Help Me Define the "South"

[Carrot Top]

I remember writing something several years ago in another thread about the South, about the manners of tall glasses of water and please thank you sir and ma'am - and being met by surprise by at least one person who was a born and bred Southerner (uh, yeah, of course y'all know I'm not - Yankees being a thing that as someone said above they could *definitely* recognize ).

I think it was Dignan who said it, though it was a couple of years ago. He was surprised at what I described for it was more like the South of his youth - he said you "couldn't hardly find that sort of thing anymore".

There's a certain romanticism that occurs in the idea of the South. I've lived in parts of the South where really, there were no glasses of water ready for anyone - be they the next door neighbor that hailed from "another part of the South" or, that thing one stretches the smile a bit to be sure it's pasted on in the right manner, a Yankee.

Southerners and their foods share some parts of a common heritage, particularly the food that emerged that was grown in these areas. Yet this thing of being Southern as defined by manners might be something that might be harder to find in some areas more than others.

I found this idea of the South expressed as a reality (the tall glass of water idea) in a rather untouched rural area that I lived in. Even there, though, there are plenty of human beings who do *not* ascribe to the idea of tall glasses of water offered to whomever passes by. People from the South are as individual as the rest of the world, and as subject to their likes/dislikes/inclusions and exclusions of other people. Yankees, Horsetraders and the Unchurched in particular being things that the glass of water does not come out to quite as immediately or quite as willingly perhaps.

I do know that the idea of defining the South as the Confederate States solely can make some Southerners skin crawl (and not in a pleasant fashion), based on their own background.

There's the tall glass of water on one side here, and some facts that do state otherwise in reality on the other side here.

If the tall glass of water were to be made real, in every part of the South for every person and *from* every person, then I'd agree with it as a definer. I wish I could think of it as definer - that would be so wonderful.

So, for me, I can't agree with the "tall glass of water" as definer and *won't* agree with the idea of the Confederate States as definer, for I think that idea of definer starts with some important exclusions of people that did live there then as being included as equal partners and that bothers me.

'Course I'm just a Yankee so none of this really matters.

The South is a romantic idea.

A great thing when you can find it.

...................................................................................

Back to the food as singular focus, I have to say there's a lot I agree with in what Maggie wrote in an earlier post:

Hang on to your flowery hats, you charmin' darlins' : My grandmother in Southwestern Ontario, cooked all those "Southern" specialties, including grits, though they were called cornmeal mush. She grew okra on the farm and catfish swam in the muddy depths of local streams. With the exception of some Creole and Cajun stuff and barbecue, Gammy's recipe file looks identical to any Miss Louella's.

Ham. Biscuits. Ambrosia. Chicken and Dumplings. Fried chicken. Coconut cream pie -- and cake. Mac and cheese. Chow chow. Cobblers, peach and otherwise. Pecan pie. Deviled eggs. Turnip and mustard greens, green beans in pot liqour. She had those shelves stacked with Southern writers invariably call "jewel like" preserves.

I thought this was Canadian farmhouse cooking -- and it was. It's farm cooking for huge stretches of North America. Establishing the geographical boundaries of the South is obviously up for debate, but I'm not going to dispute Southern Food Culture -- I've experienced many of the things on this humorous list myself.

I'm not arguing the culture or the weather, I'm actually (Heretic!) arguing the food. Most of the stuff eaten on a picnic table under a mossy oak is eaten on a picnic table under a maple tree.

Edited December 21, 2006 by Carrot Top (log)

[annecros]

Even when a Southerner does not participate in the "tall glass of water" ritual, they usually know what it means when someone turns the phrase, and understands the intent and meaning if not the origin of the phrase. Sure things change, they always do and always will.

Re-arguing the War of Northern Aggression (and the stimulus behind the seccession of the southern states was complex and not as one dimensional as one would think sometimes) is silly. The CSA lost. But there is no arguing that the Civil War was, and still is, a huge determining factor in creating the subset of the population that is Southern. Both by those who identify themselves as Southern, and those who reside outside of the South who identify others as Southern.

