Help Me Define the "South"

[annecros]

Thanks for the information. I find it interesting that in my home state of VA only 60% are Southern identified, but 82% think they live in the South. This parallels my own experience. I think I understand quite a bit about Southern culture although I am not Southern identified. This to me begs an anthropological question: does one have to be Southern in identity or Southern in experience to understand southern food at a cultural level?

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It is very interesting, looking at the jump Florida took as well.

It begs another question. Even if you do not self identify as such, could you be a Southerner (redneck)?

If (insert cliche here), you might be a Southerner...

I don't think you need to do either to understand Southern food at a cultural level. I know people from the Islands and South America that understand southern food at a downright visceral level. Even a couple of self identified yankees, though they may not understand what they understand...

Edited December 3, 2006 by annecros (log)

[andiesenji]

This survey is interesting and in my opinion, shows how much migration to and from the southern states there has been during the past 40 or 50 years.

Back in the days when "Dixiecrats" were in the majority in the "Solid South" I believe that most people in Kentucky considered themselves southerners. In fact, the people in the very southernmost area of Illinois were more southern than midwestern in their culture as well as their manner of speaking, which was distinctly more southern than people further north in the state. This area is very hilly, extensively forested with numerous creeks and branches (small streams) and quite different from the flat plains further north in the state.

I doubt that until fairly late in the 20th century, few people would have been able to distinguish a resident of this area of southern Illinois from a citizen of western Kentucky by just listening to their speech. They used the same colloquialisms, accents and certainly enjoyed the same foods.

[FistFullaRoux]

After some thought, I have come to the conclusion that TV and the interstates are to blame for the blurring of the lines. There has been much cross-cultural pollenation in the last 50-75 years, plus migration of native southerners north and west, with a larger amount of outside influence coming in. Florida is a perfect example, where even many Floridians no longer consider Miami to be a southern city. It's more of a Cuban/Carribean city, with a lot of snowbirds. It's odd that noone would consider Key West a southern city.

So it's not just geography. It can't be a list of cities or states. Good examples of "southern foods" or "southern traditions" can be found all over the continent, as pointed out above. It can't be just grits, or okra, or BBQ. It's not a single ingredient, or group of ingredients. Just because you can find good Mexican food in Birmingham or good BBQ in NYC does not make NYC southern, or Birmingham southwest.

You have to go back 50 years or so to see what the area's traditions are. Today's cuisine and culture are a mix of a lot of influences. There are things in grocery stores all over "the south" that would not have been there 50 years ago. But if they were, they would have been used, at least sparingly. In the past, I think southern cooks (really any cooks from anywhere) did not cook the way they did to uphold any culinary tradition. It was what the family liked, traditional or not. Ask a native of Egypt (just to pick a country) who lives in Atlanta what his favorite food is, and it probably would not be cornbread.

[joiei]

It's odd that noone would consider Key West a southern city.

especially considering that in 1898, Key West was the largest city, population wise, in the state of Florida, followed by Jacksonville then Pensacola.

Even if you do not self identify as such, could you be a Southerner (redneck)?

But do you have to be a redneck if you consider yourself a Southerner? Or do you have to be a Southerner if you consider yourself a redneck?

I find the figures for the coastal South interesting and revealing, in that it appears that area has a more distinct southern feel to those who live there than do the inland states.

From my reading this thread, food as defined by southerners can vary from area to area with a few mainstays across the board. The food culture of the South has changed and evolved over time according to the availibility and the demands of the residents of that particular region.

[annecros]

It's odd that noone would consider Key West a southern city.

especially considering that in 1898, Key West was the largest city, population wise, in the state of Florida, followed by Jacksonville then Pensacola.

Even if you do not self identify as such, could you be a Southerner (redneck)?

But do you have to be a redneck if you consider yourself a Southerner? Or do you have to be a Southerner if you consider yourself a redneck?

I find the figures for the coastal South interesting and revealing, in that it appears that area has a more distinct southern feel to those who live there than do the inland states.

From my reading this thread, food as defined by southerners can vary from area to area with a few mainstays across the board. The food culture of the South has changed and evolved over time according to the availibility and the demands of the Flresidents of that particular region.

