FoH Staff That Judge the BoH

[alanamoana]

funny you should say this...i think as pretentious as new york city can be, people can get away with being more casual than you'd think just because there are so many restaurants to choose from. and yes, expensive/nice looking jeans with a cute top or khakis, etc. for men are perfectly acceptable attire at most mid to high end restaurants in the city. sheer numbers and competition.

i think when you get to places like the outer banks or a resort area or a smaller town that only has one or two "nice" places to eat, the expectations for the guests to dress up and be rwf is much higher. the service people tend to be snootier because they're working in the only place like that in town. sort of a provincial snootiness...

and of course, after typing the above, i realize all the stereotyping i've done in making all those assumptions

Sorry to intrude in the NYC topic, but my wife and I vacation on the Outer banks of North Carolina.  There is a place ther called Elizabeth's cafe.  It is amongst the highest rated place in this area and has received many awards for food and wine.

We went there once. The single most pretentious bunch of people I have ever see.  I know just a little bit about food, wine, spirits and service.  An attempt to engage the staff and the owner in the selections was went with sheer disdain. I was dressed like everyone else in the place, but I drove a Chevy and my wife does not wear flashy bling. But we clearly were not like alot of the other customers.  My wife and I have a name for the kind of customere this place was looking for. RWF.  That stands for rich white folks.

We are actually all three of those things but don't act like it. 

Guess what owners. All us customers ought be treated with respect. If you only want a certain type of customer post it on the door. I know plenty of pretentious folks who will spend big money to be condesended by the staff and enjoy that as part of the experience.  Not me.  I go out to enjopy myself not to be treated like crap by some establishment that does not think I fit in

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[Mikeb19]

Strait up, a lot of restaurants do indeed have FOH that are 'snooty'. I've even worked at a few. Not a fun atmosphere to be around. Lately however, the trend in Europe and elsewhere has been towards more casual restaurants still serving very high end food. Heck, from what I hear El Bulli is incredibly relaxed and un-pretentious. Just stay away from the restaurants that have a pretentious atmosphere.

More than a few times I've had the host/hostess of a restaurant try to tell me I'm not welcome, until they are told who I am, then the apologies come... I agree, it can be frustrating when people judge you based on looks (sometimes I just want to pop into a restaurant before or after service, I don't dress up to do that), but that's just the way it is. I don't think much of it, because they're not the kind of people I associate with anyway, I have nothing to prove to them. I grew up poor, no one in the hood cared about what you were wearing, it was all about respect, loyalty. And those are the kind of people I still hang with, I don't have a use for the pretentious kind.

Let it be known how you feel with your wallet. They don't treat you right, then don't give them your money again. Tell people. If you're a somebody in the industry then the word will get around quickly. Or even better, if you know the Chef then tell him what his FOH are doing. He'll straiten them out.

[bethala]

although i agree with dressing the part and going with a restaurant's flow, i don’t think anyone can deny the fact that there are sometimes things that cannot be controlled by a guest that can make some servers have preconceived notions about that guest, including sex, race, perceived age, perceived sexual orientation, attractiveness, kids in tow -- i could go on. in fact, i know someone who worked at a manhattan restaurant where management told her in a roundabout way to seat guests not of a certain race at the worst tables. some foh staff might indeed have preconceived notions about how much a guest is going to spend, tip, etc., based on that guest’s race, gender, age, etc. but unless that staff member explicitly states that he is operating under those prejudices (and when does that happen?), it's impossible for you as the guest to determine what's going on and whether that person is just a horrible/snobby person to begin with, having a bad day, or what.

over the years, when confronted with snobby service, i’ve come to realize that it’s not my job to figure out what the problem is, but simply to remain polite and civil and try to have the best time i can have and then take the appropriate steps (outlined earlier in this thread) to air my grievance with management. and, once again, the importance of becoming a regular can’t be overstated. if you become a regular at a place where you really enjoy all other aspects of a place except the service, the service often improves as you become more familiar to the staff, even staff who might have been snobby or rude to you in the beginning. it’s just human nature.

and of course, wearing a cape always ensures excellent service.

[Grub]

As a classical performer, I have to tell you I strongly disagree. I want people to come to my performances, and I'm happy they're there, regardless of what they're wearing.

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In Manchest, we'd go see the Hallé Orchestra every chance we got (cheap tickets for students) and we'd wear what we'd always wear -- cos we were there to enjoy the music, not be see and be seen. If you were to enforce a dress code, in order to ensure an enjoyable evening, you'd ban the prats in white ties cause it was always those assholes who'd talk during the performance -- cos they weren't actually there for the music.

Doesn't E Bulli have a casual dress code?

