Attack of the clones NYC

[Fat Guy]

On another topic oakapple commented on the "clones of concepts first developed successfully somewhere else" that have been opening in New York City of late. The restaurants he cited as examples were: Per Se, Masa, Buddakan, Morimoto, Lonseome Dove, Gordon Ramsay, Craftsteak, L'Atelier Joel Rubuchon. I'd add a few others. Ducasse, now on hiatus, was I think the first big-deal import of the current crop. This place Sfoglia around the corner from me is an Italian restaurant that apparently came to us via Nantucket. Etc.

It's not strictly a new phenomenon. Nobu and Le Bernardin are both imports, and there are earlier examples I'm sure. Big deal French chefs have tried various projects here before, such as the ill-fated Alain Senderens project at the Parker Meridien. Also, cloning may not be an accurate metaphor because these restaurants can be quite different in their New York incarnations -- French Laundry and Per Se won't easily be confused. Needless to say, the lower levels of restaurants (e.g., Hard Rock Cafe) have been doing this for ages.

Still, there does seem to be a recent cluster of imports large enough to constitute a trend. Perhaps one reason for it is the high cost and high risk of developing restaurant concepts in New York City -- it may be more economically viable to test concepts elsewhere and then bring the best ones here. There may also now be less resistance to imports -- recent patterns of development seem to involve bringing in national chain stores and generally trying to nationalize New York City. I should say I'm not necessarily opposed to that, if it's kept at a reasonable level -- I like having access to both the best of New York and the best of everywhere else.

Any other speculation, comments, etc.?

[Luckylies]

Well, I found myself in Buddakan the other night at a friends invite, and things turned out differenty than I had expected. While I had been there before and sampled some of the food (my office christmas party was there) I still wasn't quite sure of my feelings for the place. I found it pretty but too glitzy, the sortod shiny appeal, that I find seems to appeal to teenager and out of towners but wears thin after your 20th appeltini. Anyhow, I wan't offended by the space, it was nice but not to my taste these days.

After taking our drink orders the waiter launched into a whole spiel about how the portions are "New York sized portions" which I took to mean, small, and accepted, as the nature of the place suggested as much to me and my companions anyhow. The prices on the dimsum menu seemed normal and as to be expected as well as the rest of the menu which was fairly priced.

Imagine my surprise when the food arrived and each dim sum order had 5 pieces on the plate! huge! the tatare must have been 8''x8'' and the frogs legs were quite bounteous, where was this "New York style" plating? well of course later I realised that in most cities these appetizers would still be considered small which is just ridiculous, and the three of us were easily able to share all of them without really wonting for anything. The food was actually quite good. It came out of the kitchen fast (a little too fast for my taste) was tasty (not revelatory but quite solid) and was inexpensive by New york standards for this type of experiance. I may actually go back.

My point of course is that this place is an import, but it obviously has a market here. As New York homogenizes restauranters are more able to predict whether their out of town boite will have an audience here, and these days, especially with the new "meatpacking-type" dining culture the answer is increasingly "yes".

As for the out of town foreign chefs it seems like an obvious choice that if something big works in another great metropolis, why not clone it? More money, more recogition, less pain. Developing a restaurant concept and getting backers can take years-why not skip the shit the second time around and just jump to the fun stuff, like raking in cash and schmoozing tableside. Restaurants are businesses, businesses are capitalists, capitalists come to New York. Sucess in the industry is measured by certain rulers, don't let any of those out-of-towners tell you different.

It's New York or bust.

long post, I can't spell, whatcha gonna do?

[markabauman]

Might there be an analogy to Broadway theater, where it is so expensive to put on a production that people are afraid to take chances and stick to known formulas? Uniqueness, experimentation and true creativity are relegated to off-off Broadway. Seems the same with the restaurant biz. Slightly different from the copycat phenomenon (another Tuscan trattoria anyone?).

[Sneakeater]

Yeah. That's why there's a Brooklyn. (Or at least, there used to be a Brooklyn.)

