Sourdough Bread Troubleshooting (Part 1)

Desiderio · May 3, 2006

Ugh. Bread dough is like a baby: it insists on following its own timetable. The other night I mixed dough at midnight, then got up at 4.00am to shape it before going back to sleep, then baked at 7.00! Fresh bread for lunch ... but slightly crazy.
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I agree I do the same I am up now at 6.30 to do the baking, but it is worth ,I love to have fresh bread :biggrin:

glennbech · May 3, 2006

It's so cool to hear that you guys are altering your time table to babysit bread. I thought I was the only one. Lol .-)

Desiderio · May 3, 2006

Umm I am not satisfied with the bread , I mean its ok , but nothing like I wanted .I want lots of nice holes and a thick crust , that I dont seem able to reproduce.The other resepie at this point was closer , in this one I did last night the crum sems too compact, no holes or just few little ones.In fact it says in the recepie to retard overnight for this , I am wondering if the refrigeration will help create a better crumb more areated.Hamelman in his book said ( I went and look today again ) that after ther refrigeration the loaves dont need to be at room temperature before baking , but just bake them out of the fridge , if the proofing and shaping etc is done correctly.I migh try another batch on thursday night ( last day of the week for my working schedule so I can dedicate more time at the bread :raz: ).I also notice a big difference in the taste , and I thought there was almost no difference between the two recepie ( such a newbie haha ).Oh well its good to try though .Keep you posted .

Good bread guys

rooftop1000 · May 4, 2006

So everyone baking bread definatly got to me. Last Friday I started a starter. Did everything by the book as it were ...the EGCI Sourdough class.

Monday morning I refreshed the starter, Monday night I mixed and hydrated and salted and mixed and proofed. It rose a teeny tiny bit, and into the fridge it went. Tuesday afternoon I flipped my floury dough pancake onto the peel and into a really hot oven. I used a squeeze bottle to spray water on the floor and walls of the oven, then cursed like a sailor pulled the rack out slashed the top of the dough sprayed and shut the door again.

It rose like a champ got all nice and brown and crusty...so I repeated with the second dough pancake....dare I say an EXACT repeat - load, spray, curse, slash, spray etc.

I also lowered the temp a little for the 2nd loaf.

Well neither one was fully cooked inside BUT it was the best tasting bread I have ever made and makes really nice toast. :cool:

Pizza on saturday

tracey

Edited May 4, 2006 by rooftop1000 (log)

glennbech · May 4, 2006

Your crumb looks real nice, but you say it wasn't cooked on the inside ? Do you mean like a bit "moist"? I've experienced that I couple of times.

Good work man!

glennbech · May 4, 2006

Umm I am not satisfied with the bread , I mean its ok , but nothing like I wanted .I want lots of nice holes and a thick crust , that I dont seem able to reproduce.The other resepie at this point was closer , in this one I did last night the crum sems too compact, no holes or just few little ones.In fact it says in the recepie to retard overnight for this , I am wondering if the refrigeration will help create a better crumb more areated.Hamelman in his book said ( I went and look today again ) that after ther refrigeration the loaves dont need to be at room temperature before baking , but just bake them out of the fridge , if the proofing and shaping etc is done correctly.I migh try another batch on thursday night ( last day of the week for my working schedule so I can dedicate more time at the bread ).I also notice a big difference in the taste , and I thought there was almost no difference between the two recepie ( such a newbie haha ).Oh well its good to try though .Keep you posted .
Good bread guys
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What were your rising and proofing times for this batch? I'm not sure anymore if the "holes" is something to aim for (other than the cool looks) I managed to get real big holes with my last loaves, but the crumb was still moist and compact .-) So... Big

holes surrounded by bad tasting moist crumb... I'd be happy with an even spongy and fluffy crumb any day .-)

I have a dough in the fridge right now that rised 4 hours last night, shaped and put directly into the fridge. I wonder if I should proof it for 3-4 hours before baking, or just slap it on the peel, slice and bake.... Any Ideas on this? Anyone ?

glennbech · May 4, 2006

Okay... 3'rd post in a row here :-) I'm spamming this thread... (I don't really care since I started it, and really want to share a Revealation made last night *grin* )

Instead of mixing the dough first carefully for 3 minutes, and then more intensly up to 5 minutes more with my Kenwood, I just used the machine to mix all ingredients after my pre-ferment.

