Anatomy of a Dinner Party

[wkl]

v- okay to bump this back up?

in the cooking forum there is discussion of the likes/dislikes of brining. and it brought up the concept promoted in the zuni cafe book of pre-salting. i haven't read it, but it's about 1 tablespoon of salt left on meat overnight.

i've been getting great results using the brine technique from your copper river salmon thread on flank steak and pork tenderloin. i use about 2 tablespoons of salt/sugar/other seasoning per pound for two hours then wash the brine off. is this essentially the same technique?

can you offer some thoughts/opinions on pre salting vs your salt/sugar brining technique vs. liquid brines. when would you use one over the other, are there protiens that take well to one but not the other. is there a meat or fish that you would never brine?

[Vadouvan]

It can be dicey...

The ratio of salt to sugar in my dry cure is pretty conservative but also enough to assure that searing the said item would burn it very quickly because of caramelization.

Note this is different from the typical misuse of the word "caramelize" when people are cooking meat or fish.

Searing a piece of meat in a pan is not "caramelizing" it, you are just BROWNING it and putting a surface crust that makes it tastier...ie the Maillard reactions.

THUS....

That is why the slow roasted technique works because only hot air contacts the product.

I presalt for a few hours for Items that will be CESV (cuit en sous vide) as I find that the post cooking flavor profile is better.

Brining Liquids tend to give a corned beef type texture which I am not a fan of depeneding on how long you brine but they do result in moister end products with poultry .

Brining also is requisite for smoked meats.

I dry cure my pork belly and sucklings and then cook for about 3 days but I now have ha ratio of cure to meat by the pound...compunded with time to ensure it isnt over salted.

I think WD 50's pork belly for example is brined as it is pinker and may involve the use of sel rose.......speculation here.

My Japanese boys at Gari tell me virtually all sushi fish is lightly presalted for some period of time.

[percyn]

V, speaking of pork belly... I picked some up from RTM and put it in a 70C waterbath for about 20hrs (did not have time for the entire 24hr period), then in a 300F oven for 1hr and seared with a hoisin glaze.

While guests enjoyed it, it was not as tender as other porked bellies I have had CESV. Do you think it was the quality of the meat, time in the water bath, time in the oven or some other brain dead thing that I might have been doing? How can I create a porkbelly which melts in your mouth (not on your plate )?

Cheers

Percy

[wkl]

percy,v -

i'm actually cooking my first pork belly today, i don't have suis vide equipment. should i just follow a braising recipie from molly stevens? thought i would finish over charcoal grill quickly before serving.

thoughts?

will short cure help?

[percyn]

I am not familiar with Molly Steven's recipe, but have braised pork belly before, just like short ribs and they turn out great (may have a bit more fat).

Haven't tried grilling it either, but a saute pan on hi works great.

Edited September 10, 2006 by percyn (log)

[Vadouvan]

Short cures may help in fixing the spice component of the cure Bill but I believe you can also do that by just adding the spices to the braising fluid vehicle.

I would cut it into maybe......3x3 chunks and not move it around too much.

If you finish over a grill, you woud have to cool it completely till solid and then gill it.

Pork bellies are notoriously fragile post cooking because essentially the layers between lean and fat will seperate while hot so your grill will just be a mess and possibly ruin the meat too, just braise and eat..........Or grill before braising...that would work.

Percy....in order to get more melting bellies extend your cooking time.

The belly I had with you last time was 70 to 72 hrs......I know the length of time is absurd but think of it as a certificate of deposit, the earlier you get out, the worse of you are .....

Also double bag.

Cryo seal and the seal the sealed bag again in another cryoseal.

Lengthy cooking sometimes opens the seals of bags.

Cheers

[wkl]

v, thanks for making us all better cooks............

[Vadouvan]

v, thanks for making us all better cooks...........

Thanks.....but *YOU* are making yourselves better cooks.

Answers are out there, its the willingness to seek them and ask questions that make people better at what they do.

