Blumenthal: In Search of Perfection

[Zoticus]

There were several oddities:

Cooking at 50C is too low to do any actual cooking...

I'd cook at 57C for 8 hours or so, then blowtorch...

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Right, the inventor of Molecular Alchemy is wrong, maybe that's why the programme isn't called 'jackal10: In Search of Perfection'.

Edited November 18, 2006 by Zoticus (log)

[jackal10]

There is more than one path to heaven.

Ive tried cooking steak at 50C for 24 hours and personally I don't like the result.

24 hours at 50C is just on the safe limit of ten generations of bacterial growth, and where bacterial growth slows from heat death. Admittedly he blowtorches the outside, but the curve is very sensitive there. If the oven was at 49C the safe time is only about 6 hours, so 24 hours allows 40 generations of growth In that time each bacteria turns into about a billion (million million). For home use, without precision regulated ovens, that is just too close for comfort. 52C would be safer, with little effect on rate of the collagen dissolving.

Its a matter of taste and debate. I know chefs who refuse to cook one inch thick steak for more than 30 mins at 57C (about the FDA safe limit),claiming that the meat gets mushy (even if not more cooked in the conventional sense) if held at that temperature for longer. In part it depends on the thickness of the meat and hence the time taken to conduct heat to the middle.

I find 24 hours too mushy, and to my taste the my ideal for rib is about 8 hours, which is the about the time taken for the center to come to temperature, Not by coincidence this is also about the same time as the traditional "gigot a sept heure" or the time to roast a whole animal on a spit, an

Edited November 18, 2006 by jackal10 (log)

[Jon Tseng]

Perhaps you've got this the wrong way around. Where would Veyrat, Adria and Gagnaire be without treading the trail blazed by goodly Heston of the gleaming probe (thermometer)?

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Right, the inventor of Molecular Alchemy is wrong, maybe that's why the programme isn't called 'jackal10: In Search of Perfection'

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<sigh>

Dude, the only thing acting like a prat achieves is to convince other people that you are a prat.

Most people on this board who have reached puberty long ago realised it is possible to conduct grown up debates without resorting to childish ad hominem* attacks.

Personally I would recommend other members do their best to ignore our compadre's constant trolling**.

Now back to our normal programming?

J

* Those of you with a sense of irony will note that my comment "Most people on this board who have reached puberty" is an example of an ad hominen attack. For illustrative purposes only I can assure you.

** Those of you who have reached puberty and possess both a sense of irony and a taste for circular reasoning will note that I am failing to do precisely that. I assume it shows how I am the sort of immature pre-pubescent prat who will launch ad hominem attacks. Oh well guess it takes one to know one...

[jackal10]

Thanks Jon,

I think Zoticus was trying to say how can you question the authority of a world famous chef? Incidentally Heston is not claiming to be the inventor of Molecular anything - if anyone that title should go to the late Prof Nicholas Kurti, or to Herve This. Heston also does not claim to be a food scientist. He has some on his staff, and consults others, notable Peter Barham of Bristol University.

It raises the interesting question of authority in cooking (and science). For years the authority of Escoffier and Saulinier's "La Repertoire" could not be questioned in the Cusine Classique. Thus if Escoffier says (he does) a Tournedos is 1.25 inches thick, cut laterally from the centre of a filet, and a Chataubriand is twice or thrice that thick, fried in clarified butter, then that is what they are, and served with one of the prescribed sauces.

In science, authority is open - in principle, anyone can experiment and openly report the results, and results are only valid if they can be independently reproduced. It matters not who says it, but what is said. The philosopher Karl Popper http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_Popper is important here, and points out that in practice its is not that simple - theories are more likely to be accepted or papers published if they come from known sources, or support the conventional wisdom.

This thread is probably not the place to discuss such a complicated subject as authority in science and cuisine. If anyone is interested start a new thread..

Thus I can discuss low temperature cooking of steak, not because I am associated with a Michelin stared restaurant (although only voted Best Outside London Restaurant, not best in the World), but because I too have tried it, tasted it and experimented with different times and temperatures and studied the literature on bacterial growth modelling. However taste is just my opinion. There is no single "perfect steak". Your perfect steak is likely different from mine. I know people whose perfect steak is (shudder) well done. YMMV, as they say.

Edited November 19, 2006 by jackal10 (log)

[Zoticus]

Dude, the only thing acting like a prat achieves is to convince other people that you are a prat.

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I don't think defending Heston is acting like a 'prat'. All I see here is lots of amateurs having a dig.