The food is really just food. Its the shared ritual within a group that makes it Southern, and associates those people termed Southern by themselves and others, that makes it Southern Food. One of the most Southernlike experiences I have ever had was in California. I was eating crab. I would have never identified them as Southern, and they certainly wouldn't self identify as such. But they certainly pegged me as Southern, and without a smirk.

Southern African Americans are just as Southern as Southern "white" people, as are Southern Hispanics, and Southern Native Americans etc., etc. I think that complexity in the culture, and the interaction within subgroups, is one of the things very nice about the South. It bothers me when race is interjected into the Southern debate, but it inevitably is interjected and almost always by those who are not Southern. It only serves to feed inaccurate, blanket, negative preconceptions and stereotypes of the South, and I would like to think we would be long be past that, but I suppose that the sins of a minority of the Southern population many generations ago is the stigmata we must bear for a few more generaions. The majority of the population of my home town would probably self identify as African American. Each one would probably self identify as Southern as well. My parent's, grandparent's, and extended family's households were honestly color blind. Believe it or not. It would have been rude, and just plain wrong, not to be.

[Pan]

Anne, I grew up with a fictive grandmother who was definitely a Southerner. She was a Baptist from Mississippi, and she's the one who introduced me to soul food (aka Southern food) like sweet potato pie, cobbler, shortbread, collard greens, etc. You're right; there's no question that there is a type of Southern cooking that is recognized by white and black Southerners alike. This New Yorker knows it.

[robyn]

It bothers me when race is interjected into the Southern debate, but it inevitably is interjected and almost always by those who are not Southern. It only serves to feed inaccurate, blanket, negative preconceptions and stereotypes of the South, and I would like to think we would be long be past that, but I suppose that the sins of a minority of the Southern population many generations ago is the stigmata we must bear for a few more generaions. The majority of the population of my home town would probably self identify as African American. Each one would probably self identify as Southern as well. My parent's, grandparent's, and extended family's households were honestly color blind. Believe it or not. It would have been rude, and just plain wrong, not to be.

←

Sorry to disagree about your "the past is the past" statement - but the school desegregation case in the area where I live (near Jacksonville Florida) was only over and dismissed in 1999. That is hardly ancient history.

These days of course - desegregation cases would be silly - because people simply avoid desegregation by moving to counties like mine (1 county south of Jacksonville) where the population is largely white - or sending their kids to private schools.

Not that the north is any different. I lived in Boston and Philadelphia before I moved to Miami - and then the Jacksonville area - and their schools are no more desegregated than ours.

Of course - there is housing segregation too. And anyone who doubts that just has to look at the congressional districts in Florida (both those that are drawn so only white people will be elected - and those that are drawn so only black people will be elected).

Just because different people eat the same kinds of foods doesn't mean that they have a whole lot to do with one another in everyday social life. And that goes not only for race - it goes for religion too. Can't tell you how many people I know (including family members) who changed their religions to Baptist to fit in socially in the south. These are basically Christian people (Catholics and Protestants of other denominations). Being Jewish - it never entered my mind to become a Baptist so I'd have a better social life. Robyn

[Varmint]

Folks, let's keep the discussion focused on the South from a culinary perspective. I recognize that this matter requires discussion of topics that go beyond the gastronomic heritage, and I encourage everyone to bring their perspective to the table, but we need not stray too far and get in a purely political debate.

Thanks!

[annecros]

Anne, I grew up with a fictive grandmother who was definitely a Southerner. She was a Baptist from Mississippi, and she's the one who introduced me to soul food (aka Southern food) like sweet potato pie, cobbler, shortbread, collard greens, etc. You're right; there's no question that there is a type of Southern cooking that is recognized by white and black Southerners alike. This New Yorker knows it.

←

There's nothing like a Grandma - fictive, foster or functional - to tie the heart and the hearth together.

I'm glad you had that experience. Deep down, many of us Southerner's are just defending our Grandma's and Grandaddy's, all of our Grandma's and Grandaddy's.