[oakapple]

Perhaps one reason for it is the high cost and high risk of developing restaurant concepts in New York City -- it may be more economically viable to test concepts elsewhere and then bring the best ones here.

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In most of the cited examples, I don't think the origiinal restaurant wasn't developed as a "test." But it so happened that when it was successful, a New York version was deemed a logical next step.

[Fat Guy]

The way I see it, any opening that introduces a new restaurant concept is by definition a test of that concept. And such tests are cheaper to conduct in Chicago and Philadelphia than in New York.

[MarkIsCooking]

I totally agree that NYC is a hard place to test a concept due to cost. There's also this. NYC has such an enormous number of restaurants and NYC diners are so discriminating, that the odds of something being tested in NYC winning is so small. Plus, new concepts need to be tried, honed, reworked, etc. I think NYC tends to give something a try and if it's not a winner, it's very very hard to get people back (as things evolve).

Agree?

-Mark-

[H. du Bois]

Might there be an analogy to Broadway theater, where it is so expensive to put on a production that people are afraid to take chances and stick to known formulas? Uniqueness, experimentation and true creativity are relegated to off-off Broadway. Seems the same with the restaurant biz. Slightly different from the copycat phenomenon (another Tuscan trattoria anyone?).

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They used to take plays on the road before they hit Broadway for precisely that reason - worked all the kinks out before they made their official debut. Makes good economic sense.

[KatieLoeb]

The way I see it, any opening that introduces a new restaurant concept is by definition a test of that concept. And such tests are cheaper to conduct in Chicago and Philadelphia than in New York.

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Right. As was the case with Buddakan and Morimoto. Everyone wondered why Iron Chef Morimoto would want to come to Philly, of all places. It was because he was offered a place with his name on the front door that someone else put up the money for. Seems like a great deal to me.

[oakapple]

The way I see it, any opening that introduces a new restaurant concept is by definition a test of that concept. And such tests are cheaper to conduct in Chicago and Philadelphia than in New York.

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...and...

They used to take plays on the road before they hit Broadway for precisely that reason - worked all the kinks out before they made their official debut.  Makes good economic sense.

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I agree with FG that any new concept could be called a "test." But Broadway roadshows were virtually always undertaken with the intention of bringing the show to New York fairly promptly if it was successful. This is not common in the restaurant industry, and indeed, I can't think of an example offhand.

[Nathan]

put it this way:

with the arguable exception of Chodorow (who tends to open his chain restaurants elsewhere than NY first), there aren't too many cases of NY based restauranteurs opening restaurants in other cities and then eventually bringing them to NY.

rather, restauranteurs of successful restaurants in other cities often eventually open up in NY as well. but those restauranteurs are not based here. thus the Broadway analogy is inapposite.

[Sneakeater]

I'm sorry if this is too trivial, but just as a point of fact as to one example that's been advanced here, did the Le Cozes open a branch of the Paris Le Bernadin in New York, or move operations here? I always thought it was the latter. If I was supposed to know that a Le Bernadin remains open in Paris, I apologize for my ignorance.

Also, have they opened other "Le Bernadin"s elsewhere in the U.S.? I know about the Brasseries Le Coze in Atlanta and, formerly, Coconut Grove. But are there any other Bernadins? I thought not.

I'll make the import of this clearer if it turns out I'm right on the facts.

Edited January 8, 2007 by Sneakeater (log)

[Nathan]

The Paris LB was kept open while the NY one was opened.

However, shortly after the Le Cozes sold the Paris LB to concentrate on the NY one (they may have needed the cash as well).

There are no other LBs...Madame Le Coze has a financial interest in the Atlanta Le Coze (currently not open as its moving from its location in the Lenox Square mall) and had one in the defunct Coconut Grove location, but my understanding is that Ripert has no involvement in the Brassiere Le Coze operation.

Edited January 8, 2007 by Nathan (log)

[Fat Guy]

According to John Mariani, "Upon opening in New York in 1986, the Le Cozes kept the Paris original going for a while but closed it when it became impossible to maintain both at their self-imposed high standards."

