L'Atelier de Joël Robuchon NYC (2006 - 2008)

[Nathan]

"As for Bruni, if he awards two stars it should put the final nail in his coffin."

It is very high-three-star-level food at 4 star prices. That makes it a two-star restaurant.

With that said, I enjoyed my meal there very much.

[oakapple]

It is very high-three-star-level food at 4 star prices.  That makes it a two-star restaurant.

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The exact relationship of price to rating has never been that clear-cut. If indeed Bruni believes (and I'm not saying he will) that the food is at the high end of three stars, and if the service is also at that level, I don't think he'll dock a star for prices alone. In his roughly eighteen months on the job, I can't think of a review in which he appeared to have done that. He will let you know when he thinks the prices are out of hand (BLT Fish was an example), but he doesn't take a star away for that reason by itself.

[Sneakeater]

Hey wait.  I thought they said they were only going to accept reservations at the bar for the 6 o'clock seating, and it would be first-come-first-served after that.  I guess not?

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Don't think so.

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Doesn't that sort of trash the whole Atelier concept?

[Nathan]

Put it this way: I would give it two stars. (By the way, the service, though very good, isn't four-star service. It can't be...the format makes that impossible.) Could Bruni do so as well? Since the star ratings officially take price into account he certainly would have the cover to do so. Were I to bet I'd probably bet on him giving it 3...but I wouldn't consider it a travesty or entirely uncharacteristic for him to give it 2. The fact of the matter is that Atelier is charging as much as two or three restaurants in NY...but isn't serving food at that level (by design).

[Joe Gerard]

Put it this way:  I would give it two stars.  (By the way, the service, though very good, isn't four-star service.  It can't be...the format makes that impossible.)  Could Bruni do so as well?  Since the star ratings officially take price into account he certainly would have the cover to do so.  Were I to bet I'd probably bet on him giving it 3...but I wouldn't consider it a travesty or entirely uncharacteristic for him to give it 2.  The fact of the matter is that Atelier is charging as much as two or three restaurants in NY...but isn't serving food at that level (by design).

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Each diner can decide how many dishes to choose and at what price point, an option that is not available at any restaurant in NY that I can think of serving this level of food.

[Nathan]

true...and I noted that in my review earlier in this thread.

but there's also no question that by far the best experience is the tasting menu...and it is simply overpriced....(the chef's tasting menu at JG is $30 cheaper and I don't see how there can be a smidgeon of an argument that the cuisine is not more complex, refined and indeed, better, than at Atelier....)

actually, hmm...I'd also point out that even a meal "on the cheap" at Atelier is simply not going to be less than $150....one can eat dinner at JG, LB and Daniel for $150 as well.

so, I question your premise altogether.

[Joe Gerard]

true...and I noted that in my review earlier in this thread.

but there's also no question that by far the best experience is the tasting menu...and it is simply overpriced....(the chef's tasting menu at JG is $30 cheaper and I don't see how there can be a smidgeon of an argument that the cuisine is not more complex, refined and indeed, better, than at Atelier....)

actually, hmm...I'd also point out that even a meal "on the cheap" at Atelier is simply not going to be less than $150....one can eat dinner at JG, LB and Daniel for $150 as well.

so, I question your premise altogether.

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I disagree that the cuisine at JG, LB and Daniel is better (I have had very disappointing experiences at each), but that will always be a subjective matter. But clearly one can dine at Atelier for much less than $150, and many people availed themselves of the opportunity when I was there.

[Nathan]

I'm very curious as to how one could manage to dine for less than $150 at Atelier. I certainly didn't see anyone doing so.

I ate there "on the cheap." had the langoustine, the squid (both very small tasting-menu style courses), split the pastrami and then had the quail. thankfully I had a large lunch that day...none of these were large courses.

a cocktail and two glasses of wine, tax, tip. total? $148

I really liked the food at Atelier...but was it as nuanced, complex, consistent or indeed, simply as good as the food at JG? we have very, very different palates I guess.

the whole point of Atelier is that the cuisine is stripped down and simplified. The closest comparison to Atelier is Bar Room at the Modern, except that Atelier is better and much more expensive.

Edited September 26, 2006 by Nathan (log)

[larrylee]

The reservation policy was mentioned in this piece from the NY Sun: A Top Chef Arrives in New York (Finally).