We should be celebrating Heston, his is an inspirational rags to riches story that gives hope to millions of deprived youngsters. From a poverty stricken one bedroomed flat with all the family in the same bed on the mean streets of Paddington, becoming a champion kick-boxing to survive, and using his muscular body to earn a living the only way he knew how by debt collecting. Selling everything he owned to eat in the great restaurants of the world, and then, with no formal training, buying and refurbishing a former 12th century pub, which he has made into the undispitued number one restaurant in the world, and on the way inventing molecular gastronomy and revolutionizng cuisine! Not only that, but he is also teaching the scientists how to do their jobs too, as well as discovering the food of the past!

[danlepard]

We should be celebrating Heston, his is an inspirational rags to riches story that gives hope to millions of deprived youngsters. From a poverty stricken one bedroomed flat with all the family in the same bed on the mean streets of Paddington, becoming a champion kick-boxing to survive, and using his muscular body to earn a living the only way he knew how...

[kutsu]

This is the best thread on egullet ever.

Actually, this is the best ANYTHING, ever.

[TheBacchus]

Ah ha Mr Lepard - that is the most impeccibly timed entrance to a thread i have ever seen!

Bravo sir

[Tim Hayward]

... his is an inspirational rags to riches story that gives hope to millions of deprived youngsters. From a poverty stricken one bedroomed flat with all the family in the same bed on the mean streets of Paddington, becoming a champion kick-boxing to survive, and using his muscular body to earn a living the only way he knew how by debt collecting.

I'm profoundly suspicious of any celebrity's childhood as retold by a breathless biographer or ghost. Ordinary upbringings don't make good copy and any truth is difficult to establish.

Call me a cynic but I really don't buy 'Gordo the Glasgow Hardman' and I'm even suspicious of MPW's 'I grew up in Leeds but it's amazing how much it sounds like the flashback sequences of Once Upon a Time in America', but I'm trying to decide, from your hagiographic retelling of Heston's press releases whether you are ...

a) working for him or

b) stalking him

Please, in a spirit of disclosure, let us know either way.

[nimzo]

Dan,

When did you stop supplying the FD with bread?

[danlepard]

I never did supply them, Nimzo, a bakery I used to work for called Baker & Spice did. I left there about 6 years ago and haven't a clue if they still do supply them; I guess from your comment they don't.

D

[John Whiting]

Heston Blumenthal would perhaps be happier (and better) in a time and place that did not demand a mixture of two parts food to three parts hype. As for the ever-repeated Surprise Menu, Thomas Love Peacock destroyed this misguided aesthetic in his satirical novel Headlong Hall (1815):

“Allow me,” said Mr Gall. “I distinguish the picturesque and the beautiful, and I add to them, in the laying out of grounds, a third and distinct character, which I call unexpectedness.” “Pray, sir,” said Mr. Milestone, “by what name do you distinguish this character when a person walks around the grounds for the second time?” “Mr. Gall bit his lips, and inwardly vowed to revenge himself on Milestone, by cutting up his next publication

[Zoticus]

I'm trying to decide whether you are ...

a) working for him or

b) stalking him

Please, in a spirit of disclosure, let us know either way.

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c) neither.

[kutsu]

Well, I made the ~"best ever" sausage and mash - well, that is to say, I didn't make the sausage, - I just used a top class butcher one. The sauce is a hell of a lot of work (smoked backfat, sausage trimmings used to make a smoked stock, add confit of onion, pressure cook for 45 minutes, reduce, add more onions, reduce, eat) but, along with the mash, heavenly.

Much like my treacle tart I made last week, lots of work, but yes, it was the nicest bangers und mash I've tasted. Next time, I might try making my sausage by hand to see if it's worth doing.

Yet again, pretty damn fantastic.

[Tim Hayward]

I'm trying to decide whether you are ...

a) working for him or

b) stalking him

Please, in a spirit of disclosure, let us know either way.

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c) neither.

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In that case, let's address your assertion that he's 'the best' (in the world or outside of London) and your characterisation of those involved in this discussion as...

...lots of amateurs having a dig.

.

I'm an amateur when it comes to food and cooking, as are many of the posters on this board. But there are are professional cooks, academics, foodwriters, critics and even people who qualify as 'full-time consumers' of top level restaurants, all involved in debates like this. I'll leave them to 'decloak' if they feel your comment needs a response.

Actually, my 'professional' background is TV, PR and Marketing - 'spin' if you like. I wouldn't dream of commenting on HB's food beyond my capacity as an informed punter, but I do think I can add something when talking about how he presents himself publicly, his business model and the actions of his PR and TV production companies. John W's sage comment upthread that ...

...Blumenthal would perhaps be happier (and better) in a time and place that did not demand a mixture of two parts food to three parts hype

...is sadly, bang on the button. You and I would probably agree that it's sad that a Spin Doctor's comments are as relevant to a chef's career as a food expert - it doesn't make it any less true.

Now, about this 'best' business.

