Wines to Cellar

[Robert Schonfeld]

How about it, experts and collectors? What should we be buying now to put away, for a few years, for 25 years? Any kind of wine, any price range, but with an emphasis on less obvious candidates. Please be specific, including where to buy your choices.

[southern girl]

Although I am not an expert...and only a small collector...I would suggest 1997 Brunello Di Montalcinos...I have tried and put away Fuligni BdM; Antinori "Pian Delle Vigne" BdM Riserva and Castello di Banfi "Poggio All'Oro" BdM...I also like 1997 Allegrini Amarone and 1997 Allegrini "LA Poja"...All a Big Reds which you can put down for a number of years...price range from $55-$150, and I know you can get them through Sherry Lehman, but I am sure local New Yorkers can steer you towards where it is best to purchase.

[Ron Johnson]

'99 Red Burgs

'98 Northern Rhones (if you can find any)

'97 Brunellos

'98 Super Tuscans

'00 should prove to be a winner for Rhones

'01 should be good for Bordeaux and not priced ridiculously like '00.

[Steve Plotnicki]

Schonfeld - Well what do you like to drink? There has been a plethora of great wine made since 1995 in almost every region of the world. If you can be a bit more specific, I can be more detailed. Plus yous strike me to be of an age where extended long term cellaring might not be cost effective .

[southern girl]

Steve, Ron and anyone else...could you suggest examples (Vintage and Producer) of what you would consider "outstanding" yet still obtainable Batard Montrachet, Chassagne Montrachet, Corton Charlemagne, Puligny Montrachet, Nuit-St. Georges and Gevrey Chambertin....thanks

[jaybee]

2000 Bordeaux. Need 20-30 years in cellar to reach peak?

[Billy D]

Schonfeld - The answers you are getting seem a bit generic and some of the recs. may already be hard to find. I am not sure what style wines you enjoy but I assume, since you want to lay them down for a long time, you like big tannic reds. This being the case there are many 2000 and 2001 2nd growth Bordeauxs that can be found at a good value and will continue to improve over the next 10-25 years (Pichon Lalande; Calon Segur; Lagrange; Leoville Barton; De Fieuzal; Bourgneuf; Clos L'elise). I suggest you pick up Robert Parkers guide to buying wine; it contains the best information.

[Ron Johnson]

I suggest you pick up Robert Parkers guide to buying wine; it contains the best information.

Not sure if Parker's taste in wine is well-suited to age-worthy wine. He moves toward fruit forward low acidity early drinkers.

I do think that second growth and lower classified Bordeaux is a good idea.

Some others to try are Ducru Beaucaillou and Gruaud Larose.

For other more specific recs try:

98 Rhones: Ogier Cote Rotie and La Rosine, Jamet Cote Rotie , Jasmin Cote Rotie, J.L. Chave Hermitage, Alain Graillot Crozes Hermitage, Clape Cornas, Voge Cornas, Eric Texier CdP, Fortia CdP, La Nerthe CdP.

99 Burgundies: Domaine des Lambrays Grand Cru & Morey St. Denis; Momessin Clos de Tart; Domaine Armand Rousseau for Gevrey Chambertin, especially the Close de la Roche and Clos St. Jaques.

98 Super Tuscans:

La Macolina “Museum”

I Giusti I Zaza “Belcore”

La Palazzola “Rubino”

Montevertine “Il Sodaccio”

Pieve Del Vescovo “Lucciaio”

Selvamaggio

Terrabianca “Cipresso” “Campaccio” or “Campa”

Ciacci “Ateo”

Piastraia

Alfeo

San Martino

Rubino dei Greppi

Paleo Rosso

Grattamacko

Poggio al Moro

Ricalosi Casalferro

Morisfarms Avvoltore

Renzo Masi Enta e China Toscana

Rigoli “Val di Cornia Rosso Montepitt”

Rodano “Monna Claudia” Toscana

Rocca di Castagnoli “Stiella Toscana

Cima “Monteveno” Merlot

Petrolo “terve di Galatrano Rosso

Castello Romitorio “Romito del Romitorio”

Fuso Carmignani “For Duke Toscana”

Surbiano Montescudaio “Rosso delle Miniere”

Fattoria Montecchio “Pietrucupa”

Le Calvane “Borro del Boscone” Cd Toscana Centrale

Poggio a Popparo “Flacco” Toscana

San Giusto “Rosso degli Appiani” Toscana

Carpiento Dogajolo

Hope that is a little more specific.

[Robert Schonfeld]

Thanks to those who have been specific. Let's keep this up. What about some Spanish ideas? South American? White Burgundies? Sauternes?