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Don't forget, Key West is the southernmost city in the US. The conch's have a very southern attitude, and will seceed at the drop of a hat. I know some conch's. I know how they self identify, and though they love the tourists, well... the tourists don't know everything.

Self identify vs. outside identify. Our upstate NY neighbors immediately identified us as rednecks when we moved in and said so, until we got to know each other and each other's children, then we somehow became "Southern" - with a disticntly Italian (polite in this case) hand gesture to accentuate the word "southern" as opposed to redneck. And very kindly impart some respect, from her point of view I suppose. She thought she was being nice to us.

Hey, she put rice in her chili. How southern can you get?

I think the terms "redneck" and "southern" are all dependent upon intent and voice inflection. A southern person will know if you are insulting them when you call them a redneck, but at the same time understands that "redneck" is actually a noble tag, believe it or not - and more times than not when it is meant as an insult it does not hit the intended target. I guess I am giving away some inside secrets here, but seriously. The joke is ultimately on the person who refers to another person as a redneck in a derisive manner. In case you have not noticed, redneck jokes are funnier in the south than they are in the north, but yankees laugh and do not understand why the redneck sitting next to them finds it even funnier.

You acquire a red neck by bending your head over a plow all day in the hot sun close to the equator, in order to feed yourself and those you love. Serious stuff, but at the end of the day, it is pretty funny.

We love redneck jokes, but we love it even more in the company of yankees who are puzzled.

Maybe the self deprecating sense of humor is uniquely southern? I don't know. Maybe that's it. But people who define others as southern, or alternately rednecks, can sometimes not appreciate what it takes to be southern.

They should read Florence King, then followup with Flannery O'Conner, maybe see a Tennessee Wiliams play or two at the most, and finish up with M. Mitchell and "Gone with the Wind" then we can talk. And I do mean the book and not the movie, though it is a beautiful movie.

The biggest thing here is, I think and this is my opinion only, southern food is not all that alien, strange or unusual. Looking at it from a global point of view, it is pretty common and this sort of food is enjoyed by more people in the world than it is not. It is very well prepared in the south, however, and thank you very much.

Edited December 3, 2006 by annecros (log)

[Pan]

Here's a test if it will post & a simple question (if your a southerner you know the answer without google) What are grillades & what is it servered with?

http://www.angelfire.com/ak2/intelligencer...dixie_quiz.html

& here's some tips for Yankees

http://www.countryhumor.com/humor/tipsforyankees.htm

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Interesting find, but... somethings amiss with that first one.

I mean, my God, I've never been north of Hot Springs. And I'm expanding that a little farther into the frozen north next week when I go to Nashville. I only scored a 58% southern rating. You certainly can't go by that thing.

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I rated 55% Dixie, and I am a New Yorker born and raised!

[Pan]

Ok I messed up the yankee test link here,s the correct one

http://www.alphadictionary.com/articles/yankeetest.html

the answers here are more correct

BTW I got 100%, & had Grillades for breakfast

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Well, I showed up as 41% Dixie, "Barely in Yankeedom." Just because I use "You all" to address a group of people (I sometimes use "You guys," too) and say "crawfish" instead of "crayfish," a legacy of my father's year in residence at LSU when I was 2?

[Pan]

[...]Maybe the self deprecating sense of humor is uniquely southern?[...]

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Nope, definitely not uniquely Southern. Jewish humor is full of very funny self-deprecation.

[Pan]

The advanced quiz produced a more accurate result:

14% Dixie. Wow! You are a Duke of Yankeedom!

[judiu]

It's odd that noone would consider Key West a southern city.

especially considering that in 1898, Key West was the largest city, population wise, in the state of Florida, followed by Jacksonville then Pensacola.

Even if you do not self identify as such, could you be a Southerner (redneck)?

But do you have to be a redneck if you consider yourself a Southerner? Or do you have to be a Southerner if you consider yourself a redneck?

I find the figures for the coastal South interesting and revealing, in that it appears that area has a more distinct southern feel to those who live there than do the inland states.

From my reading this thread, food as defined by southerners can vary from area to area with a few mainstays across the board. The food culture of the South has changed and evolved over time according to the availibility and the demands of the Flresidents of that particular region.

