Help Me Define the "South"

[NYC Mike]

Hi All,

I think we (me and my wife Andrea) first realized how little we know about "Southern" food when EGs very own Lan4Dawg replied with this quote to our first biscuit attempt:

now you serve those along side some pork brains and mixed up "cackle berries", country ham, red eye gravy, rat trap cheese, muscadine preserves, saw mill gravy, and greased collards and you have your self a break fast!

Our first reaction was . But anything with a name like "rat trap cheese" was sure to peak my interest! Since then we have dipped our pinky toe in the water here and we really want to continue to delve into Southern Culture and its food.

In "The Gift of Southern Cooking" Scott Peacock makes a comment that made us ask y'all this question.

...the South is not one place, but many little worlds unto themselves."

Help us wrap a geographical fence around the "South" please. We figure if we can start understanding and knowing the broad universe it will be easier for us to move around within it, experiencing and learning as we go.

Thanks!

-Mike

Edited October 30, 2006 by NYC Mike (log)

[annecros]

I would humbly suggest the CSA (Confederate States of America).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confederate_States_of_America

There is a solid thread across the geography. BBQ, peppers, tomatoes, pork, rice, corn, abundant veggies, strong Native American influence (by that I mean to include the Native Americans that lived below the present US border, chocolate - yum) - just off the top of my head. Corn or Wheat may be the most fundamental dividing line - maybe.

I had a yankee pot roast for dinner yesterday. I suppose others would refer to it as a plain old "pot roast" though.

Edited October 30, 2006 by annecros (log)

[ludja]

^And to those states I would probably add at least parts of Maryland and West Virginia as having a strong southern influence in food. West Virginia was part of the Union but its Appalachian cookery has more in common with some of its Confederate neighbors.

States already cited in annecros' post:

South Carolina

Mississippi

Florida

Alabama

Georgia

Louisiana

Texas

Virginia

Arkansas

Tennessee

North Carolina

Missouri

Kentucky

The only state that doesn't ring bells of Southern food in my mind is Missouri but I don't know much about the state for the type of traditional food there.

Edited October 30, 2006 by ludja (log)

[annecros]

St. Louis BBQ comes to mind - others could probably enlighten you and I both!

Also, I was not aware that the border areas of Arizona were also a part of the CSA. Once I think about the food and the 'tude, it sort of makes sense, though.

Edited October 30, 2006 by annecros (log)

[cakewalk]

Well, some of us are New Yorkers. And we sort of have our own geographical lines. So I'd even count New Jersey, south of what is considered the "tri-state metropolitan area," to be southern. I mean, a lot of those people put vinegar on their French fries!! To me, that's a sure sign that you've entered the south. Good topic.

[annecros]

Well, some of us are New Yorkers. And we sort of have our own geographical lines. So I'd even count New Jersey, south of what is considered the "tri-state metropolitan area," to be southern. I mean, a lot of those people put vinegar on their French fries!! To me, that's a sure sign that you've entered the south.    Good topic. 

←

Either the South or the UK! I love vinegar on my fried fish as well. Turnip Greens, yep, lots of pepper vinegar.

This is a very fun topic. Besides, they grow lovely tomatoes in New Jersey. Surely there is some rebel floating around up there in the blood.

[shellfishfiend]

To me, the South is a feeling more than anything. it is a feeling of ease and contentment. It is a relaxed and easy feeling. It is the feeling that you get from others that they really do care when they ask, 'How are ya?" it is the sense you get from others that they would help you if you needed it, and would do so without being asked.

I have felt this in places outside of the South, but I feel it most strongly in the South.

To tie this to food: In the South, people feel joy in being able to feed people and feed them well. It is not necessary to know the people you are feeding. It is enough to know that they came to your table hungry and you were able to provide them with nourishment of both the body, and maybe, the spirit.

[bbqboy]

I have relatives buried at Arrow Rock, so I'm Qualified by birth, I guess. Missouri is very Southern, especially areas below the Missouri River(Loosely-the Ozarks) which were settled by

Families moving West from the Appalachians. Our Family recipes are very "Southern".

The Mississippi figures prominently in Missouri's

Food lineage too , as it is the direct route from New Orleans to St. Louis.

Henry Perry, the BBQ King of KC, worked on Riverboats before settling down on the west side of the State, bringing Tennessee knowledge with him.

Kansas & Missouri are still fighting the Civil War 140 years later.

Maybe we should draw a Fried Pickle/Grits line.

[annecros]

I have relatives buried at Arrow Rock, so I'm Qualified by birth, I guess. Missouri is very Southern, especially  areas below the Missouri River(Loosely-the Ozarks) which were settled by

Families moving West from the Appalachians. Our Family recipes are very "Southern".

  The Mississippi figures prominently in Missouri's

Food lineage too , as it is the direct route from New Orleans to St. Louis.

  Henry Perry, the BBQ King of KC, worked on Riverboats before settling down on the west side of the State, bringing Tennessee knowledge with him.

Kansas & Missouri are still fighting the Civil War 140 years later.