Anne

[annecros]

It bothers me when race is interjected into the Southern debate, but it inevitably is interjected and almost always by those who are not Southern. It only serves to feed inaccurate, blanket, negative preconceptions and stereotypes of the South, and I would like to think we would be long be past that, but I suppose that the sins of a minority of the Southern population many generations ago is the stigmata we must bear for a few more generaions. The majority of the population of my home town would probably self identify as African American. Each one would probably self identify as Southern as well. My parent's, grandparent's, and extended family's households were honestly color blind. Believe it or not. It would have been rude, and just plain wrong, not to be.

←

Sorry to disagree about your "the past is the past" statement -

←

No need to apologize. We just have different perspectives.

Now, how do you feel about fried chicken and collard greens? What about the theory that if you parked enough pickup trucks loaded with coolers of beer in the parking lot of the United Nations, and put some pork and chicken on the grill out there, all the world's problems would be solved on a long afternoon?

I've seen a lot of fueds resolved holding down the bed of a pickup truck...

Edited December 22, 2006 by annecros (log)

[NYC Mike]

We've been wondering how race factors into the food culture of the south especially considering the very strong slave influences. What we have found so far in the few "native" peope we have met is that the food itself seems transcends race, it is more part of a shared experience that goes back many generations. So in that regards geographical history or American history of the south seems to be the best qualifier.

I'll agree with an above poster about racism being alive and well in the south, as anywhere else in the US. But, funny enough my hispanic wife experiences it for the most part from transplants (which make up the majority in my area it seems), the native people in general have made moving down here socially wonderful. :-)

Reminds me of something my friend who was born and raised in Agusta once told me when describing the difference between north and south. In NYC we are taught in school about "The Civil War". When I mentioned this to my friend he laughed and said "we don't call it that, there was nothing Civil about that war."

[Carrot Top]

It was not my intention to *focus* on racism, at all. Nor to say that it existed more in the South than anywhere else. Anyone that has read my previous writings on the South might realize that, but more than that they might realize my very deep and very warm feelings about the place (and, as the place to me is the people, the people). Moreso even, the people that most "outsiders" might not ever get a chance to meet, those who do live and who have lived in the rural pockets of the South that maintain more of a certain personality or culture of individualism, possibly, that those who live in cities or suburbs, as in those places there are many transplants that shift the sense of the place, bringing in their own ways of being and doing. In particular, if you read this piece you might find in it more of a cultural defense of the South as a final result than even a discussion of Gourmet magazine.

*But* I was having a feeling about two things that made me write what I did. First, the repetition of the phrase that the boundaries of the War were what should define the South. Personally, I think one can *always* find more positive boundaries than a War to define any area at all, unless one wants to focus on the War every time the place is thought of.

To me, there are so many better things about the South than that war. I've had wars of sorts in my own life, and I don't choose to define myself by them, either, for in ways they seem to make me lesser rather than more. They are part of me, a big part - but *not* what I want to be remembered by. That is my own way of wishing to be. Just my opinion. Other's mileage may vary.

It also seems to me that sugar-coating or pretty-ing up of things, romanticising them beyond their means, might be dangerous in a long-term way to anything. The culture of manners is a marvellous thing in the South, *but* to make it seem as if it were everywhere at all times might lead to *expectations* for those that do not know the South well. . .and when they do visit, if those expectations are not met for whatever reason, disappointment could follow. Better, I think, to say that a glass of water (to use the metaphor) is a magical yet true part of the culture that one *might* find, rather than promise that they will find it. Then, that truly wonderful gift that is given in times and places that happen when they happen, will be a real gift, not an expected prettiness, not a tap-dance done for those who wait to see it.

I delved into rhetoric further when adding my two cents to Maggie's comments. I do agree with the *general idea* of her post (while knowing that of course there are certain foods that say "the South" to most people at all times and places), but more than that I was trying to make a point.

Making a character out of oneself or out of one's culture, though manners and foodstuffs, is a two-edged sword. It can backfire when done too insistently, for human nature will rebel at the continued insistence of a theatrical sort.

In hopes that this leaves my intent clearer,

Karen (who has lived here ten years now and who yet will never be considered a "Southerner", most likely, unless a whole lot of moonshine happens to confuse someone for a brief moment or so. . .)