←

Don't forget, Key West is the southernmost city in the US. The conch's have a very southern attitude, and will seceed at the drop of a hat. I know some conch's. I know how they self identify, and though they love the tourists, well... the tourists don't know everything.

Self identify vs. outside identify. Our upstate NY neighbors immediately identified us as rednecks when we moved in and said so, until we got to know each other and each other's children, then we somehow became "Southern" - with a disticntly Italian (polite in this case) hand gesture to accentuate the word "southern" as opposed to redneck. And very kindly impart some respect, from her point of view I suppose. She thought she was being nice to us.

Hey, she put rice in her chili. How southern can you get?

I think the terms "redneck" and "southern" are all dependent upon intent and voice inflection. A southern person will know if you are insulting them when you call them a redneck, but at the same time understands that "redneck" is actually a noble tag, believe it or not - and more times than not when it is meant as an insult it does not hit the intended target. I guess I am giving away some inside secrets here, but seriously. The joke is ultimately on the person who refers to another person as a redneck in a derisive manner. In case you have not noticed, redneck jokes are funnier in the south than they are in the north, but yankees laugh and do not understand why the redneck sitting next to them finds it even funnier.

You acquire a red neck by bending your head over a plow all day in the hot sun close to the equator, in order to feed yourself and those you love. Serious stuff, but at the end of the day, it is pretty funny.

We love redneck jokes, but we love it even more in the company of yankees who are puzzled.

Maybe the self deprecating sense of humor is uniquely southern? I don't know. Maybe that's it. But people who define others as southern, or alternately rednecks, can sometimes not appreciate what it takes to be southern.

They should read Florence King, then followup with Flannery O'Conner, maybe see a Tennessee Wiliams play or two at the most, and finish up with M. Mitchell and "Gone with the Wind" then we can talk. And I do mean the book and not the movie, though it is a beautiful movie.

The biggest thing here is, I think and this is my opinion only, southern food is not all that alien, strange or unusual. Looking at it from a global point of view, it is pretty common and this sort of food is enjoyed by more people in the world than it is not. It is very well prepared in the south, however, and thank you very much.

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It was interesting to read this, keeping in mind what a local radio station said a few years ago; are you a redneck ( a dispariging term) or a good ol' boy (girl). If on a Sunday you go to church and then wash the truck, you're considered to be a good ol' boy, and hence, righteous.

[annecros]

It was interesting to read this, keeping in mind what a local radio station said a few years ago; are you a redneck ( a dispariging term) or a good ol' boy (girl). If on a Sunday you go to church and then wash the truck, you're considered to be a good ol' boy, and hence, righteous.

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Well, probably not righteous, per se. BUT, if you put off washing your truck in order to go to church, then you sacrificed a pleasurable activity for one that may or may not be as pleasurable. BUT, if you did so with an ulterior motive - well...

Good ol' Boy, or Girl, has been used in Southern circles as a disparaging characterization. Actually to my frame of reference, more negative connotations than redneck. Sort of a used car salesman kind of thing.

Not that we don't love a Good Ol' Boy, bless his heart.

So many subtleties. Guess that's what you do when the summer is long and hot. Observe, and speculate.

[andiesenji]

After some thought, I have come to the conclusion that TV and the interstates are to blame for the blurring of the lines. There has been much cross-cultural pollenation in the last 50-75 years, plus migration of native southerners north and west, with a larger amount of outside influence coming in. Florida is a perfect example, where even many Floridians no longer consider Miami to be a southern city. It's more of a Cuban/Carribean city, with a lot of snowbirds. It's odd that noone would consider Key West a southern city.

So it's not just geography. It can't be a list of cities or states. Good examples of "southern foods" or "southern traditions" can be found all over the continent, as pointed out above. It can't be just grits, or okra, or BBQ. It's not a single ingredient, or group of ingredients. Just because you can find good Mexican food in Birmingham or good BBQ in NYC does not make NYC southern, or Birmingham southwest.