Also, Eric Ripert recently did two restaurants for Ritz-Carlton in Grand Cayman. Not named Le Bernardin, though.

[Nathan]

according to the LB website, they sold it. under what name it operated under after that I don't know.

http://www.le-bernardin.com/lecoze.html

[Sneakeater]

So then my point is that there's a distinction to be made between opening various branches of "concept" restaurants and just opening your restaurant in another location (usually moving it).

I don't think Le Bernadin really fits into the current model. Places like Morimoto, Buddhakan, etc., are concepts as much as they're restaurants. You can tell that they were sort of made to be cloned. Same applies to Atelier Robuchon. And while the Ramsay places look more like normal restaurants, it's really a TV-certified "brand." They didn't even have that in the 80s.

I guess what I'm saying is that I think it's more the "concept" part than the "branch" part that we (or at least I) tend to object to. The new breed of "cloned" "concept" restaurants are places that appear to have no felt need to exist: they're just marketing concepts. I think that's what people find objectionable about them, not that they're originally from outside the City. (Indeed, I think that this is the root of many people's skepticism about the new Russian Tea Room, which is as indigenous as they come: it seems so clear that it was developed more as a brand exploitation than because Gary Robins had any real desire to cook Russian-inflected food.) (Indeed, I continue to contend that this is the primary reason why Del Posto has yet to be embraced by the New York foodie community: it, too, seems more like a pure marketing concept --and not a very good one -- than like anything Batali and Bastianich felt "had" to be done.)

(I don't think Sfoglia really fits into this discussion either.)

Edited January 8, 2007 by Sneakeater (log)

[oakapple]

I guess what I'm saying is that I think it's more the "concept" part than the "branch" part that we (or at least I) tend to object to.  The new breed of "cloned" "concept" restaurants are places that appear to have no felt need to exist:  they're just marketing concepts.  I think that's what people find objectionable about them, not that they're originally from outside the City.  (Indeed, I think that this is the root of many people's skepticism about the new Russian Tea Room, which is as indigenous as they come:  it seems so clear that it was developed more as a brand exploitation than because Gary Robins had any real desire to cook Russian-inflected food.)  (Indeed, I continue to contend that this is the primary reason why Del Posto has yet to be embraced by the New York foodie community:  it, too, seems more like a pure marketing concept --and not a very good one -- than like anything Batali and Bastianich felt "had" to be done.)

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One must be careful about retroactive definitions. There aren't many restaurants that "feel the need to exist" before they actually exist.

Per Se was very much a concept designed to piggy-back on The French Laundry's already legendary reputation. It worked because: A) The marketing wasn't perceived as blatantly exploitative (though, make no mistake, it was there in the background); and B) Per Se was simply damned good.

Morimoto, Buddakan and Del Posto all suffered from marketing hype that was very clearly over-the-top. For the first two, you had Stephen Starr ludicrously telling the Times that he would teach New Yorkers what a good restaurant is about. For Del Posto you had Batali and Bastianich pre-emptively announcing that they were gunning for four stars. Per Se wasn't any less deliberate in its intentions, but it was a whole lot smarter about the execution.

Having said all that, Buddakan and Del Posto won reasonably favorable critical notices. We are almost getting over the cynical marketing hype that surrounded them.

I agree that the idea of Gary Robins cooking Russian food seems bizarre, but the poor reviews for The Russian Team Room are the result of fundamental problems (slow, sloppy service; inconsistent work in the kitchen) that would be unacceptable at any restaurant that serves $40 entrees.

[MarkIsCooking]

I believe that LB exited all other locations before they put $$$ into converting the upstairs at the NYC LB into "Salons" for private functions.