[robyn]

No need to apologize. We just have different perspectives.

Now, how do you feel about fried chicken and collard greens? What about the theory that if you parked enough pickup trucks loaded with coolers of beer in the parking lot of the United Nations, and put some pork and chicken on the grill out there, all the world's problems would be solved on a long afternoon?

I've seen a lot of fueds resolved holding down the bed of a pickup truck...

←

I like collards and fried chicken - but rarely eat them in restaurants because they're usually way too salty. Also - fried chicken is really not a great thing to eat that often. I do make collards at home - which I think are much better than those I find in restaurants (won't tackle fried chicken at home - too much of a mess).

I think it would take more than pork and chicken to resolve the problems with the United Nations . Robyn

[annecros]

We've been wondering how race factors into the food culture of the south especially considering the very strong slave influences.  What we have found so far in the few "native" peope we have met is that the food itself seems transcends race, it is more part of a shared experience that goes back many generations.  So in that regards geographical history or American history of the south seems to be the best qualifier.

I'll agree with an above poster about racism being alive and well in the south, as anywhere else in the US.  But, funny enough my hispanic wife experiences it for the most part from transplants (which make up the majority in my area it seems), the native people in general have made moving down here socially wonderful. :-)

Reminds me of something my friend who was born and raised in Agusta once told me when describing the difference between north and south.  In NYC we are taught in school about "The Civil War".  When I mentioned this to my friend he laughed and said "we don't call it that, there was nothing Civil about that war."

←

Interesting in that you say that the food (which is very much a foundation of the southern culture) transcends race, but that you find racism alive and well. But then again the racism is predominately experienced via "transplants" into the culture.

There was nothing civil about that war, excepting that it occured in our own house. A family feud, that white southern people, who cannot help being born, are required to bear the consequences of for several generations.

I think, and this is my opinion only, that the southern stereotype needs to be put where it belongs, away. Branding a person as hateful, ignorant, and uncaring hurts. It hurts me when others make that judgement based upon my skin color and accent.

I have personally found the south very inclusive. Your milage may vary. As it does anywhere in the world. But as a whole?

Greens and cornbread are a perfect food.

[annecros]

*But* I was having a feeling about two things that made me write what I did. First, the repetition of the phrase that the boundaries of the War were what should define the South. Personally, I think one can *always* find more positive boundaries than a War to define any area at all, unless one wants to focus on the War every time the place is thought of.

To me, there are so many better things about the South than that war. I've had wars of sorts in my own life, and I don't choose to define myself by them, either, for in ways they seem to make me lesser rather than more. They are part of me, a big part - but *not* what I want to be remembered by. That is my own way of wishing to be. Just my opinion. Other's mileage may vary.

It also seems to me that sugar-coating or pretty-ing up of things, romanticising them beyond their means, might be dangerous in a long-term way to anything. The culture of manners is a marvellous thing in the South, *but* to make it seem as if it were everywhere at all times might lead to *expectations* for those that do not know the South well. . .and when they do visit, if those expectations are not met for whatever reason, disappointment could follow. Better, I think, to say that a glass of water (to use the metaphor) is a magical yet true part of the culture that one *might* find, rather than promise that they will find it. Then, that truly wonderful gift that is given in times and places that happen when they happen, will be a real gift, not an expected prettiness, not a tap-dance done for those who wait to see it.

Snip

Making a character out of oneself or out of one's culture, though manners and foodstuffs, is a two-edged sword. It can backfire when done too insistently, for human nature will rebel at the continued insistence of a theatrical sort.

In hopes that this leaves my intent clearer,

Karen (who has lived here ten years now and who yet will never be considered a "Southerner", most likely, unless a whole lot of moonshine happens to confuse someone for a brief moment or so. . .)

←

Is it not a double edged sword to expect and assume the worst of people? Just because you are at a specific exit number on I-95 that you can assume that stupidity and ignorance reign?

Setting the bar low, is patronizing in and of itself. It is a poor assumption. Every individual is entitled to set their own standards of behaviour, without prejudice based upon skin color or the fact that they can make a mean cornbread or burst from the womb knowing how to fry chicken.