[BryanZ]

How have I missed this thread? A great read throughout. Vadouvan does some truly exemplary and inspirational things.

With that said I've been on the look out for plates like this forever.

Are they Bernardaud? Does anyone know of a dealer or manufacturer where I can get something similar for less?

[Vadouvan]

Zupon....sup

Ummmm.....Unfortunately Yes, Bernadaud and $52 a piece.

I buy it directly from Bernadaud or the price would be even more ridiculous AND they will only sell 12 at a time.

However since I made this purchase, there are two new companies that make some similar stuff for way less. It's not Limoges but still has strong visual impact.

1. Rhubarb.

2. F.O.H

In decent homeware stores, fosters in olde city in philly and a couple of places in nolita....like spring somewhere between elizabeth and west broadway.....maybe mott.

I am pretty sure within 4 blocks of Room 4 D.

Getting used to the time zone here.....

Edited September 28, 2006 by Vadouvan (log)

[wkl]

"Getting used to the time zone here....."

where are ya?

[Vadouvan]

Coming back from the middle of the country........You know...where the "republican soccer moms" are swinging, going to church and voting for family values............

[Buckethead]

Zupon....sup

Ummmm.....Unfortunately Yes, Bernadaud and $52 a piece.

I buy it directly from Bernadaud or the price would be even more ridiculous AND they will only sell 12 at a time.

However since I made this purchase, there are two new companies that make some similar stuff for way less. It's not Limoges but still has strong visual impact.

1. Rhubarb.

2. F.O.H

←

Can you give us a little more info about these? I searched briefly online but all I found were a few Rhubarb pieces on the Foster's site, nothing like what you were using in the photos above. I'm looking to replace my inherited Corelle with something a little nicer looking (and white), but $50 per piece is way off. What does FOH stand for?

[Andrew Fenton]

What does FOH stand for?

Front of house?

[Pontormo]

percy,v -

i'm actually cooking my first pork belly today, i don't have suis vide equipment. should i just follow a braising recipie from molly stevens? thought i would finish over charcoal grill quickly before serving.

thoughts?

will short cure help?

←

W: Did you end up using MS's recipe? I got my instructions from Ling and am pretty sure they were adapted from that recipe since Henry Lo posted in the cooking thread devoted to her book on braising. I had to cook the pork belly for a longer period of time and reduce the sauce quite a bit after that. Lately this seems to be a pattern with braises in my Dutch oven. The results were extraordinary.

[wkl]

yes, i used the recipie from "all about braising" with good results.not entirely clear on how much fat to render out of the belly though.

[BryanZ]

What does FOH stand for?

Front of house?

←

It's funny that FOH was mentioned. I saw some of their stuff at a trade show and was intrigued because it seemed cheap and relatively innovative shape-wise. They have a minimum order amount of $300 though, which doesn't really work for my needs.

To further complicate matters they sent me all kinds of literature but no pricing list, even after two requeusts. So far I'm kind of disappointed with them.

I also know the Thomas Keller's line has some really great shapes but they, too, are rather expensive. Maybe I'll ask for some plates for Christmas or something.

I will look into Rhubarb.

Thanks.

[wkl]

not fine china but, very cool stuff can be had at korin trading in nyc. or visit www.korin.com

[Rocklobster]

Somewhere between a first course and a dessert, which in this brutal heat works fine for me.

The presentation sucks, though.  Vadouvan, what guidelines do you follow in plating, etc?  I've always tended to follow the "lunchlady Doris" school of food presentation.  Efficient, but not exactly elegant; any advice?

←

Hrmm... I'm not Vadouvan but I'll give it a shot.

Do you know how to quenelle? If you do, a nice, tight quenelle looks very elegant. If not, then an ice-cream scoop will do the job. You should get rid of the foam on top of the beet juice. Spoon that off before service to give a nice, unmarred surface. Try use a gravy boat or some other cup with a spout to pour the beet juice. That way, you won't get unsightly splashes or smudges on the side of the bowl. Finally, that fennel frond is way to big as a garnish. Consider just using 1 branch of it. Those are the main technical things.