You have to go back 50 years or so to see what the area's traditions are. Today's cuisine and culture are a mix of a lot of influences. There are things in grocery stores all over "the south" that would not have been there 50 years ago. But if they were, they would have been used, at least sparingly. In the past, I think southern cooks (really any cooks from anywhere) did not cook the way they did to uphold any culinary tradition. It was what the family liked, traditional or not. Ask a native of Egypt (just to pick a country) who lives in Atlanta what his favorite food is, and it probably would not be cornbread.

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I agree with you 100%, FistFullaRoux.

Irvin S. Cobb, who was born and raised in Paducah, KY, always considered himself a southerner, even though he lived in New York city for more than thirty years, often said that "southern is a state of mind." He was a very prolific writer and wanted his readers to understand that Kentucky (and the rest of the south) was not just a bunch of hillbillies and poverty. When he was in Hollywood in the early '30s, working on a movie script, his automobile broke down when he was driving to San Bernardino. He wrote that he stood by the car for almost two hours, with traffic constantly passing, before someone stopped to give him assistance, a lift to the nearest garage. He said that if this had happened anywhere in the south, the first person to come by, whether in a car, a wagon or on horse or muleback, would have stopped and offered help, a place to rest if living nearby, a drink of water, tobacco, something to eat and if he was lucky, something from a jar under the sink that might be "mildly" alcoholic in nature.

Of course he is not the only writer from the south who referred to the nature of southerners and their tradition of unstinted hospitality that continued until well into the second half of the century.

In the first half of the century the migration was from south to north and west. The reverse migration began in the late '60s and gained momentum as the century progressed.

Several of my friends that had lived here in So.Calif. all their lives have moved to Texas, Arkansas, Georgia and Tennessee. Most have kept in touch and one family, who moved to Warm Springs, Arkansas in 1998, have since convinced three other related families to move to the area.

Since the 1960s, I haven't thought of Florida as being truly "southern" in culture. By geography, yes, but except for the panhandle area I think of it as a polyglot population. I have family in and around Tallahassee and near Crestview in Okaloosa county. That have been there since the late 19th century and they consider themselves true southerners.

Edited December 4, 2006 by andiesenji (log)

[annecros]

Since the 1960s, I haven't thought of Florida as being truly "southern" in culture.  By geography, yes, but except for the panhandle area I think of it as a polyglot population.  I have family in and around Tallahassee and near Crestview in Okaloosa county.  That have been there since the late 19th century and they consider themselves true southerners.

Well, Tom Petty and the Heartbreakers (Gainesville, FL) would be surprised to hear that. You may want to check out Tom's accent when he voices "Lucky" on King of the Hill, or just plug in the album "Southern Accents" or "Pack up the Plantation" from the 1980s. Probably the NASCAR fans in Daytona, Sebring, Homestead and St. Petersburg would be interested as well. Heck, Moroso Motorsports park in Palm Beach County has a parking lot full of pickups, and you will spy more than one ball cap. Lynyrd Skynyrd ("Sweet Home Alabama") were a bunch of Jacksonville boys, as were Molly Hatchett. Then there are the fans at the Georgia/Florida game, or (Katy Bar the Door) the Florida/Florida State Game. Then there is Jon Kral (Ft. Pierce, between Palm Beach and the Space Coast), who wrote an excellent book on the subject of the Florida Cracker:

http://www.amazon.com/Cracker-Floridas-End...7833230-3200667

Then there are those guys in the Florida Cracker Bass Club, who hold six tournaments a year on Lake Okeechobee. I think I spy a red neck or two here:

http://www.bassfishingflorida.com/fcbass.htm

There is a lot of information in the Florida Cracker Webring:

http://www.ringsurf.com/netring?action=info&ring=flcracker

Florida is a pretty big state, and there is more to it than Dade, Broward and Eastern Palm Beach Counties (Drive west in Palm Beach county to Okeechobee or Glades and wonder at the rebel flags and Number "3"'s on the pickups, cows, horses, ATV's and the slow drawl). There there is that Disneyfied area in Orlando, that's the only other real exception to the Florida Southern rule.

Oak trees, spanish moss, gators, mosquitos, cane syrup, biscuits and gravy, greens, peas, hogs, bluejays, mockingbirds. Its all here, just a short drive from the beach.