  Maybe we should draw a Fried Pickle/Grits line.

←

I would think the Mississippi would bring a strong southern influence to Missouri. That makes sense. I have found the kind, considerate, and compasionate southern attitude in relatives of mine from Missouri as well, that shellfishfiend so eloquently described.

Any state that builds a huge monument, then explains that if you pass it you are most definitely "west" surely has its boundries solid and knows where it stands!

[C. sapidus]

^And to those states I would probably add at least parts of Maryland and West Virginia as having a strong southern influence in food.  West Virginia was part of the Union but its Appalachian cookery has more in common with some of its Confederate neighbors.

←

Ludja is spot-on about Maryland. In the 1860s, the tobacco trade promoted close commercial and culinary ties between Baltimore, Virginia, and the Eastern Shore. Western Maryland, too cold for tobacco, developed closer ties with Pennsylvania. I agree that Appalachian cookery strongly reflects Southern influence, but I'm not sure of the history.

[slkinsey]

With respect to culture and cuisine, I see some continuity in the swath of land that starts in Virginia, goes down the coast, cuts across the top of Florida and ends in Louisiana. This would encompass Virginia, Kentucky, North and South Carolina, Tennessee, Georgia, Alabama, Mississippi, Louisiana and the top of Florida. States like Arkansas, Oklahoma, Texas, New Mexico, etc. seem more "Southwest" than "South" to me from a cultural and culinary standpoint. This is, of course, if one is going to define it on a "whole state" basis. Clearly the parts of the surrounding states immediately adjacent to the above-named states will share many of the same traditions (the same is true, for example, of the areas in Italy immediately adjacent to the borders of Emilia-Romagna). But I don't feel that the states as a whole are reflective of what I think when I think of "Southern culture and cuisine."

[Carrot Top]

This is a good book to reference All Things Southern: UNC Press - Encyclopedia of Southern Culture

[NYC Mike]

With respect to culture and cuisine, I see some continuity in the swath of land that starts in Virginia, goes down the coast, cuts across the top of Florida and ends in Louisiana. This would encompass Virghinia, Kentucky, North and South Carolina, Tennessee, Georgia, Alabama, Mississippi, Louisiana and the top of Florida. States like Arkansas, Oklahoma, Texas, New Mexico, etc. seem more "Southwest" than "South" to me from a cultural and culinary standpoint.

Texas was really the state that got me scratching my head initially on the southwest side and W. Virginia on the northeast side. Cajun and Creole food is clearly of the "south" but what about TexMex?

To tie this to food: In the South, people feel joy in being able to feed people and feed them well. It is not necessary to know the people you are feeding. It is enough to know that they came to your table hungry and you were able to provide them with nourishment of both the body, and maybe, the spirit.

Ain't that the absolute beauty of it right there.

-Mike

[slkinsey]

Texas was really the state that got me scratching my head initially on the southwest side and W. Virginia on the northeast side.  Cajun and Creole food is clearly of the "south" but what about TexMex?

No. Cowboy food is not Southern food.

I think most people from Texas would agree that, with respect to culture and cuisine, Texas is a region unto itself.

[ludja]

New Mexico is definately Southwest and not South. And the traditional food there is "New Mexican" and different enough to be distinct from Arizona and Texas. New Mexico also has "southwest cuisine" as popularized by Mark Miller of Coyote Cafe and other high end restaurants in Santa Fe.

Texas is certainly a huge state with many different cultural influences but the food of a friend who grew up in east Texas certanly sounds very Southern. It would be itnteresting to hear more about "southern food" in Texas from people more familiar with the reagionality of food there though.

From what I know, traditional West Virgina food is very southern in style as well although there are a few northern areas (close to Pittsburgh, etc) that have different influences, Italian, for example. There are pockets like these in many of the more southern states as well. Despite a few outliers, I think enough of the state is influenced by Southern and Appalachian cuisine for that to be considered the major flavor. I'm pretty sure that Southern Appalachian food is considered a branch of Southern cookery like Carolina coastal or Cajun cusine.

Some food examples from a friend's extended family gatherings in central West Virginia:

corn bread, stack cakes, biscuits, fried chicken, sorghum syrup, country hams, cobblers, coconut cakes, cooked greens with pot liquor dumplings, black-eyed peas, paw paws, all manner of southern vegetable side dishes often served as a whole meal, pickles and chowchows, fried pies made with dried apples, etc.

Edited October 30, 2006 by ludja (log)

[jsmeeker]

Texas was really the state that got me scratching my head initially on the southwest side and W. Virginia on the northeast side.  Cajun and Creole food is clearly of the "south" but what about TexMex?

No. Cowboy food is not Southern food.

I think most people from Texas would agree that, with respect to culture and cuisine, Texas is a region unto itself.

←

It certainly is.

If you want to group it in with another region, you can. As long as that region isn't the south.