Personally, it's easier for me to say that just about the only type of wine I don't especially care for (other than bad wine) is very oaky California Chardonnay. I like variety. I've rarely met a good wine I didn't like. As with food, it is quality that matters most; but unlike my preference for Italian food, I appreciate good wine equally, regardless of its origin. I'd be especially interested to know what other members are putting away.

Steve, I'm 54. I'm in better shape every day than the day before. Is it unreasonable to think I will still be enjoying good wine when I'm 85? And if I'm left with anything at the end (Plan B), it will be fun to give it away.

[Steve Plotnicki]

Robert - Gee I thought you were older .

Let's try and do this by drinking window.

1999 Red Burgundy is one of the most delicious vintages to come along in the last 20 years. It probably has a 15 year drinking window with the top wines lasting for 20+ and the lesser wines 8-12. 1999 White Burgundy is very good if a bit austere. 2000 is supposedly a bit riper. 10-15 for Premier Crus and 15-20 years for Grand Crus.

1998-2000 Southern Rhone wines probably have a 10 year drinking window for the "normale" bottlings and 15-20 years for the luxury cuvees. The 1999 vintage is more classic than the other two and it might take that vintage a few years longer to reach maturity. In the Northern Rhone, 1998 and 1999 are terriffic in Cote Rotie with '98 classic and '99 riper and opulent. I would say 15 years of aging there. Same for Hermitage in 1999 and that could approach a 20 year aging window.

Bordeaux as Jaybee posted is great in 2000 but you will wait 30+ years for the top wines. But there is a good opportunity in Bordeaux with the 1995 vintage. It drinks very well these days and it appears it will drink straight through to maturity. With 1996, parts of 1998 and 2000 being better vintages, the wines are severely underpriced (if you call $150 a bottle for first growths underpriced.) But I think they are truly delicious wines. 1994 has some good wines in that unerrrated vintage that also offer good value and will drink in the next 15 years.

Spanish wines are a tougher call. The modern style riojas like Artadi drink well now, but I'm not sure how ageworthy they will be. My best guess is they will peak in 8-12 years. I'm not a huge fan of the wines of the Ribero del Duero so I can't help you there.

1996 & 1997 Barolos are good will cellar for 15-25 years depending on the grower. I can't help you as much with Tuscan wines since I don't drink them very often but the single vineyard Sangiovese wines from 1997 like Flaccionello dela Pieve are great, as are some of the Super-Tuscan styles blends like Siepi which is half merlot and salf sangiovese.

[LaNiña]

I keep reading here and there that the '99 Brunellos are gonna be a huge hit, like the '97s, but obviously are cheaper now, and not yet available - but can be pre-ordered. Opinions on that?

[rich]

French wine hasn't been made to age since 1978, California since 1878, New York - 1988 and the rest of the world is already too old.

Most wines are made to be consumed within ten years of the vintage. The French were the last ones to make wines for aging in great numbers, but California scared them into changing. The Italians make some wine for aging, but not enough to speak about. We live in a "instant gratification" society.

Me? I have a stash of '78 Bordeaux (a small number of '75's and '59's - no '61's - very sad) and a few '72 Burgundies (one '34 left from Echazeaux) that I only break out on special, special occasions.

After that, drink and be merry - enjoy. Life's too short to wait for wine to catch up with you.

[Robert Schonfeld]

If, as Rich says, French wines haven't been made to age since '78, why then does Steve say we will wait 30+ years to drink the 2000 Bordeaux?

"Drinking window" means the period of time starting with its release that the wine will drink well? Does one plot the quality of the wine during its drinking window along a bell curve? Or is its peak judged by successive tastings?

(Note to self: Beat Steve over the head with my cane when I see him.)

[Steve Plotnicki]

"French wine hasn't been made to age since 1978"

Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain.

What Rich is referring to is the modernization of winemaking techniques which also might be called an internationalization of the winemaking process. Prior to the '80's the style of winemaking was geared to longer term aging than it is today. But for someone your age, it doesn't make a difference because if the wines age 50 years instead of 30 that's of no use to you. But as to his point in specific, I wish he was right about the 10 years because I would like to drink my 1990 Latour and Cheval Blanc now. But the last time I had them they seemed to need another 10-15 years to be drinkable. I guess Rich must like his wines tannic and with primamry fruit flavors.

[jaybee]

How much are you willing to spend? If you want to spend $10,000, I would buy some great wines that are drinkable now from a reputable dealer in rare wine and drink my way through these, rather than buying young wines now and waiting 15-20 years for them. The days of buying really cheap futures for great wine are gone. Look at the 2000 Premier Grand Cru prices. I'd rather buy really great wines for $150-300 a bottle and lay it down for drinking now to the next ten years. At an average price of $200 per bottle, you can buy 50 great bottles for $10K. Drink one a month and you have nearly four years of supply. Fill in the gaps with good, more modestly priced wines.