I then just worked a bit with the dough on the table top, and let it rest for 10-15 mintutes.

Here is the incredible thing.. when I got back, I expected a wet difficult to handle douhg. That was not true! The doigh had "hardened" significantly, and I was able to give it a few "folds" and "flips" with my hands oiled. I let it rest some more, and went back later... Even more firmness....

I've read about this teqnique on this forum, but seeing it for myself was a very interesting experience. I didn't do this "scientificly" like counting seconds when handling the dough, and doing perfect timings between handling, but I rested and worked the dough for an hour or so.

It is by far the firmest and easiest 68% hydration dough I'e been working with as of today .-)

Paul Stanley · May 4, 2006

I'm glad you tried that method. It is sort of magic isn't it? After years reckoning that I had to knead and knead to get decent bread, the revelation that it was as much time as kneading that matters has been considerable. I find the process of gently kneading and then turning on an oiled surface quite helpful, and the resulting dough rather easier to handle.

As to holes, moist crumb etc etc. I think one has to let the holes take care of themselves! I tend to get bread with a few large holes, but not all that many, which is fine by me. Overall texture of the crumb is more important. Also, I do want an "even" crumb, if you see what I mean: large and small holes, but all through the loaf, not a tight texture at the bottom and huge holes at the top. That tends to come I think from trying to use a wet dough to make shapes (boules, batons) it can't support: wet doughs demand "flatter" shapes (think ciabatta and focaccia).

On crust, I find that leaving the bread in the oven for about 5 to 10 minutes after it is cooked (with the oven turned off) improves the crust. But I've never got in my domestic oven a crust of the quality that comes out of a "proper" bread oven, and I suspect one just has to live with that.

So far as the moistness of the crumb is concerned, I think it is partly a question of the baking (must bake enough ... which usually means a little longer than you think you need), partly a question of the adequacy of the proofing (under proofed bread tends to seem a bit soggy because it is so dense), and partly maybe a question of time after baking. The quality of the crumb and the taste improves over a few hours after baking, I think. Not sure about the chemistry of that, but presumably the same process as staling. To some degree it is desirable. For me the "perfect" window for sourdough is between 6 hours and 24 hours after the bread came out of the oven. Sourdough seems to get sourer over that time as well. And naturally raised breads can have quite a moist crumb anyway, often. Poilane's bread, for instance, has just that moist texture. I don't think it is undesirable!

Paul Stanley · May 4, 2006

BTW, Tracey, that bread looks great, and the loaf you have cut doesn't look soggy or underbaked at all. Lovely.

Desiderio · May 4, 2006

So everyone baking bread definatly got to me. Last Friday I started a starter. Did everything by the book as it were ...the EGCI Sourdough class.
Monday morning I refreshed the starter, Monday night I mixed and hydrated and salted and mixed and proofed. It rose a teeny tiny bit, and into the fridge it went. Tuesday afternoon I flipped my floury dough pancake onto the peel and into a really hot oven. I used a squeeze bottle to spray water on the floor and walls of the oven, then cursed like a sailor pulled the rack out slashed the top of the dough sprayed and shut the door again.
It rose like a champ got all nice and brown and crusty...so I repeated with the second dough pancake....dare I say an EXACT repeat - load, spray, curse, slash, spray etc.
I also lowered the temp a little for the 2nd loaf.
Well neither one was fully cooked inside BUT it was the best tasting bread I have ever made and makes really nice toast.
Pizza on saturday
tracey
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I dont know it looks pretty good to me , and the crumb doesnt look undercooked looks great , I wish I could get that kinda of crumb , stil wasnt able to at this point .