You can happily state that Michael Schumacher is the 'best' formula 1 driver. You can see the races he's won, you can compare the number of races he's won over the years to other drivers and, though experts may argue about elements of his performance, you could be reasonably sure of getting agreement.

If you say that Paul Gascoine is the best footballer... scratch that, I know nothing about football... that Michaelangelo is the best painter, you're entirely expressing a matter of opinion.

If Michaelangelo is the most popularly enjoyed painter, it's not because I say so, or you say so - it's because the majority of amateurs have said so over time.

When you have used the expression 'Best in the World' in your posts, you are expressing someone's opinion - some body, jury, or more probably some restaurant magazine or rating organisation.

If you averred, on a public board, that somebody else had said that Michaelangelo was the best (sic) in the world it would be logical for other amateurs to discuss who had said this, why they had said this, what their motives were and whether we agreed.

Which, we're doing.

As it is, it's not art, it not even something as evanescent as professional football, it's arguable that it's even about food... what we're mainly talking about is the restaurant business, celebrity and hype.

If anyone is prepared to have an informed public debate about that, they deserve a fucking knighthood - and if there is no objective best in art, there sure as Hell isn't in hash slinging.

Edited November 19, 2006 by Tim Hayward (log)

[Zoticus]

I do think I can add something when talking about how he presents himself publicly, his business model and the actions of his PR and TV production companies.

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Are you saying that he's not the best then? Or are you saying that his PR is the best but his food isn't, or what?

I don't understand why you're so against PR anyway, surely the mass of attention that Heston gets is only because he's proportionally so much better than anyone else. and not because of press releases etc?

[Tim Hayward]

I do think I can add something when talking about how he presents himself publicly, his business model and the actions of his PR and TV production companies.

←

Are you saying that he's not the best then? Or are you saying that his PR is the best but his food isn't, or what?

I don't understand why you're so against PR anyway, surely the mass of attention that Heston gets is only because he's proportionally so much better than anyone else. and not because of press releases etc?

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I think it's debatable.

[Scott]

If Veyrat & Adria can change their menu's so can this guy, or give up the pretense of walking with the kings.   :wonk:

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Perhaps you've got this the wrong way around. Where would Veyrat, Adria and Gagnaire be without treading the trail blazed by goodly Heston of the gleaming probe (thermometer)?

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perhaps Heston doesn't need a mindless shill, and might find it a tad embarassing?

dunno, what do you think?

[Scott]

I don't think defending Heston is acting like a 'prat'. All I see here is lots of amateurs having a dig.

perhaps you'd care to lay out your credentials?

hmmm?

[Jon Tseng]

Perhaps you've got this the wrong way around. Where would Veyrat, Adria and Gagnaire be without treading the trail blazed by goodly Heston of the gleaming probe (thermometer)?

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According to Wylie Dufresne, Marc Veyrat was cooking chicken sous-vide in November 1997.

I think Heston was still serving upmarket steak and suet-fried chips at that time...

J

[John Whiting]

According to Wylie Dufresne, Marc Veyrat was cooking chicken sous-vide in November 1997.

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We live in an era when not only the PR is mass-produced, but even the food itself. A friend of mine wrote:

I saw the birth of sous vide as a food preparation technique in 1988 in an R&D lab at Nestle in Switzerland. It had not yet been used in restaurants, and was developed as a method of mass production cooking for precooked meats sold in atmosphere controlled packaging in supermarket refigerated cases. The advantages were that the end product was more appealing to consumers than frozen meats, it had a 45 day shelf life in the proper conditions, which was considerably longer than any other pre-cooked, non-frozen meat product, and it had significant cost advantages, making for more profitable pricing. Michel Guerard was consulting chef to Nestle at the time, and he began to use the technioque at Eugenie Les Bains for his "light" cuisine.

It's the story of modern art: transform a mass production technique into a movement! It was an entirely logical step for Guerard, whose object was to produce the most interesting flavors with the fewest calories. When the result is slathered with high-fat sauces and followed by a plate of creamy cheeses, it rather misses the point.

[Kropotkin]

Another commentary on HB's search for perfection here...

Guardian online...

[Zoticus]

The digested read, digested: You'd be better off with Heston motorway services.

I wouldn't like to be in John Crace's shoes at the moment:

[Basildog]

Thats a halo right?

[Tim Hayward]

The digested read, digested: You'd be better off with Heston motorway services.

I wouldn't like to be in John Crace's shoes at the moment:

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D'you, know, Zotty, until you posted this I hadn't realized what a phenomenally sexy brute Mr Blumenthal really is.

The twinkling eyes, the copper tan, the brooding menace, the feeling that, at any moment he could whip you over a vaulting horse and have his way with you, the polished head, like a mighty, brain packed bell-end.

I'm quite flustered

You've entirely changed my opinion of both Heston and you.

Edited November 21, 2006 by Tim Hayward (log)