I have a small dream -- that people will be judged on the content of their character, and not the price tag of the clothes on their backs.

[alanamoana]

or as stephen colbert said "i have a dream---cicle..."

[BigboyDan]

Well, when in Rome... but, always remember, you can just get up and go elsewhere.

Since I am a working chef and deal with waiters and other FOH regularly, I don't take two seconds of their attitute.

As a patron, the instant that I feel a negative vibe from any FOH, I literally state to him/her that I, and my party, would gladly go elsewhere if there is any problem (look straight in their eyes). 100% of the responses that I've received were, "No, please enjoy your meal.", or such. Put the adjustment in demeaner on them... you're paying.

[Meredith380]

I have to agree with the posters who mentioned that NYC has become increasingly lenient with their dress code policies. I was recently at Mets games and able to dine at Ruth Chris and Del Friscos. While neither are close to four star restaurants, I wouldn't have dreamed of going to a steak house in a casual skirt and tank top, carrying a bag stuffed with a jersey. But we were assured it was not an issue, and other dinners were not much more dressed up than we were (this was on Saturday and Sunday nights).

I work in restaurants that enforce a strict "jacket required" policy. In the past few days (110 plus heat indices in NJ), it's been met with disbelief. I see no issue in relaxing that requirement, but it isn't up to me.

Believe me, the majority of the time a hostess has to turn away a guest because they aren't within the dress code requirements of the facility, that uncomfortable look in their eyes is not because they're viewing you with distain-- it's more being uncomfortable with turning away a guest. Although, 98% of restaurants with policies state them before you enter the establishment-- which can lead to distain when a lack of regard for the policy is blatantly obvious.

[Sugarella]

I can't believe the snobbery from some of you people! You really think a waiter is looking down on you becasue you're not wearing $800 shoes!? They can't afford $800 shoes themselves so they certainly wouldn't look down on anyone else who can't either.

This isn't about what you can afford or how rich you appear to be. It's about how you're behaving. You don't show up to a fancy place in the same clothes you'd wear to the laundromat, for pete's sake, it's a blatant act of disrespect to the restauranteur and his/her staff who are puttng the effort into maintaining the place as classy. Your waiter should never be dressed better than you. Even if the waiter has to wear a tux, your clothing should at least be as tidy and clean pressed as theirs is, even if what you're wearing is less formal.

By walking into a fancy place wearing jeans where you are clearly underdressed, you're simply stating, "I control this atmosphere despite what the staff or other patrons want, because the whole world revolves around me." It's that attitude from the get-go that has everyone else copping attitude in response.

Next time, lose the attitude, wearing something dress casual, and try not to fart at the table.

[Meredith380]

Believe me, a server, particularly one in a high end restaurant, can afford $800 shoes.

[Mikeb19]

I can't believe the snobbery from some of you people! You really think a waiter is looking down on you becasue you're not wearing $800 shoes!? They can't afford $800 shoes themselves so they certainly wouldn't look down on anyone else who can't either.

I can guarantee, most servers at high end places can indeed afford $800 shoes, unless they have some sort of drug habit (and I've known enough servers who DO wear $800 shoes, Rolex watches, and drive BMW or Mercedes cars). It's kind of silly how big a disparity there is between what the FOH and BOH make in fine-dining restaurants, but I'll try not to get into that too much. Let's just say though I've known servers and bartenders who will make 60-70K a year, working 20 hours a week. Obviously those are the excellent servers, but many more are making 35-50K a year, still part-time hours (only counting a single job, many have 2 or more jobs). The last job I worked most of the servers were making more money than the Executive Chef.

[alanamoana]

and i've definitely worked in enough high end restaurants to have heard the snickering comments from servers about what "table number such and such is wearing" and "can you believe they ordered that???"

it does happen. i probably wouldn't have to deal with such a chip on my shoulder if i didn't work in the back of the house!

[Sneakeater]

This may initially seem off-topic, but it really isn't.

It really pisses me off that people wear jeans and sneakers to (non-pop) concerts and theatrical performances.   I think it's disrespectful to the performers.[...]

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As a classical performer, I have to tell you I strongly disagree. I want people to come to my performances, and I'm happy they're there, regardless of what they're wearing. Furthermore, when I'm not performing at a concert, I dress informally, myself. I'll bet if you ask other classical performers whether they feel disrespected because someone came to hear them while wearing jeans, you'll get a lot of laughs from them.

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Thanks for that response. I was really hoping to hear from you about this.

Edited August 4, 2006 by Sneakeater (log)

[Sneakeater]

But it is educational.  It has taken me all of these years to discover, I had better wear a pair of $800 shoes if I want to insure that when I dine out in a city like New York, my asparagus will receive the attention it deserves in the steamer.