Good work , Thanks for sharing guys )

Desiderio · May 4, 2006

Okay... 3'rd post in a row here :-) I'm spamming this thread... (I don't really care since I started it, and really want to share a Revealation made last night *grin* )
Instead of mixing the dough first carefully for 3 minutes, and then more intensly up to 5 minutes more with my Kenwood, I just used the machine to mix all ingredients after my pre-ferment.
I then just worked a bit with the dough on the table top, and let it rest for 10-15 mintutes.
Here is the incredible thing.. when I got back, I expected a wet difficult to handle douhg. That was not true! The doigh had "hardened" significantly, and I was able to give it a few "folds" and "flips" with my hands oiled. I let it rest some more, and went back later... Even more firmness....
I've read about this teqnique on this forum, but seeing it for myself was a very interesting experience. I didn't do this "scientificly" like counting seconds when handling the dough, and doing perfect timings between handling, but I rested and worked the dough for an hour or so.
It is by far the firmest and easiest 68% hydration dough I'e been working with as of today .-)
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Nice , did you let the loaves in the fridge after and bake them right away?

Let us know , and post some pics :biggrin: .

Thank you Glennbech,this thread is very very interesting and helping us achieving what we want .

donyeokl · May 4, 2006

Hi Tracey,

So everyone baking bread definatly got to me. Last Friday I started a starter. Did everything by the book as it were ...the EGCI Sourdough class.
Monday morning I refreshed the starter, Monday night I mixed and hydrated and salted and mixed and proofed. It rose a teeny tiny bit, and into the fridge it went. Tuesday afternoon I flipped my floury dough pancake onto the peel and into a really hot oven. I used a squeeze bottle to spray water on the floor and walls of the oven, then cursed like a sailor pulled the rack out slashed the top of the dough sprayed and shut the door again.
It rose like a champ got all nice and brown and crusty...so I repeated with the second dough pancake....dare I say an EXACT repeat - load, spray, curse, slash, spray etc.
I also lowered the temp a little for the 2nd loaf.
Well neither one was fully cooked inside BUT it was the best tasting bread I have ever made and makes really nice toast.

The loaves look fine, seems the dough spread a little too fast before going into the oven... You might want to use a slightly smaller proving basket or banetton so that you force the dough to rise rather than spread sideways during the final rise.

What temperature did you bake the loaves in? I normally bake at 230C for 10mins then reduce to 190C and bake for another 30 to 35 minutes or till loaf sounds hollow when tapped. Put a tray of water at the bottom of the oven when baking, this will create steam in the oven. You might want to insert it at the same time you put your dough in for baking.

Hope this helps... :rolleyes:

BTW, I just baked this sourdough loaf today using the starter instead of baker's yeast. I used Glenbech recipe and modified it a little with 50% wholemeal flour and 50% bread flour and used water instead of milk.

Thanks Glenbech for the recipe...

Happy Baking...

Don

rooftop1000 · May 4, 2006

Don you are not going to make me think...I refuse I baked the darker one that was cut - at 500 and the lighter one got reduced to 400 after the steam. I used a floured dishtowel in a big bowl for rising and a squeeze bottle to generate steam. I have no idea what temperature the sponge was at but I let the dough rise 3 hours in the turned off oven but I was making dinner using the stove top....Did pretty good I think

tracey

glennbech · May 4, 2006

Nice , did you let the loaves in the fridge after and bake them right away?
Let us know , and post some pics biggrin.gif .

Well... I can only report disaster! But at least, I know where I went wrong and are making steps to correct them. I guess that's the most important thing ? :unsure:

I decided on not to bake right from the fridge. So I rised the loaf for about 3 hours, and got incredible size. It was on it's way out of my proofing basket. Then disaster struck Again .... :angry:

Have a look at this... What a complete disaster. over 24 hours after i started this bread, it's totally ruined by a bad couche! Im making sure that that will never happen again!

A small detail.... Does these bubbles mean the dough is over-proved, or just well proved? I got real good rise after I took it out of the fridge.