Karen, I have personally found you to be a very sweet natured open minded person. That in itself gives you the right to call yourself southern.

I will back you up, and I have the moral authority!

After all, we even defend our crazy aunts...

[annecros]

No need to apologize. We just have different perspectives.

Now, how do you feel about fried chicken and collard greens? What about the theory that if you parked enough pickup trucks loaded with coolers of beer in the parking lot of the United Nations, and put some pork and chicken on the grill out there, all the world's problems would be solved on a long afternoon?

I've seen a lot of fueds resolved holding down the bed of a pickup truck...

←

I like collards and fried chicken - but rarely eat them in restaurants because they're usually way too salty. Also - fried chicken is really not a great thing to eat that often. I do make collards at home - which I think are much better than those I find in restaurants (won't tackle fried chicken at home - too much of a mess).

I think it would take more than pork and chicken to resolve the problems with the United Nations . Robyn

←

Nobody in the south eats fried chicken "that" often. It is quite the treat, and worth the cleanup.

But you are getting there in cooking the foods at home. Home cooked is always better. Pity the poor souls waiting in line at Lady and Son's and understand that they just can't do it for themselves. Almost crippling.

I think if the UN focused upon simpler things, as in nourishment, they might be able to make a more positive impact upon the world.

I like ya Robyn. You've got spunk.

[Carrot Top]

Is it not a double edged sword to expect and assume the worst of people? Just because you are at a specific exit number on I-95 that you can assume that stupidity and ignorance reign?

Setting the bar low, is patronizing in and of itself. It is a poor assumption. Every individual is entitled to set their own standards of behaviour, without prejudice based upon skin color or the fact that they can make a mean cornbread or burst from the womb knowing how to fry chicken.

Karen, I have personally found you to be a very sweet natured open minded person. That in itself gives you the right to call yourself southern.

I will back you up, and I have the moral authority! 

After all, we even defend our crazy aunts...

←

I'm not so sure that attitude of assumption of ignorance reigning because of an exit number on the highway exists as much as it might have in years past, Anne. There are so many people that have travelled the highways so very much that surely the ones that think this way are a *very* small number. One hopes. Plus, you know, we've had several Presidents of the United States with accents in their voices that say "Deep South" and regardless of one's thinking on their individual "performance" as President, it does take a bit of a Top Dog in some way to get to that seat.

As for your other question, yes, almost everything is a double-edged sword, actually, looked at close enough. I run to metaphors for fun quite often when I write. Please forgive me, dear lady, and if you will, say quietly to the computer screen, "Bless her heart".

( )

P.S. I intend to get crazier the older I get. I figure that's a preogative of age, no matter whether north or south of whatever line one chooses. Hope you'll still defend me?

.................................................

Now I just got back from the west coast of Florida. It was Southern, but not Southern like here in old Virginny. The food was different, as was the sun and the soil. Darn it, but I was glad to come home to my *own* particular twang of accented voice and my own variety of foods available. (Oops. Erase that last part. We grow beef here, not seafood, and to my mind seafood just doesn't travel well far past the dock, in some vital way. )

[annecros]

Is it not a double edged sword to expect and assume the worst of people? Just because you are at a specific exit number on I-95 that you can assume that stupidity and ignorance reign?

Setting the bar low, is patronizing in and of itself. It is a poor assumption. Every individual is entitled to set their own standards of behaviour, without prejudice based upon skin color or the fact that they can make a mean cornbread or burst from the womb knowing how to fry chicken.

Karen, I have personally found you to be a very sweet natured open minded person. That in itself gives you the right to call yourself southern.

I will back you up, and I have the moral authority! 

After all, we even defend our crazy aunts...

←

I'm not so sure that attitude of assumption of ignorance reigning because of an exit number on the highway exists as much as it might have in years past, Anne. There are so many people that have travelled the highways so very much that surely the ones that think this way are a *very* small number. One hopes. Plus, you know, we've had several Presidents of the United States with accents in their voices that say "Deep South" and regardless of one's thinking on their individual "performance" as President, it does take a bit of a Top Dog in some way to get to that seat.