[annecros]

With respect to culture and cuisine, I see some continuity in the swath of land that starts in Virginia, goes down the coast, cuts across the top of Florida and ends in Louisiana.  This would encompass Virginia, Kentucky, North and South Carolina, Tennessee, Georgia, Alabama, Mississippi, Louisiana and the top of Florida.  States like Arkansas, Oklahoma, Texas, New Mexico, etc. seem more "Southwest" than "South" to me from a cultural and culinary standpoint.  This is, of course, if one is going to define it on a "whole state" basis.  Clearly the parts of the surrounding states immediately adjacent to the above-named states will share many of the same traditions (the same is true, for example, of the areas in Italy immediately adjacent to the borders of Emilia-Romagna).  But I don't feel that the states as a whole are reflective of what I think when I think of "Southern culture and cuisine."

←

Well, I spent some time in Arlington, TX back when I was single, young, and still had a fire in my belly.

I had the priviledge of being courted by the epitome of Southern Gentlemen, Bill who worked at the Bomber Plant. Robert E. Lee himself would have felt rude in his presence. Culturally, he and his friends and the majority of those I met (including Mexicans, who if thier forebears are Mexican "Indians" are truly Native to the American Continent) were uniformly slow speaking and absolutely old fashioned in their manner.

As far as diet and food are concerned, I would have to point out the corn culture. Masa is cornmeal, after all, and to be fair so are polenta and grits. However, corn and tomatoes arrived in the Old Word, after being discovered and being utilized in the new world. Peppers and BBQ are a whole 'nother story, though our European settlers had a great influence in sausage making. I had some great biscuits and cornbread in Texas, and could purchase grits and okra in the grocery store. Beef based instead of pork? Sure, but cows grow better there than pigs.

I agree with you that in the whole state basis is rather limiting. However, we were asked to draw geographic lines.

[annecros]

Texas was really the state that got me scratching my head initially on the southwest side and W. Virginia on the northeast side.  Cajun and Creole food is clearly of the "south" but what about TexMex?

No. Cowboy food is not Southern food.

I think most people from Texas would agree that, with respect to culture and cuisine, Texas is a region unto itself.

←

Well, yeah, you guys like to feel special.... Calling a little pond a "tank" of all things.

Still a bunch of rebels, though.

Edited October 30, 2006 by annecros (log)

[slkinsey]

... the food of a friend who grew up in east Texas certanly sounds very Southern.

That kind of goes along with what I said above about areas in other states that are just on the other side of the states I defined as "the South." There's definitely some bleedover. But I think I'm safe in suggesting that Texas, as a whole, doesn't belong in the same cultural/cuisine continuity the way that Louisiana and North Carolina do -- despite the fact that Louisiana and North Carolina are much further apart.

Well, I spent some time in Arlington, TX back when I was single, young, and still had a fire in my belly.

I had the priviledge of being courted by the epitome of Southern Gentlemen, Bill who worked at the Bomber Plant. Robert E. Lee himself would have felt rude in his presence. Culturally, he and his friends and the majority of those I met (including Mexicans, who if thier forebears are Mexican "Indians" are truly Native to the American Continent) were uniformly slow speaking and absolutely old fashioned in their manner.

Hmm. I've been to the Dallas/Fort Worth area a number of times, and never thought it had anything that reminded me of what I think of as "Southern culture" as it would be found in e.g., Georgia or Tennessee.

[annecros]

Texas was really the state that got me scratching my head initially on the southwest side and W. Virginia on the northeast side.  Cajun and Creole food is clearly of the "south" but what about TexMex?

No. Cowboy food is not Southern food.

I think most people from Texas would agree that, with respect to culture and cuisine, Texas is a region unto itself.

←

It certainly is.

If you want to group it in with another region, you can. As long as that region isn't the south.

←

Pecan Pie? Are you telling me that Dallas doesn't make a mean, corn syrup based, pecan pie?

Just asking.

[sparrowgrass]

You gotta add southern Illinois and Indiana to the South. Cairo, Illinois is closer to Atlanta than Chicago, not only in distance but in culture, food, and even accents. Going back to the Civil War--lots of southern sympathizers in both states.

[bbqboy]

Texas splits several ways, but the Southeast part of the State is tied more to the South than the West. Plains States as a whole, from Canada to Mexico, share their own Food Heritage also.

Tobacco has always been grown around Kansas City too, by the way. And there's a Whiskey Distillery, McCormicks. How can you get more Southern than that?

[slkinsey]

Re Kansas City, I think any city that's a major cattle drive stop isn't part of the same South as Alabama, Tennessee, etc. Cowboy culture isn't Southern culture.

[bbqboy]

I'd agree. It's more a border city, but the Southern influence is present for sure. About halfway across the Plains is the real transition from Eastern to Western, where Cowboy Hats and Boots are not uncommon, again, from Canada to Mexico. To me, KC Q is an Amalgam of The Southern Q Tradition(Hickory Pit) with More peppers, spices, and Beef courtesy of the Trails to the SW.

[NYC Mike]

Thanks folks!

Let's see if I have the consensus right:

North & South Carolina

Mississippi

Florida

Alabama

Georgia

Louisiana

Virginia

Arkansaw

Tennesee

Texas, Missouri are marginal along the borders but for the most part not?

What about Kentucky?