Okay... So this is what Im doing with the stickyness.... I took out a fresh cloth. Put it on my kitchentop and sprinkled with a Lot of rye flour. I then started to press and work the flour into the cloth by applying preasure. I'm trying this design for an "anti-stick couche" as I type, and will report back with

a (I hope) successfull atempt.

The result was, of course a totally defalted dough. I should probably have put it back in a basket for a second proof. But I decided to go with it and test it's oven spring.

The results were not good, as you can see. A Very dense wet crumb (Due to under-baking), and large holes. Not a good combo .-) I'll bake my next batch tonight, with an improved couche and report back the results. Proof of failure ;

Edited May 4, 2006 by glennbech (log)

donyeokl · May 4, 2006

Hi Glenbech,

I decided on not to bake right from the fridge. So I rised the loaf for about 3 hours, and got incredible size. It was on it's way out of my proofing basket. Then disaster struck Again .... angry.gif

You might have over-proof the dough... :blink:

Try doing the process again, you should be fine this time... :smile:

Cheers...

Don

Edited May 5, 2006 by donyeokl (log)

glennbech · May 4, 2006

Over-proofed or not... If you look at the picture where My cloth is totally stuck to the dough.... Might explain a few things .-)

Anyhow... I always have a backup plan, and baked the exact same recipe starting this morning... So I'm making a "one day" variant with 3 hours ferment, shaping, 2 hour proof, slit, bake and pray for spring .-)

It looks real good, smells real g so far... I'll post pictures later tonight (It's 00:51 here).

glennbech · May 4, 2006

Well.. I'm very happy with today's results. One good loaf, and one real bad. The most important thing is that I now (might) have a "baseline" process that I can build on and optimize, that woorks for my conditions. (And that produces decent bread *grin*)

Leasons learned today;

#1 ) I will never again leave room for any doubt that the dough may stick to the couche. I'll smear, rub and sprinkle so much rice or rye flour on that cloth, that nothing will ever stick. I'm also keeping this cloth in a sealed box for later use.

Using plenty of flour in the proofing basket also has another benefit. The surface of the bread gets drier, and is easier to slice. Even Gilette Razor blades have problems with a wet dough.

#2 ) I now learn how much rise that is theoreticaly possible to get from my "standard recipe", and can see from my proofing box when it's time to move it into the oven.

Standard Recipe follows, as entered into my home made Online Baker's percentage calculator, comments on this is more than welcome! .-)

#3) "one day sourdough" is possible .-)

#4) The Kenwood Kitchen machine is suspended from it's duty when baking. A few folds and some stretches and lot's of rest is all that the dough needs.

Here you can see the two loaves for today. Both are made using the exact same recipe. The smallest and most compact (the bad), stuck to my couche and colapsed.

The other Im quite happy with. It's still hot so I can't' slice it yet .-)

Edited May 4, 2006 by glennbech (log)

Desiderio · May 4, 2006

Great post , and finally some pics :biggrin:

Well the difference between them its enormous, incredible.

i still have problems with the dough getting stuck to my cloth I think I need to get some rice flour but I didnt see it around at the store , maybe specialized ones?

And I cant get my routin squared away because everytime I bake its in the middle of the night then I go sleep for a while then up and sometimes I leave the dought there longer than what it should without folding it :raz: .So when I go back to the final step the dough either stuck to the cloth or I have hard time do the transfer form the sheet to the stone in the oven , last time they stcuk to the baking sheet where I put them for the final proof, I dont know how to do with the bannetons (sp )I mean after you shape them then put them in the bannetons or else and the move them to the oven , how you do that ?