Oops, I almost forgot Lawton Chiles! The classic Dixiecrat if I've ever seen one:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawton_Chiles

He won a Florida election with the old Southern saying:

"the old he-coon walks just before the light of day,"

Edited December 4, 2006 by annecros (log)

[robyn]

I'm sure the demographics are shifting all the time, but in "The Florida Cookbook", by Jeanne Voltz and Caroline Stuart they make the geographical distinctions in Florida as: Panhandle, Northeast, Central interior, Southern Interior/Great Lake, West coast and east coast (starting about a third down. 

When you look at the recipes grouped in each section, the most traditional "southern" foods (or rather, those that are seen in other states also) are in the Panhandle, the Northeast and all of the Central corridor, i.e. excluding most of the eastern and western coasts.  That is, it not simply a north/south thing but also an interior/coastal distinction.  This seems reasonable as  food and cultural changes from new residents from outside the South would seem to have occurred at an accelerated rate on the coasts. Does this seem to ring true to Floridians?

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Doesn't ring true. You have to keep in mind the history of Florida in terms of non-native settlements. The Panhandle and Northeast Florida were settled fairly early on (because they were connected - however poorly - to the rest of the country). In about 1900 - Pensacola and Jacksonville were the largest cities in the state (populations of about 38,000 and 28,000).

South of northeast Florida - there wasn't a whole lot of anything (Mosquito County took up a large part of the state ). Except on the west coast where the trans-Florida railroad ended (it ended originally at Cedar Key - and then in Tampa). And in the area of the northern part of the peninsula where the railroad passed through. (Note that the first trans-Florida railroad was completed in the middle of the 19th century.)

Miami wasn't connected to the rest of the state by any reasonable means of transportation - and had a population of perhaps 500. Key West did have a reasonable population (although it wasn't the largest city in the state - population was about 10,000) - but the population there was basically people from Cuba and some other islands - and it wasn't connected to anything. Flagler didn't extend his railroad to Miami until 1896 - and to Key West until 1912.

Almost as important as the lack of transportation was the Everglades - which had a tendency to flood a lot of south Florida on a regular basis until it was basically destroyed.

I assume when people are talking about "southern culture" - they're talking about something with a reasonably long history that exists or comes from a particular place - not something people brought with them when they moved from someplace else. And if you look at the history of Florida - and the lack of people in most areas 100 years ago - you can see why "southern culture" - at least in an historical sense - is basically restricted to the northern part of the state and the Panhandle. Robyn

[annecros]

I assume when people are talking about "southern culture" - they're talking about something with a reasonably long history that exists or comes from a particular place - not something people brought with them when they moved from someplace else.  And if you look at the history of Florida - and the lack of people in most areas 100 years ago - you can see why "southern culture" - at least in an historical sense - is basically restricted to the northern part of the state and the Panhandle.  Robyn

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Well, in a historical sense, southern culture is very young, and borrows from other cultures both indigenous (native american) and imported (europe and africa). The acadians did not arrive in the Louisiana area until the 1760's, a little over 250 years ago. No one argues that the culture in New Orleans is not Southern, or that the influence brought there by the Acadians was not significant.

(Long, boring post to follow)

Key West is unusual, in that its location between the Florida straights and Gulf of Mexico made it the "Gibraltor" of the West. Perry planted the American flag on Key West in 1822, a scant 60 years after the Acadians arrived in Louisiana, 17 years after the Lousiana Purchase, and 23 years before Texas became a state. Fort Zachary Taylor was built in the 1840s - 1860s, and was the reason that Key West remained in US hands during the Civil War when Florida seceeded. Fort Zachary Taylor was instrumental in the successful naval blockade of the Confederacy.

As far as the native population is concerned, the Conchs were the decendants of loyalists to the UK who fled to the Bahama's from the Southeastern US after the Revolutionary War.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Key_West,_Florida

From the site:

"Many of the residents of Key West were immigrants from the Bahamas, known as Conchs who arrived in increasing numbers after 1830. Many were sons and daughters of Loyalists who fled to the nearest crown soil during the American Revolution.[7] In the 20th Century many residents of Key West started referring to themselves as "Conchs", and the term is now generally applied to all residents of Key West. Some residents use the term "Conch" to refer to a person born in Key West, while the term "Fresh Water Conch" refers to a resident not born in Key West but who has lived in Key West for seven years or more.[8] However, the true original meaning of Conch applies only to someone with European ancestory that immigrated from the Bahamas.[9] It is said that when a baby was born, the family would put a conch shell on a pole in front of their home.