Specifically:

Even after the official opening, the restaurant will have a surprisingly egalitarian reservation policy: Reservations will be accepted for the first seatings only, 11:30 a.m. for lunch and 6 p.m. for dinner, and after that it's first-come-first-served. The same system is in place at its Parisian sister, and it has the French, uncharacteristically, often waiting in a queue on Rue de Montalembert.

It seems as though the policy has changed? Or maybe someone just got it completely wrong.

[Fat Guy]

I'm having trouble understanding the price issue. Joe seems to have summed it up best: you can order whatever you want. For example, from the "small tasting portions" section of the menu I have (this may be outdated) you could order:

Les Cuisses De Grenouille - crispy frog's legs, garlic puree and parsley couils 17.00

L'oeuf - soft boiled eggs on a spicy eggplant stew 17.00

Le Calamar - sauteed squid, baby artichoke, chorizo, with tomato water 18.00

So that would get you to $52 for food. Tax would add $4.50 and a 20% tip would be $10.40.

Granted that wouldn't be a filling meal, but it would give one the opportunity to experience Robuchon's food for $65 grand total. Those prices -- $17, $18 -- are comparable to what the Bar Room at the Modern charges for its small plates.

Now, if you want to start ordering various $48 and $58 plates, or a tasting menu, or wine, or whatever, then it's going to cost more. That seems more a matter of self-control than what the restaurant allows, though. I imagine one could just order that egg-eggplant dish, pay the $17 and walk out the door. Grab a slice of pizza afterwards if the goal of filling your belly (which is so not the point of haute cuisine) hasn't been met. The point being, very few restaurants offer you the ability to do that.

[Nathan]

(as an aside, one could do that at lunch at JG for even less)

one would have to a darn thick skin to order those three (very tiny) tasting plates (they are one-quarter the size of the slightly lower-priced plates at Bar Room at the Modern), no wine, and walk out.

And I highly doubt anyone here has seen anyone actually do that.

in terms of a realistic meal, Atelier is quite simply not cheaper than any four star restaurant in town (except for Per Se and Ducasse -- and its tasting menu is at that price level) and, though very good, is not serving food at that level.

yeah, I could theoretically show up, order the langoustine fritter (which is great and a bargain by the way), say that I need time to think about my other courses and the wine, eat it, make up an excuse, ask for the bill and leave....but I sure as heck hope that no one here would actually do something that gauche.

edit: one more point, FG, those three items you listed above...at those prices are tiny tasting portions, not appetizers (they are not equivalent to the small plates at Bar Room at the Modern). you'd need more than a slice of pizza after. those are literally portioned the same as early courses in a 12-16 course tasting menu....

Edited September 26, 2006 by Nathan (log)

[Fat Guy]

I absolutely would do that -- just as I'd go into any restaurant that serves food at the bar and order just an appetizer -- and it's no more gauche than the idea of an "atelier" where you sit at a counter overlooking the kitchen. The restaurant holds itself out as a casual place where you can order as much or as little as you want, and I take that claim at face value. Anyone who feels bound by some secret set of rules to spend $150 on every visit is free to do so, but it's a choice not a requirement.

[Nathan]

this exposes the existential conundrum at the heart of Atelier.

although it purports to be a casual kitchen counter....it is much more formal than that.

considering the work that one would go through to actually get a seat at the bar (making a reservation or drinking $20 cocktails at another bar while waiting for two hours to get a seat)...no one is ordering a 3 bite $20 taste and leaving. (none of the plates FG listed are appetizers in any sense of the word)...

I understand what you're saying, but your understanding of what Atelier is (I'll grant that it purports to be so) is not accurate.

and I think Joe Gerard is vastly underestimating what people around him were actually paying.

[Fat Guy]

Sometime in October I'll try to test this hypothesis.

[Joe Gerard]

this exposes the existential conundrum at the heart of Atelier.

although it purports to be a casual kitchen counter....it is much more formal than that.

considering the work that one would go through to actually get a seat at the bar (making a reservation or drinking $20 cocktails at another bar while waiting for two hours to get a seat)...no one is ordering a 3 bite $20 taste and leaving.  (none of the plates FG listed are appetizers in any sense of the word)...

I understand what you're saying, but your understanding of what Atelier is (I'll grant that it purports to be so) is not accurate.

and I think Joe Gerard is vastly underestimating what people around him were actually paying.