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Thing is, that's not what anybody is saying here.

The "not rich enough" title of this thread is sort of misleading.

There's a HUGE difference between having to wear "$800 shoes" and being discouraged from wearing sneakers. As someone pointed out, you could appropriately wear clothing that's LESS expensive than the most expensive jeans and the most expensive sneakers.

It's not about money. It's about a restaurant's determining what it considers an appropriate style of dress.

Edited August 4, 2006 by Sneakeater (log)

[Sneakeater]

funny you should say this...i think as pretentious as new york city can be, people can get away with being more casual than you'd think just because there are so many restaurants to choose from.  and yes, expensive/nice looking jeans with a cute top or khakis, etc. for men are perfectly acceptable attire at most mid to high end restaurants in the city.  sheer numbers and competition.

i think when you get to places like the outer banks or a resort area or a smaller town that only has one or two "nice" places to eat, the expectations for the guests to dress up and be rwf is much higher.  the service people tend to be snootier because they're working in the only place like that in town.  sort of a provincial snootiness...

and of course, after typing the above, i realize all the stereotyping i've done in making all those assumptions 

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Actually, despite everything I've said in this thread, I completely agree with you that New York in general seems to me to be much less dressy than most other places in the country. When you go to restaurants, if you look hard enough it usually seems that the most dressed-up people are visiting from elsewhere.

So I'll take this opportunity to say again, I don't think this is about putting on formalwear to eat, or dressing in some wildly fancy or expensive manner. It's about complying with (and anticipating) basic dress codes that don't require anything elaborate -- but which still have their requirements.

In other words, what's the big deal?

And I don't think it's about snobbery or class antagonism, as many posters have suggested.

[Sneakeater]

I can't believe the snobbery from some of you people! You really think a waiter is looking down on you becasue you're not wearing $800 shoes!? They can't afford $800 shoes themselves so they certainly wouldn't look down on anyone else who can't either.

This isn't about what you can afford or how rich you appear to be. It's about how you're behaving. You don't show up to a fancy place in the same clothes you'd wear to the laundromat, for pete's sake, it's a blatant act of disrespect to the restauranteur and his/her staff who are puttng the effort into maintaining the place as classy. Your waiter should never be dressed better than you. Even if the waiter has to wear a tux, your clothing should at least be as tidy and clean pressed as theirs is, even if what you're wearing is less formal.

By walking into a fancy place wearing jeans where you are clearly underdressed, you're simply stating, "I control this atmosphere despite what the staff or other patrons want, because the whole world revolves around me." It's that attitude from the get-go that has everyone else copping attitude in response.

Next time, lose the attitude, wearing something dress casual, and try not to fart at the table. 

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OK, so I didn't have to say any of that stuff, cuz Sugarella said it better. Sorry.

[MissAmy]

But it is educational.  It has taken me all of these years to discover, I had better wear a pair of $800 shoes if I want to insure that when I dine out in a city like New York, my asparagus will receive the attention it deserves in the steamer.

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Thing is, that's not what anybody is saying here.

The "not rich enough" title is sort of misleading.

There's a HUGE difference between having to wear "$800 shoes" and not wearing sneakers. As someone pointed out, you could appropriately wear clothing that's LESS expensive than the most expensive jeans and the most expensive sneakers.

It's not about money. It's about a restaurant's determining what it considers an appropriate style of dress.

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I agree with that. I do not wear Manolo Blahniks (or however they're spelled) or Jimmy Choos or Chanel or Dior mainly because I can't afford those things and even if I could afford them there are other things I'd rather spend my money on, like food! That said, even when I have been in cities like New York, LA, Hong Kong, Tokyo, etc, I've almost never been treated badly by waitstaff, mainly because I do tend to dress well within my budget.

I don't think it is snobbery to expect patrons not to wear jeans in a three or four star restaurant, just like no one expects you to wear an evening gown to the Salt Lick.

[slkinsey]

This may initially seem off-topic, but it really isn't.

It really pisses me off that people wear jeans and sneakers to (non-pop) concerts and theatrical performances.  I think it's disrespectful to the performers.[...]

As a classical performer, I have to tell you I strongly disagree. I want people to come to my performances, and I'm happy they're there, regardless of what they're wearing. Furthermore, when I'm not performing at a concert, I dress informally, myself. I'll bet if you ask other classical performers whether they feel disrespected because someone came to hear them while wearing jeans, you'll get a lot of laughs from them.

Thanks for that response. I was really hoping to hear from you.

Interestingly, I disagree. But that could be largely a function of the different areas of classical music in which Michael and I work. In opera, glamor is part of the deal. I don't think it's respectful to the performers, to the (usually quite elegant) venue or to the other attendees when someone wears shorts and a t-shirt to the Metropolitan Opera. Met Opera in the Park? Different story. I hold similar views on, say, Le Bernadin and Shake Shack.