[larrylee]

Sneakeater:

You were saying that you objected to "concepts" more than "branches." For me the real issue lies behind the intent of a restaurant, regardless of its concept or pre-existing branches. Ninja New York, for example... I can't think of a reason to visit. Hawaiian Tropic Zone and Buddakan can go into the same bucket. L'Atelier? I'm glad it's here and I was more than pleased with the meal I had. Too bad it doesn't have the more informal feel of the Tokyo branch (complete with take-out bakery). Morimoto - I haven't eaten at the vaunted omakase bar but the freshness of the sashimi alone justifies its existence. I'm not trying to deny any chef or restauranteur success, these are just my preferences.

Also, I might be reading you wrong in another post, but I'm not sure I agree (corrected) that Brooklyn is the restaurant incubator for Manhattan. Having said that, I don't have a profound knowledge of Brooklyn-born restaurants that "hit it big" and moved into Manhattan. However, consider Blue Ribbon, which started in Manhattan and moved into Brooklyn. Also, until recently, I think Brooklyn was generally considered a culinary void in terms of high caliber restaurants.

Generally speaking, to a certain degree I'm not that excited about the spread of restaurants/brands. Theoretically, I like the idea that there are unique restaurants that are only available in one place, or locale. Peter Luger's on the Strip? Shudder. I prefer to play up the differences across the country to make it a greater whole. Give people a reason to go somewhere else to try something new. Not only that, but consider Tom Colicchio's retrenchment. There's only so many clones you can make before something suffers.

Edited January 9, 2007 by larrylee (log)

[Sneakeater]

For the record, I didn't mean to state that Brooklyn was the restaurant incubator for Manhattan. I meant that it was a place where chef-owners were more able than in Manhattan to follow their own wishes because fixed costs were lower. If anything, chef-owners would escape TO Brooklyn from Manhattan -- not work their up to Manhattan from Brooklyn.* (I am ONLY talking within the last several years.) Now, unfortunately, Brooklyn seems to be developing something of a cookie-cutter style.

In other words, the analogy would be Brooklyn's Off-Broadway to Manhanttan's Broadway (rather than Brooklyn's being the old preview circuit to Manhattan's Broadway).

_____________________________________________________

* Yeah yeah, before someone else points it out, I know about Hubert's in the 80s.

Edited January 9, 2007 by Sneakeater (log)

[Todd36]

At least at the lower end of the market, this isn't new. Horn & Hardart, the classic NYC Automat, first opened in 1912, after first opening in Phildelphia. Schrafft's seems to have started in Boston, although you would think of it as a NYC chain.

[Fat Guy]

While searching for something else today I saw that Frank Bruni did a "Critic's Notebook" piece on this phenomenon in September, titled "Making It There Before They Make It Here."

He makes a number of interesting comments, and one of his main conclusions is right along the lines of what we're talking about here: "many of the chefs and restaurateurs who can best afford to open here — to take the gamble — are those whose food and concepts have already made them saints elsewhere. They’ve gone through out-of-town tryouts."

There's also a warning that perhaps New York's center of the American culinary universe status will be challenged:

Vegas does not only have versions of many prominent New York restaurants, it also has a restaurant by the French chef Guy Savoy, who has never gone into business in New York City. And it has several restaurants by the San Francisco chef Michael Mina. He also finally expanded to the East Coast three months ago and landed not in New York but in Atlantic City. At times it’s hard not to feel as if our bragging rights are endangered, as if we’re just one possible business climate, and not necessarily the most temperate one.

He also catches a few examples we missed, like Koi (originally LA) and Japonais (originally Chicago).

Definitely worth reading.

[larrylee]

There's also a warning that perhaps New York's center of the American culinary universe status will be challenged:

Related: David Chang's comments from this New York Mag story, pointed out in this post from the Ssam Bar thread:

And here you have people in Las Vegas who want you there, who want to help you.

What a revolutionary idea. After having travelled abroad a bit in 2006, I think that the "concept" of "good, tasty, well prepared food without breaking the bank" is a great idea for New York and for America in general. I'm glad New York can generate buzz around smaller places like Little Owl, Momofuku and not just the elite or big-box venues.