As for your other question, yes, almost everything is a double-edged sword, actually, looked at close enough. I run to metaphors for fun quite often when I write. Please forgive me, dear lady, and if you will, say quietly to the computer screen, "Bless her heart".

( )

P.S. I intend to get crazier the older I get. I figure that's a preogative of age, no matter whether north or south of whatever line one chooses. Hope you'll still defend me?

.................................................

Now I just got back from the west coast of Florida. It was Southern, but not Southern like here in old Virginny. The food was different, as was the sun and the soil. Darn it, but I was glad to come home to my *own* particular twang of accented voice and my own variety of foods available. (Oops. Erase that last part. We grow beef here, not seafood, and to my mind seafood just doesn't travel well far past the dock, in some vital way. )

←

Isn't it interesting that even those Presidential sorts in recent years who are not Southern, have adopted southern accents and mannerisms? It is an interesting phenomenon, and somehow a person, though powerful, is perceived to have a "common" touch I think when they talk slow - with a crap eating grin!

Once we get to a "certain" age, darling, forgiveness and defense is neither sought nor necessary, but I do have your back.

Oh man, if you were here last week, you surely enjoyed our sunshine and warm temps! I planted two rose bushes on Christmas Day, and they are already showing new growth. BBQ today as well. I really love it down here.

There are definitely gradients of southern in the south. Keeps things interesting.

[Varmint]

Just another reminder, y'all: this is a food-oriented forum. While I'll allow a little latitude on the scope of this discussion because its very nature requires concepts that are not culinary in nature, we're getting too personal and political. If I have to step in again, I'll just end the discussion. If you have something new and relevant to add, please do so.

Thanks.

[NYC Mike]

Interesting in that you say that the food (which is very much a foundation of the southern culture) transcends race, but that you find racism alive and well. But then again the racism is predominately experienced via "transplants" into the culture.

There was nothing civil about that war, excepting that it occured in our own house. A family feud, that white southern people, who cannot help being born, are required to bear the consequences of for several generations.

I think, and this is my opinion only, that the southern stereotype needs to be put where it belongs, away. Branding a person as hateful, ignorant, and uncaring hurts. It hurts me when others make that judgement based upon my skin color and accent.

I have personally found the south very inclusive. Your milage may vary. As it does anywhere in the world. But as a whole?

Greens and cornbread are a perfect food.

I agree with you 100% re: the southern stereotype and where it needs to be put. Essentially, that was the point I was trying to make. Northerners, including my NYC family have this very ABC Mini-Series impression of "The South" which couldn't be more inaccurate. What I meant to say (after re-reading myself I wasn't sure if it came out this way) is that there is no more racism in the South than anywhere else in the world (being an interacial family we speak from experience) and to the contrary the people we have met in Georgia that have generational roots here are some of the nicest and open people we have ever met.

Never before have we met a "people" who are so interested in knowing each other on such a deep and personal level and its been wonderful. I've said this before, in NYC, a good neighbor is the one you never hear and never know of.

I think the food culture itself lends itself to this "get to know you" vibe or aura or what you'll call it. Its almost like a slow walk, or the very opposite of the US fast food culture.

As for greens, I've only eaten them in a restaurant. We hope to brave making them ourselves very soon, if only to try and make pot liker. As for cornbread, my breakfast today was it in a bowl of milk, it was perfect.

[annecros]

Interesting in that you say that the food (which is very much a foundation of the southern culture) transcends race, but that you find racism alive and well. But then again the racism is predominately experienced via "transplants" into the culture.

There was nothing civil about that war, excepting that it occured in our own house. A family feud, that white southern people, who cannot help being born, are required to bear the consequences of for several generations.

I think, and this is my opinion only, that the southern stereotype needs to be put where it belongs, away. Branding a person as hateful, ignorant, and uncaring hurts. It hurts me when others make that judgement based upon my skin color and accent.

I have personally found the south very inclusive. Your milage may vary. As it does anywhere in the world. But as a whole?

Greens and cornbread are a perfect food.