[Sneakeater]

This may initially seem off-topic, but it really isn't.

It really pisses me off that people wear jeans and sneakers to (non-pop) concerts and theatrical performances.   I think it's disrespectful to the performers.[...]

As a classical performer, I have to tell you I strongly disagree. I want people to come to my performances, and I'm happy they're there, regardless of what they're wearing. Furthermore, when I'm not performing at a concert, I dress informally, myself. I'll bet if you ask other classical performers whether they feel disrespected because someone came to hear them while wearing jeans, you'll get a lot of laughs from them.

Thanks for that response. I was really hoping to hear from you.

Interestingly, I disagree. But that could be largely a function of the different areas of classical music in which Michael and I work. In opera, glamor is part of the deal. I don't think it's respectful to the performers, to the (usually quite elegant) venue or to the other attendees when someone wears shorts and a t-shirt to the Metropolitan Opera. Met Opera in the Park? Different story. I hold similar views on, say, Le Bernadin and Shake Shack.

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Thanks for the response. I was also hoping to hear from you.

If Bergerka can post on this, I'll have a Trifecta.

Edited August 4, 2006 by Sneakeater (log)

[Sneakeater]

and i've definitely worked in enough high end restaurants to have heard the snickering comments from servers about what "table number such and such is wearing" and "can you believe they ordered that???"

it does happen.  i probably wouldn't have to deal with such a chip on my shoulder if i didn't work in the back of the house!

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But that's just human nature. The issue is the extent to which it spills over into the service the customer gets. If the wait staff is at all professional, it shouldn't.

Obviously, the racial profiling described upthread by you or someone else with professional experience is intolerable.

[alanamoana]

happily, i haven't come across much racial profiling.

my intent in participating in this discussion is just to play devil's advocate. i believe in dressing according to what i think other patrons (of the arts and of the restaurant) are wearing, within my budget. i just don't happen to have a big budget. because i work back of house, i'm so accustomed to having a uniform on the rest of my wardrobe suffers. i don't shop. so often, i'm not as nattily dressed as others. but i wouldn't show up at le bernardin in sneakers and jeans either, regardless of how expensive those sneakers and jeans are.

i'm glad pan and slkinsey chimed in as well. you ask twenty people, you're going to get twenty different responses...that's what these forums are about.

[Sneakeater]

Does anybody really think that what therese describes in this post is wrong?

http://forums.egullet.org/index.php?act=ST...dpost&p=1172242

[NYC Mike]

happily, i haven't come across much racial profiling.

Unfortunatly, we have run into quite a bit of it, and surprisingly more in NYC than anywhere else. My wife is clearly Dominican and at lesser service oriented restaurants we are treated differently, profiled if you will, into a group of customers who are not destined to leave a good tip.

Class and Race-ism are real and that is not likely to change, especially in service oriented situations where a human is given the ability to pre-judge based on their sometimes limited experience with people different than themselves.

We don't punish on tip though since we would be hitting the also minority bus and runner staff that depend on them. We just don't go back.

We also would not wear jeans to ADNY or Daniel but might to Lupa or WD.

mike

[alligande]

I live in a resort town and a few years ago there was a series of letters written to the local paper, regarding dress code. The one that started the commotion was a letter complaining that a party had been turned away from a nice restauraunt (for lunch) because of attire, one of the group (male) was wearing a "wife beater" for want of a better term and how this was ridiculous in a seaside town etc etc. Not a single follow-up letter supported this position (and there where lots) and every one supported the restauraunts decision, mostly based on who wants to eat an expensive lunch looking at a pair of hairy armpits.

There is nothing wrong with a dress code I have lived in the Carribean where the island had a dress code, no beach attire in town, and you can spot a tourist at a restauraunt by their attire as residents also make an effort to dress.

I strongly believe that if an establishment has created a certain ambience then you should make an effort to look appropraite so that your fellow dinners can enjoy the enviroment to the fullest, if you do not want to dress that night, then there are usually other options.

Edited August 4, 2006 by alligande (log)

[Alchemist]

I would have to diagree with the statement that NYC is less dressy than other parts of the country. I was just in a large Metropolitan mid western city, and was amazed with the almost complete lack of style. The amount of overly pleated kacki shorts/Tevas/sunglasses still pushed up on a bad haircut (at night) in a nice resturant was appaling. I know it's hot, god invented linen, and seer sucker. There are times when we all just want to dress for comfort. Fine don't go somewhere nice.

[slkinsey]

I think NYC is one of the most dressy cities in America.