Many of the Bahama immigrants live in an area of Old Town next to the Truman Annex called "Bahama Village."

Major industries in Key West in the early 19th century included fishing, salt production, and most famously salvage. In 1860 wrecking made Key West the largest and richest city in Florida and the wealthiest town per capita in the U.S. A number of the inhabitants worked salvaging shipwrecks from nearby Florida reefs, and the town was noted for the unusually high concentration of fine furniture and chandeliers which the locals used in their own homes after salvaging them from wrecks."

End quote.

It's location on the trade routes between the gulf ports and east coast brought a great southern influence to the Island. Flaglers railroad did not in fact "find" Key West, so much as it reopened a community after the devastation of the Civil War and created another boom.

The architecture is almost identical to that found in old parts of both Charleston, SC and New Orleans - and that makes sense. Victorian styling, porches on the side to catch the breeze, light colors. It is missing the african influenced slave population and plantation mentality that colors the history of much of the south. Ironically, that is generally found in the immigrants to Key West from Cuba, where slave labor was used on the sugar plantations there extensively.

The orginal population of Key West, were of course, Native Americans. They were pretty much wiped out.

Beans, rice, BBQ and sugar cane along with the key limes and wonderful seafood. Bring your cotton shirt and white linen suit (if you must wear a suit) as well.

Sorry for the long post.

Anne

[robyn]

No problem with the long post as far as I'm concerned Anne. I've read a lot of that stuff too . I don't deny that Key West has a long history - but I think that historically the culture (and food culture) there is pretty different than the culture in the northern parts of Florida (even to this day ).

Wonder what people ate in Key West 150 years ago? Apart from fish. It isn't exactly the most hospitable place to raise crops or large animals.

I also agree that not only is the south fairly young in terms of history - so is most of the United States - compared to a lot of the rest of the world. I'm just not willing to label New Hampshire as being part of the south because they have NASCAR races there!

One thing about a lot of parts of the south is that they were changed irrevocably by the invention of air-conditioning. Being able to live and work in climate-controlled places led to explosive population growth in many areas. Which means that the original culture - whatever it was in 1900 - or even 1940 - has been subjected to a lot of outside influences - and (frequently) considerably watered down. I personally like to cook. When I lived in south Florida - I learned to cook Cuban and "Floribbean" dishes. When I moved to north Florida - I learned to cook traditional southern dishes. Not because of any real connection to any of the cultures (I'm Jewish and grew up as a kid in New Jersey) - but simply because I like to eat good stuff and cook when possible with good local ingredients (I suspect it's easier to find great collards in Jacksonville for New Year's Day than it is in Kansas). On the other hand - I still cook my family's traditional recipes - it's amazing how many native northern Floridians have never had a kugel before .

I guess the point of this is that people should learn about the places they live in - because there are relatively few Americans who'll live their whole lives these days in the places where their parents and grandparents lived. They should incorporate the best of the traditional stuff that they find in their new homes into their lives. But they should also bring their own traditions with them - maintain them and share them. It would be a shame if all of our traditions were lost to new generations who can only relate to pizza and burgers. Robyn

P.S. To anyone who thinks this is too much "Florida talk" - I just want to point out that Florida is now poised to become the 3rd largest state in the country population wise. It is already the largest state in the south - if you exclude Texas (and I won't get into the argument over whether Texas is or is not part of the part of the south - ain't got no dog in that fight! - although I will point out that the major airline from Texas is called "Southwest" ).

Edited December 5, 2006 by robyn (log)

[racheld]

I cook Southern, but have been known to throw foie gras and caviar onto a table with crawfish, catfish, mallard, mountain oysters, rooster fries, buffalo and wild hog.

The ladylike rosy shade of my own nape was earned honestly, bending over the beanrows, peavines, cornstalks and squash hills in that extremely HOT Delta sun.