I agree with you 100% re: the southern stereotype and where it needs to be put. Essentially, that was the point I was trying to make. Northerners, including my NYC family have this very ABC Mini-Series impression of "The South" which couldn't be more inaccurate. What I meant to say (after re-reading myself I wasn't sure if it came out this way) is that there is no more racism in the South than anywhere else in the world (being an interacial family we speak from experience) and to the contrary the people we have met in Georgia that have generational roots here are some of the nicest and open people we have ever met.

Never before have we met a "people" who are so interested in knowing each other on such a deep and personal level and its been wonderful. I've said this before, in NYC, a good neighbor is the one you never hear and never know of.

I think the food culture itself lends itself to this "get to know you" vibe or aura or what you'll call it. Its almost like a slow walk, or the very opposite of the US fast food culture.

As for greens, I've only eaten them in a restaurant. We hope to brave making them ourselves very soon, if only to try and make pot liker. As for cornbread, my breakfast today was it in a bowl of milk, it was perfect.

←

Oh man! You haven't cooked greens in your own home yourself! I am shocked NYCMike.

The collards should be absolutely lovely there in Atlanta right now. I would hold off on the turnips and mustard until early spring though. Don't even think about buying that precut stuff in a bag, it is obscene, and you just don't taste the dirt and life in them like you do with the whole.

Those spring greens (mustard especially but turnips too) are amazing, young sweet and tender. Collards are usually better with a little cold weather on them, not as bitter.

My mother recalls a family that was put out of their home during the depression. They dug up the collards and piled them on a wagon and paraded out of town with them, along with small furnishings and family pictures of course. You will never starve if you have collards and cornbread. Looking up the nutrional information will clue you in to this most perfect of foods. My mom's favorite dessert was a glass of buttermilk with cornbread crumbled into it. Nothing wrong with that.

Let us know when you drop the hock in the water. A pressure cooker is helpful when cooking collards as well, but it is good and good for you regardless.

I come from an interracial family as well. We always had room at the table, if that's not too personal.

You have to eat, ya know.

[srhcb]

You will never starve if you have collards and cornbread. Looking up the nutrional information will clue you in to this most perfect of foods.

←

While I've never been south of the Mason-Dixon line and east of the Mississippi at the same time, (a character defect I intend to remedy soon!), I have it on good authority that one of the defining characteristics of a north/south orientation is whether or not you put sugar in your corn bread.

There's supposedly an old Southern saying; "If there's sugar in the corn bread, there's a Yankee in the kitchen!"

SB (Thinking that could be a clue in a murder mystery? "Your Honor. My client couldn't have poisoned his wife. Lab results showed there to have been not only arsenic, but sugar in the fatal corn bread. As a true Southern Gentleman he would never have put sugar in his cornbread!")

[annecros]

You will never starve if you have collards and cornbread. Looking up the nutrional information will clue you in to this most perfect of foods.

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While I've never been south of the Mason-Dixon line and east of the Mississippi at the same time, (a character defect I intend to remedy soon!), I have it on good authority that one of the defining characteristics of a north/south orientation is whether or not you put sugar in your corn bread.

There's supposedly an old Southern saying; "If there's sugar in the corn bread, there's a Yankee in the kitchen!"

SB (Thinking that could be a clue in a murder mystery? "Your Honor. My client couldn't have poisoned his wife. Lab results showed there to have been not only arsenic, but sugar in the fatal corn bread. As a true Southern Gentleman he would never have put sugar in his cornbread!")

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WEEELLLL yes, sugar in the cornbread is an abomination. However, I was known to throw in a handful when my German husband insisted that cornbread must have sugar.

I have since weaned him, and he understands the natural sweetness of corn which must not be adulterated with artificial additives. A real convert. He never met an okra pod he liked until he met me either. We all know that no one preaches as well as the convert.

Good luck with your rectification. I think you will find it pleasant. Have a good time in the south, and just make sure you are not in a big hurry.

Darling husband would never try to tell me how to prepare cornbread, or greens, or for that matter grits, these days.

I love him.

Interesting side note and edited to add: Collards need to be thoroughly cooked in order to maximize the nutrional value stored in them.

Somebody was smart with all the braising.