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To be clear, I ate there in early September and ordered the most expensive tasting menu (I believe it was $160). There was a much less expensive tasting menu offered (around $60-$80). Some of the courses included in my tasting menu were very small (the amazing langoustine) while others were quite sizable (the poached egg over spicy eggplant stew). During my entire meal the only other people to eat at the bar were a party of three who ordered two less expensive plates each plus dessert, and another couple who also ordered two plates each plus dessert. At no time did I, or as far as I could tell, my fellow diners, feel harassed or compelled to order more food or wine. My waiter, in fact, assumed I wanted the cheaper tasting menu until I corrected him. An amazing bread basket sits right in front of each diner to eat as much or as little of as he or she may desire (much in my case). Service was friendly, chatty without being overbearing and the counter atmosphere adds to this comfort level. I'll leave it to FG and others to decide for themselves.

[Nathan]

Here were the parameters of my meal at L'Atelier:

one tasting menu only was offered: for $165.

most courses were offered in either tasting menu or appetizer sizes...(prices were $18-30 for tasting portions and $30-72 for appetizer size).

the place was almost entirely full (completely so by 9ish)....on an extremely rainy Labor Day weekend night.

bread was provided upon request but no basket was left.

it sounds like they may have modified the menu since then...which could change matters.

edit: I was subtlely encouraged to order more than I did.

what day of the week were you there?

it is good news if they have changed the format. but if you read up this thread, your experience was the singular one. (albeit, you seem to have had the most recent experience)

Edited September 26, 2006 by Nathan (log)

[Sneakeater]

For the record:

1. The two times I ate at Atelier (both during the "soft opening" phase in August), the counter, at least, was completely full.

2. There was only a $160 tasting menu then.

3. Unlike Nathan, I didn't feel any pressure to order any particular amount of food.

4. Both times I was there, most Americans at the counter were ordering tasting menus, and most Europeans and Asians seemed to be ordering a la carte. (I attributed this to the exchange rate.*) Few people were ordering very little (or, to eliminate the double negative, the people who were ordering a la carte seemed to be ordering a lot).

5. Both times, I had to ask for bread, and then I had to ask separately for butter. I found the bread unexceptional.

6. Both times, I found the service friendly (but not overly familiar or obtrusive) and -- except for the bread service -- fully competent.

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* I understand that, theoretically, you could order very little off the a la carte menu and get off relatively cheaply. As a practical matter, though, I can't imagine waiting an hour for a seat and then ordering only a little. It isn't just a matter of "self control"; it's a matter of the value of time. So from a value perpsective, the tasting menu seems to me (and, apparently, many of my fellow diners) to be a much better deal than the a la carte menu. I do agree, though, that no opprobrium would be heaped on anyone who only ordered a small plate or two.

Edited September 26, 2006 by Sneakeater (log)

[Sneakeater]

Isn't the problem with fitting Atelier into the star system that the whole point of the enterprise is that it isn't supposed to fit into the star system?

Edited September 26, 2006 by Sneakeater (log)

[Fat Guy]

Atelier in Paris has one Michelin star.

[Fat Guy]

(and two "expected")

[Sneakeater]

Yeah, but that's sort of what I mean. It isn't "really" a one-star restaurant. The food is much better than that. It just doesn't make sense to analyze it in those terms. It's sort of a hybrid existing outside the borders of that kind of analysis. (And it makes even less sense here, where the local "star" analysis has so much to do with how much the food costs.) That's why I think all the agonizing about whether it's a NYT "four star" or "two star" is beside the point.

Edited September 26, 2006 by Sneakeater (log)

[Sneakeater]

(and two "expected")

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Sorry. Missed that when I posted the above.

[Fat Guy]

This seems like a late challenge to the star system, which can't even evaluate Sripraphai adequately. Still, I think the theoretical question might be more interesting if the Times had a critic capable of making a coherent evaluation of any French restaurant, and if Michelin NYC had any real criteria left to its name. We've probably wandered off into pure star-talk, though, which we've got other topics for . . . .

[Sneakeater]

Yeah, sorry.

[Swicks]

For those interested I posted a review of the Vegas location in the thread in the Southwest section.

Lets just say Robin Leach and the man himself Joel Robuchon were both involved....