[rich]

I do enjoy my wines with a little more tannin - it compliments food better in my opinion.

Let me clarify a point, while I stand by the 10-year statement, I'm not saying the wines will be bad after that time. Most good wines will hold another 10-15 years. When they start to decline is a vineyard by vineyard proposition.

[jaybee]

To amplify my previous post, which used a rather large number ($10K) to be dramatic, what I meant to suggest is that buying a smaller number of bottles of very good wine that is drinkable now may be preferable to tying up one's cash in wine that won't reach its peak for fifteen or twenty years. Perhaps when I passed the fifty year mark, my orientation changed to gatherings rosebuds while I may. Although I admit that the wines I laid down in 1970 has been giving us great pleasure these days. One wine I did buy to lay down is a 1997 Chianti Classico, which I was told was a great year that would develop vey well and could be had for $150 a case.

[jaybee]

duplicate post removed.

[Robert Schonfeld]

Your point is well taken, Jaybee. I see nothing wrong a strategy that includes drinking well now, as well as laying down a few things (but not for too long for us old people).

Still interested in more specifics. Anybody else care to say what they're cellaring?

[Gavin Jones]

When were recent good vintages for sweeties from the Loire?

Good Coteaux du Layon et al are a pleasure - and sufficiently unfashionable (rather like German Riesling) that decent examples are affordable. I'm not an expert on them but outside Rhone wines (1998-2000) and some Italian this is what I would hang onto.

[MartyL]

When were recent good vintages for sweeties from the Loire?

95, 96 and 97 all offer terrific choices in this category. In Vouvray, the 97 Huets, particularly the Clos du Bourg 1er Trie Mollieux, are legends in the making and will likely last many decades, assuming good storage and a good cork. If you can afford it, I hear the Cuvee Constance from that vintage is unreal.

In Coteaux du Layon, the Bise wines from all of those years are delicious, as are, of course, the Baumard Quarts de Chaume. People who have had the good fortune to drink them more often then I have tell me the 95 is the best of the 3 Baumards, but they are all excellent.

[jordan]

You seem to have gotten some great recs. You mention an interest in Latin American wines, a region that has peaked my interest over the past few years.

Here are some suggestions that I have enjoyed:

Altos Las Hormigas - Malbec Reserva 2000 is great (vineyard owned by Marc De Grazia

As you may know Paul Hobbs has taken a serious interest in Latin America (in fact he married an Argentine woman and lives there with their child) He is making wine for a few vineyards in Chile and Argentina. Of his wines these are my picks (favorite first):

Bramare - Malbec "Mendoza" 99

Cobos - Malbec 2000

Armador - Cab. 2000

Some of these wines are drinking well right now but all would improve with 5-15yrs in the bottle.

[Robert Schonfeld]

Good Coteaux du Layon et al are a pleasure - and sufficiently unfashionable (rather like German Riesling) that decent examples are affordable.

I love unfashionable. How about some more ideas for wines that are out of fashion but that are nevertheless of very good quality, worth buying and keeping?

[Steve Plotnicki]

Everything in wine is fashionable. It's just that some regions of the world like the Loire, or almost anything that comes from Germany or Austria isn't fashiobale with collectors. So there are "bargains" to be had because the wines aren't in demand even though some of them are terrrific. But you are limited to Chenin Blancs from the Loire, Cabernet Francs from the Loire, Riesling from Germany and Rieslings and Gruner Veltliner from Austria. Bandols which are 100% Mourvedre are will priced as well. But if you want any of the less esoteric wines, they are both fashionable and pretty expensive.

[Beachfan]

Thanks to those who have been specific. Let's keep this up. What about some Spanish ideas? South American? White Burgundies? Sauternes?

Personally, it's easier for me to say that just about the only type of wine I don't especially care for (other than bad wine) is very oaky California Chardonnay. I like variety. I've rarely met a good wine I didn't like. As with food, it is quality that matters most; but unlike my preference for Italian food, I appreciate good wine equally, regardless of its origin. I'd be especially interested to know what other members are putting away.

Steve, I'm 54. I'm in better shape every day than the day before. Is it unreasonable to think I will still be enjoying good wine when I'm 85? And if I'm left with anything at the end (Plan B), it will be fun to give it away.

Robert, 2001 Sauternes were raved about. I bought Nairac based on reviews at really cheap half bottle prices on futures. Rieussac, at the next price level up, is usually a great bet.

The 2000 Chateauneuf du Pape from Beacuastel should age well. Most of the CDPs will go 7 years and be delicious. Jannasse is another one that holds up well (though maybe not more than 10).

Rob, you recommend 1998 Northern Rhone over 1999?