From a stylistic pov, I find that I like to serve intensely coloured liquids in deeper bowls to give it more body. I really like these bowls Vadouvan has:

.

With a soup of that intensity, the natural human inclination is to want to see just how dense the colour is. Our eyes are naturally drawn to the edges of the bowl in order to see the colour gradation. Unfortunately, your choice of bowl and the foam on the edge makes this impossible. Take a look at Vadouvan's soup, the edge has a nice curve and the soup is clear and unblemished so you get a very nice gradient.

Also, the blue rim on your bowl doesn't do any favors for the colour of the soup. Either go with nice, understated white or something which doesn't clash. Alternatively, you can try serving it in clear glass which is quite fun. Either martini glasses or the rippled glass bowls.

The next decision you have to make is whether you want to go with a more geometric/modernist style plating or organic/impressionist style. The sorbet and soup are already inherently geometric so the only thing you can really play around with is the fennel. Either place a single large fennel frond in the centre of your sorbet for a geometric look or gently place some snippets of fennel around your soup for a more organic and chaotic feel.

edit: With that an intense a coloured soup, you shouldn't really be serving that much. My natural instinct when I look at that much soup is that I just wouldn't be able to finish or enjoy it. Part of that is your choice of camera angle. For something that dark, only a spoonful or two should pack such a depth of flavour that I'm satisfied. Again, Vadouvan has roughly the right idea in terms of portion size (although I gather his meal has more courses). If you can, make the bowl deeper. Deep bowls makes it looks like you have less food. Or, you can do what I do is plate a smaller portion than I would eat for the photograph and then just have seconds.

In terms of photography, your lighting is not optimal. The light is mainly coming from above and to the front. What that means is that you've wiped out a lot of the texture of the dish. Take a look at the sorbet, it's a huge mass of orange on the front. Lighting from the side would have brought out the craggy, icy texture of the sorbet.

Thats all I got for now. Hope that was a help. But remember, plating should be fun. If it's not fun for you, don't bother. It'll still be equally as delicious.

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WHO MAKES THOSE BOWLS?the ones with the huge rim and tiny bowl?? i cant find those online?? what company?

Edited November 7, 2006 by Rocklobster (log)

[Vadouvan]

Those my friend are made by Bernadaud, Limoges china.

Extremely expensive.

$52 each.

Bernadaud is based in NYC

Or you can go to Michael C Fina on 5th avenue.

toodle ooo

[Rocklobster]

Is their anyone who sells these guys online that you know of?? Or perhaps I'll have to make a run down to 5th avenue to check out the Fina show room...

Oh also! the flat plate with the raised circular center...who makes that?? Same people??

Visit the TestKitchen

[Vadouvan]

I use Bernadaud, Rosenthal and Reynaud China, its all at MC Fina.

I dont know if anyone sells online.

Rosenthal is german and based in NJ.

I order the Reynaud from France, the prices they charge at MC Fina, they must be smoking pot.

Neiman marcus and JE Caldwell also carry that stuff.

[wkl]

hey v,

with t'giving squarely in everyones' sights, could we entice you to give us your take on "the anatomy of a thanksgiving dinner?"

something tells me you don't pop a 50 pound butterball in the oven and get out a can of cranberry sauce.

[Vadouvan]

Funny You should ask Bill.....

I have actually decided to completely deconstruct a turkey this year.

Really just out of boredom.

Turkey 2 Ways.

Involtini with the breast and sage, rolled like a torchon and cooked SV.

Escabeche the legs with tons of garlic and pimenton dulce.

Orange and Miso Glazed Sweet potatoes

Cranberry "Caviar" with calcium lactate and Sodium alginate.

Turkey jus with porcinis and rainwater madiera.

Puree of Marron.

Got a Rebel XT now so expect good pics.

[johnder]

oh sh*t.

this is gonna be dope.