I own white gloves, lacy hankies, opera glasses, a well-sharpened hoe, a TALL ladder and a Troy-Bilt. A lifetime of food raising, hoeing, picking, canning, pickling, freezing and preserving has given me a deep appreciation for all methods of hunting and gathering. Deer, duck, crappie, barbecue and gumbo appear as often on our table as do prime rib, hamburgers or mapo tofu.

I cook whatever we feel like at the moment, whatever is freshest from the garden or the Farmers' Market, or whatever was just brought back from a trip South.

Food and cooking and the cultivation of both have been a greater part of the

Southern perspective for time beyond memory, and the dedication and methods from the old ways have hung on longer in the South, it seems.

Redneck is as redneck does, I reckon. I just wish I didn't have to spend so much time dispelling the notion that the lowest IQ in the room belongs to the person with the Southern accent.

Edited December 5, 2006 by racheld (log)

[joiei]

I am loving the conversation that is happening here. A culinary history lesson.

My roommate in college was from North Miami Beach and he introduced me to the Bagel Faire on 163rd. His mom also made me my first knish.

[robyn]

Racheld - When I moved to Florida in 1973 - I learned pretty fast that the lawyers who spoke slowly with a southern drawl had a lot more upstairs than most people from up north thought they did. Think they took time to think while they were talking slowly . I learned pretty fast to talk one way in Miami - and another way in Tallahassee!

FWIW - IMO - there is a big difference between a southerner and a redneck. You can find rednecks all over the US. But a real southerner is a much rarer species. I went to the Art & Antiques show here in Jacksonville this weekend. Doubt there were many rednecks there buying those 5-6 figure paintings. Or many rednecks who were thinking about hiring Preston Bailey (one of the speakers) for their daughter's wedding. I'm not sure how many people outside the south really know about southern society types (of which I am certainly not one). Different backgrounds - different foods.

By the way - the one thing you didn't mention you owned was a bush hog . Robyn

[annecros]

No problem with the long post as far as I'm concerned Anne.  I've read a lot of that stuff too  .  I don't deny that Key West has a long history - but I think that historically the culture (and food culture) there is pretty different than the culture in the northern parts of Florida (even to this day  ).

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Thank you very kindly lady. I wouldn't say that historically the culture and food difference between Jacksonville and Key West, are any more diverse than the differences between Memphis and New Orleans. In fact, both being port cities, I would expect more similarities.

Wonder what people ate in Key West 150 years ago?  Apart from fish.  It isn't exactly the most hospitable place to raise crops or large animals.

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Venison and fowl. There's a reason why the Key Deer are endangered, and it wasn't all about cars. Swamp cabbage, or "Hearts of Palm" if you prefer. Coconuts.

One thing about a lot of parts of the south is that they were changed irrevocably by the invention of air-conditioning.  Being able to live and work in climate-controlled places led to explosive population growth in many areas.  Which means that the original culture - whatever it was in 1900 - or even 1940 - has been subjected to a lot of outside influences - and (frequently) considerably watered down. 

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Yes, it has become a much more desirable place to live. I have to wonder though, how much Southerners have influenced others who have migrated here, rather than the other way around. And how much Southerners have influenced the areas into which they have migrated. I don't worry too much about the "original" culture, because simply it was not original, but a blending of cultures. I still argue that the common denominator in the South is the basic corn culture of the Native Americans, and that everything else is an adaptation through a European/African prism, in addition to whatever is readily available. I do however feel strongly that it should be remembered and preserved, I am right there with you on that, so that those who come after us understand where they came from. As far as adapting and changing, that is one of the things that make Southerners who and what they are, despite the stereotypes.

One NASCAR track does not make a Southern state, but FOUR absolutely huge ones?

I am really enjoying this conversation!