Hehe well I guess need more time to figure that out.

thank you again for the great post ))

CanadianBakin' · May 5, 2006

I have a question too!
I'm on day 2 of my first sour dough bread. I'm using a recipe from the Chef who taught a pastry & baking class I took in March.
Day 1 - I kneaded together starter, bread flour, water and salt. Let sit at room temp 24 hours.
Day 2 - I made up the bread dough and let sit at room temp 6 hours, then shaped and now have in the fridge fermenting.
Day 3 - I'm supposed to let sit at room temp until double and then bake. I know it depends on a lot of factors but approximately how long will this take? I have 2 1-1/2 lb loaves. If I take them out at 1pm should that be enough time to have them ready for dinner at 5:30? I'm going to be out most of the morning so my other option is to take them out at 9am and bake them off when they look ready, hoping that from 9 - 1pm when I get home won't be too long.
Also, what temp and approximately how long? My instructions just say to BAKE.
I don't know if it makes a difference but I made them with multi-grain bread flour.
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Just wanted to report back. I don't have a digital camera so I don't have pictures to show.

I took the loaves out of the fridge at about 8:30 am. I put them on a perforated baking sheet and covered the underneath of the pan with foil so the bottom of the loaves wouldn't dry out and loosely covered the tops with saran. The pan was very cold from the loaves so to give it a kick start I put them in the oven with a pan of boiling water on the bottom rack. They were in the oven for maybe 20 minutes. Then I set them in direct sunlight and went out. Much to my delight, when I arrived home around 12:30pm they had doubled! I was hoping, but had my doubts since the 6 hours at room temp the previous day had provided very little rise. I didn't have baking instructions so I baked them at 450F for about 25 minutes. As I removed them I realized I had forgotten to slash them so the look wasn't as good. As someone mentioned upthread, the one that had a tighter skin kept it's shape best. Unfortunately it also had a tunnel along the top. Any ideas why this happened? Aside from that, the flavour and texture were excellent! I will have to keep trying to perfect this skill but am very happy with my first try.

glennbech · May 5, 2006

Great post , and finally some pics
i still have problems with the dough getting stuck to my cloth I think I need to get some rice flour but I didnt see it around at the store , maybe specialized ones?
thank you again for the great post ))
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Thanks! yes, the difference is enourmous. The only thing that is done different between the loaves is that the good one, didn't stick to my cloth!

You should be able to get non-stick with rye flour, maybe you should try my aproach? It's a bit messy but it worked for me. I use a *very* large amount of rye flor and put it on my cloth in a pile in the middle. I then start rubbing it in all over. You can see a picture of it upthread somewhere .-)

My final steps are always like this.

1. After "bulk" fermenting, I take the dough out it's bowl and put it on an oiled surface. I have then prepared my "couche" in advance. My couche is simply a baking bowl, with the floured cloth put on the inside.

2. I try to shape the dough into a ball, knocking it down as little as possible in the process. It always defaltes a great deal during this step, but I guess that's okay.

3. I slip the dough into my couche, put a lid on it, and put it somewhere warm for about 3 hours.

4. I take out my baking peel Home made. It's very ugly, but I build it with my hands :laugh: ) and put a sheet of baking paper on top of my peel.

5. I simply flip my "couche" on top of baking sheet, and remove the cloth (critical step! *grin* lot's of accidents have happened here).

6. Slice with Gilette razors, and slide onto the baking stone using the peel. It's worth noticing that I slide entire thing, including the baking parchment onto the stone! (In case you tried to move the loaf only.... That is probably very difficult!) The parchment can easily take the heat.

7. Sometimes I put a oven save bowl of water in with the loaf. Soetimes I throw cold water at the bottom of the oven... I'm not sure yet what works best. I heard someone are using Ice cubes... Must try that .-)

8. I'll maybe make a "1 day sourdough" tutorial/pictorial when i get my routine in order, and all my facts straight (I've ordered a few good books now, So Im going to get into all the dirty chemistry and biology details here...) :-)

Good luck on the baking!

