a 25 lb bag of "Bronze Chief"

Hard read spring wheat,it has 5gr of protein per serving ( 30gr) so high protein indeed.Now my question how to mill it with my home appliances?just with a regula food processor little bit at the time?Or I need a specialized wheat mill.Never done it before if any of you have any experience or advice please dont esitate  .

Thank you

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That's high protein indeed .-) I was considering buying one of these ;

http://www.electricshopping.com/shop/kenwo....do?pvSKU=AT941

Have anyone any experience with mill attachments to kitchen machines? What's the main advantage of milling in the kitchen, except for the obvious sentimental value?

[Beanie]

Ok I dont want to start another thred because its bread making /flour question anyway.

Ok I just bought some more flour ( arthur king ) and a 25 lb bag of "Bronze Chief"

Hard read spring wheat,it has 5gr of protein per serving ( 30gr) so high protein indeed.Now my question how to mill it with my home appliances?just with a regula food processor little bit at the time?Or I need a specialized wheat mill.Never done it before if any of you have any experience or advice please dont esitate  .

Thank you

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I expect a delivery of Prairie Gold wheat berries tomorrow and plan to mill them using my old Vita Mix. I'll let you know how it works out.

Edited to add: I don't think a food processor would work, but you can pick up old Vita-Mix machine on ebay and refurbished machines directly from Vita-Mix. They provide excellent customer service. But a wheat mill would be best. I think this has been covered on a few threads, probably posts by Andiesenji.

Edited May 24, 2006 by Beanie (log)

[glennbech]

Well... I guess this is a general bread baking question... How do We keep the crust crisp? I find my crusts softening just hours after baking.

Is it natural for bread to get a rubbery crust after a day or so, or does it have something to do with air humidity ?

Anything we can do, except accepting that it's something to eat fresh?