Jacksonville, huh? Just take 441 South if you want to see some lovely country, hear some slow drawls, and see a bit of Old Florida including antebellum architecture and produce stands that sell peas by the side of the road. That's the home of those nice Ugly Ripe tomatoes I pay a premium for down here, and the strawberries - my goodness! They make a great monstrous shortcake around Plant City. My son was born at NAS JAX (20 something years ago), and my brother and his family are in Green Cove Springs. I have no problem at all finding collards in South Broward county. Big fat leafy green collards. And I notice a lot more turnip and mustard greens in the markets than when we moved down here about 10 years ago. Could only find the turnips at first, but now mustard is appearing. I think we are making some inroads here and there.

Take care, Robyn.

[annecros]

I am loving the conversation that is happening here.  A culinary history lesson. 

My roommate in college was from North Miami Beach and he introduced me to the Bagel Faire on 163rd.  His mom also made me my first knish.

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That's the neat part down here. I am literally within walking distance of an Argentinian Restaurant, a noodle place, a Caribbean Bakery/Deli (though I am not too fond of goat, I will take the oxtails anytime), and two hispanic/asian (under the same roof) groceries. The kosher places I have to drive a few miles, along with the Indian/Pakistani places. Then there is the Hard Rock Casino on the Seminole Reservation! Six miles from my front door.

Great fun!

[annecros]

Here is an interesting example of Southern Food and Culture influence on the rest of the nation:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/featu...8689493-1791843

Number 1 on the list of Amazon's Editor's Picks: Cooking, Food and Wine

"The Lee Bros. Southern Cookbook: Stories and Recipes for Southerners and Would-be Southerners"

I think I am going to put this on my Christmas list after peeking at the "New Ambrosia" recipe. I have a lot of Southern Cookbooks, but I am intrigued and it is on sale. It goes without saying that the Lee Brothers have been great ambassador's for Southern Cooking.

[racheld]

By the way - the one thing you didn't mention you owned was a bush hog  .  Robyn

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Guilty. At least we DID for years, and I imagine (it took YEARS not to say "expect"---still DO when I'm reverse-thinking someone bent on mind-topping the redneck---sweet drawl and a metaphorical hanky-drop gets 'em every time) that the boys still have one kicking around somewhere on the place. Can't mow first mowing (of the lawn) without one, some years, and they are just the thing for getting that pesky brush out of the way to get to the blackberry brambles, which are little Death Engines themselves.

We also had countless cotton-trailers, combines, beehives, egg-barns (I can still see my Dear Mother-in-Law's fridge now, laden with Mason jars glinting golden in the light---when you have eggs to spare and it's Angel-Food cake baking---the yolks mount up by the hundreds. Chess pie, egg custard, coconut pie and pudding, and lemon icebox pie are where orphaned yolks go to live), coon dogs, a whole mess of Beagles, eighty-four Mallards raised on the little pump-pond, Mr. Preston's rice ditches to swim in (the unholy red which Son #1's platinum hair turned one summer from the minerals in the water, and my resulting efforts with Clairol Ash Blonde shades to neutralize the glare, are family legend), and someone home to Sunday Dinner EVERY Sunday.

Dinner went into the oven just before Sunday School, with salads made the night before resting in the fridge. We walked in, put the ice in the tea glasses, and sat down to a nicely-set table.

I'm lightheaded from a viciously-quick onset of a cold, and so am rambling---as a dear elderly friend whose correspondence to her children I transcribed would say:

Take all mistake for Love.

[robyn]

Sounds like you have/had a lot more land than we do! We only had to bushhog our acre once - before we built our house. Although I suppose if we let it go for a year or two - we'd have to bushhog it again. I try to keep ahead of the undergrowth - but it isn't easy. My husband and I used to do it all ourselves - but it's too much for us now. So we have to hire people to help us.

I'm curious about the beehives. Were they fun? Was the honey good? Everyone here complains how the bee population is getting smaller and smaller - but I find all I have to do is plant a couple of dozen bee friendly flowering plants and they're loaded with 2 or perhaps 3 different kinds of bees almost all year. Butterflies and hummingbirds too. As well as wasps (unfortunately). Robyn

[BRM]

Sorry I missed the first part of this thread. I am in Minneapolis now but grew up in South Carolina and Tennesee.

There was an article in The Economist shortly before the Atlanta Olympics that asked this same question. The conclusion they came to was "the South" was approximately the same as the natural range of kudzu.

Not a bad proxy if you think about it.