Edited January 2, 2007 by annecros (log)

[robyn]

...The collards should be absolutely lovely there in Atlanta right now. I would hold off on the turnips and mustard until early spring though. Don't even think about buying that precut stuff in a bag, it is obscene, and you just don't taste the dirt and life in them like you do with the whole.

Those spring greens (mustard especially but turnips too) are amazing, young sweet and tender. Collards are usually better with a little cold weather on them, not as bitter.

My mother recalls a family that was put out of their home during the depression. They dug up the collards and piled them on a wagon and paraded out of town with them, along with small furnishings and family pictures of course. You will never starve if you have collards and cornbread. Looking up the nutrional information will clue you in to this most perfect of foods. My mom's favorite dessert was a glass of buttermilk with cornbread crumbled into it. Nothing wrong with that.

Let us know when you drop the hock in the water. A pressure cooker is helpful when cooking collards as well, but it is good and good for you regardless...

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I always used to cut up whole collards. It was a lot of work - and I always had a pile of those outside leaves left over. I was really tired this weekend - so I tried the bagged collards from an outfit called Glory Foods - which another shopper told me was a good company (they were a BOGO at Publix). They were better than any I've cut up myself. So I think I'm hooked. They also had mustard, turnip and kale greens (which I haven't tried).

Note that unless you're cooking the shoe leather outside leaves - you really don't need a pressure cooker. My receipe takes a total of about 1 1/2 hours (20 minutes to boil the seasonings and flavor the water - then an hour to simmer the greens). And now that I've discovered that at least some greens in a bag are great - the prep time is about 5 minutes (which consists of putting everything in the pot - including my secret ingredient - which is a smoked pork hock).

Also - when it comes to sugar in cornbread - I have tried a half dozen recipes without sugar. I suppose they are "regionally pure" - but nothing tastes better than the excellent cornbread mix from Williams Sonoma (which has sugar).

Finally - I think it's really sad that this is the only time of year you can find fresh black-eyed peas in the markets here. They're super easy to cook - and about 100 times better than canned or dried. Robyn

P.S. Perhaps it is traditional not to have sugar in corn bread because people used to be too poor to buy sugar. When the reason for the rule ceases - etc. I mean people here used to eat grits and grunts - because that was all they could afford. But if I had to choose today - I think I'd prefer shrimp and grits .

Edited January 2, 2007 by robyn (log)

[annecros]

Oh Gosh Robyn, the bagged stuff does reduce prep time a great deal, and if washing and cutting the greens is a deal breaker, then by all means buy the bagged stuff. I agree with you that the bagged greens are better than no greens at all. You really should try the Kale. My hubby's favorite mix of greens is turnip greens, mustard and kale.

Glory Foods is a great line, and the bagged greens in particular were bought out from the Roberson family in Tift County Georgia. My dad did the books for them for years, and Edith Roberson was a wonderful lady. Originally peanut farmers, I think one of the sons later figured out how to mass produce greens efficiently and bring them to market without the spoilage that comes with the fresh product. Southern greens bagged predate salad greens bagged.

Now, somebody needs to do that with peas! I like dried peas in their place, but the summer peas fresh shelled are like nothing else in the world.

I like the leatherlike mature leaves on collards. They add great crunch and flavor. But it does take about an hour and a half in a pressure cooker to make everything happy. 30 minutes under pressure, then an hour simmer.

I also add a smoked hock, and actually if you dump a Goya ham bullion cube into the pot it is pretty good. Two tablespoons of butter at the very end really sends things over the top. I eat collards and cornbread for breakfast. My kids look at me weird.

My favorite cornbread, and hubby's, is simple old hoecake. Water, salt and cornmeal. Fried crispy.

Publix has rapidly overcome Winn Dixie and Piggly Wiggly as the southern supermarket chain of choice. I love some of their house brands. Good stuff.

Your milage may vary, of course.

Edited January 3, 2007 by annecros (log)

[Varmint]

I think this conversation has run its course. If you'd like to talk about collards or corn bread, let's do it in separate discussions.

This has been an enlightening topic. Thanks for all who participated.