Edited May 5, 2006 by glennbech (log)

glennbech · May 5, 2006

Just wanted to report back. I don't have a digital camera so I don't have pictures to show.
I took the loaves out of the fridge at about 8:30 am. I put them on a perforated baking sheet and covered the underneath of the pan with foil so the bottom of the loaves wouldn't dry out and loosely covered the tops with saran. The pan was very cold from the loaves so to give it a kick start I put them in the oven with a pan of boiling water on the bottom rack. They were in the oven for maybe 20 minutes. Then I set them in direct sunlight and went out. Much to my delight, when I arrived home around 12:30pm they had doubled! I was hoping, but had my doubts since the 6 hours at room temp the previous day had provided very little rise. I didn't have baking instructions so I baked them at 450F for about 25 minutes. As I removed them I realized I had forgotten to slash them so the look wasn't as good. As someone mentioned upthread, the one that had a tighter skin kept it's shape best. Unfortunately it also had a tunnel along the top. Any ideas why this happened? Aside from that, the flavour and texture were excellent! I will have to keep trying to perfect this skill but am very happy with my first try.
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Im happy to hear that things worked out!

So you removed the dough your baking pan, heated them up a bit, and put the dough back into the pans ?

From my limited experience, It is seems it is possible to get very good rise during proofing even if you take a cold baking pan straight out of the fridge, and just leave it in room temperature for a couple of hours.

Not sure why you got the "tunnel", but i think I know what you mean. I've gotten similar results when using a "dry" dough (60-65%), and folding the dough just before baking. Does this make sense? What happens to the inside of the loaf during baking is still a great mystery to me .-)

Paul Stanley · May 5, 2006

Glennbech: One comment you made set a bell ringing with me--that you are using a bowl as a couche. I have found that this tends to be a problem, because it makes the surface of the dough wet, with the result that it tends to stick to the cloth. I have had much better success using a basket: the dough does not stick so easily, and the surface remains drier. On one occasion, I made two loaves from identical dough, one in a bowl and one in a basket. The one in the basket was perfect. The one in the bowl had a clammy surface and stuck to the cloth, and was very hard to slash, with the inevitable results your pictures demonstrate. This makes sense--the basket can "breathe" in a way the bowl cannot. In a bowl there's nowhere for the moisture at the surface to go, so it remains on the surface or (worse) mixes with the flour on the couche to form a sticky paste.

I have never had a sticking problem with the basket, even though I use only ordinary flour.

I think it is worth getting hold of some baskets. I don't use "proper" bannetons: mine are a couple of very cheap (£1.50) bread baskets I got from a household goods store, and chopped off their handles!

Edited to add: And your second successful loaf of yesterday is absolutely wonderful looking!

Edited May 5, 2006 by Paul Stanley (log)

glennbech · May 5, 2006

I'm getting myself some baskets... Any pointers to online shops? I've been trying to find supplies in Norway without any luck. I can't even find strong flour anywhere.

You've got a real important point here. As you can see the surface of my loaves are extremely dusted with flour. Since I use rye, it actually gives an "off" taste to the crust. I actually "dusted" the loaf after baking .-)

Taste wise, this bread was excellent. Very spongy and even crumb, I'll post pictures later. The only negative thing taste wise, was the thick layer of rye flour on the crust.

Paul Stanley · May 5, 2006

I'm afraid I've no pointers to online sources of baskets: I don't know if Dan Lepard's site might help for proper bannetons, though they are quite expensive I believe. But, as I say, I improvised with a cheap basket originally intended for serving bread, which I line with a cloth. I've also heard a recommendation to try flower shops, because little baskets are sometimes used to present floral displays in.

Desiderio · May 5, 2006

Great great guys hehe all this talking it finally gives me some light here , even if I read books and the forum, it always seems that its a mistery how to get a good breat tecniques etc.

Thank you Glenn , that home made peel is awesomeeeee!!!Hehe I will probably try your routin .

And thank you Paul , about the baskets I had use the bowl as well with the cloth and flour and yes its sticks! I will use a basket I actually have one here that is the right size ,will try with Jackal dose for the white bread see how it works , his bread always seems great looking , I will give it a try .

Thank you guys weee this thread is very cool ))

Edited May 5, 2006 by Desiderio (log)

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