Pickling questions

[Ducksredux]

Howdy!

Having for now turned my back on my coconut obsession (I got a $2 grater at the Vietnamese grocery which doesn't work very well at all) I've turned my front to pickling.

I tried two pickles from Julie Sahni's books today, a lemon pickle from Classic Indian Cooking and a carrot pickle in mustard oil from her Classic Indian Vegetarian and Grain Cooking.

The lemon pickle calls for 6 lemons to be stuffed with cumin, pepper and salt, stuffed in a jar with the juice of 3 lemons poured on top. It then sits for 7 days before being boiled with sugar and stuff. So I'm not understanding what the lemon juice is for if the lemons aren't even sitting in it. Should they be? Seems like not enough lemon juice if that's the case. Also, is this sanitary or is this a breeding ground for bacteria?

The carrot pickle calls for carrot sticks to be tossed in spices (crushed mustard seeds, red pepper, salt and turmeric), fried in oil and lemon juice and then jarred for several days. I have some carrots poking out the top of the oil... will they be fine or should I either squeeze them down or open it up and throw the poker-outers away? Is any of this sanitary or sane?

Any help much appreciated.

[HungryChris]

Howdy, Duck,

My guess is that you chose jars that were too big. I did some meyer lemons a few months ago and I had to choose a jar that had the lemons well submerged in the juice. They came out quite well and I can't believe the same rules don't apply here.

Cheers,

HC

[anzu]

Never made a lemon pickle that sits for so long before being cooked further. The ones I make it's always about 24 hours after adding spices and salt. Sounds possibly unsafe to me to be leaving it so long. How long have they already been sitting around? If not too long, maybe try proceeding to the next step straight away.

The carrot should definitely be covered in oil. Many recipes in India don't give specific amounts of oil, but simply say 'to cover'. They also say to top up the oil if it's too low (these pickles are usually 'cooked' in the hot Indian sun. If you top up the oil, then compensate for not doing this by heating the oil before adding).

Again, how long has it been sitting around with bits uncovered? If more than a day, I'd pull out the sticking out pieces. If less than a day I'd push them down or add more oil.

[Ducksredux]

Never made a lemon pickle that sits for so long before being cooked further. The ones I make it's always about 24 hours after adding spices and salt. Sounds possibly unsafe to me to be leaving it so long. How long have they already been sitting around? If not too long, maybe try proceeding to the next step straight away.

The carrot should definitely be covered in oil. Many recipes in India don't give specific amounts of oil, but simply say 'to cover'. They also say to top up the oil if it's too low (these pickles are usually 'cooked' in the hot Indian sun. If you top up the oil, then compensate for not doing this by heating the oil before adding).

Again, how long has it been sitting around with bits uncovered? If more than a day, I'd pull out the sticking out  pieces. If less than a day I'd push them down or add more oil.

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It's been about 19 hours so far. The thing with the lemons is even if they were in an incredibly wide jar instead of a tall one they'd only be sitting in the juice, rather than covered by it. Maybe lemons as a rule were much much smaller when she published this book?

[Milagai]

It's been about 19 hours so far.  The thing with the lemons is even if they were in an incredibly wide jar instead of a tall one they'd only be sitting in the juice, rather than covered by it. Maybe lemons as a rule were much much smaller when she published this book?

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If the recipe book was published in India, your thought about

the size of the lemons is correct.

US style lemons (huge and yellow) are not known in India,

Indian style lemons (small, green or yellow and very thin skinned)

are not known in the US or if they are, I don't know the name.

In Hindi they're called "kaagazi nimbu". Not fully analogous to

US limes. Something in between US limes and lemons.

The Indian nimbus are much smaller (less than a golf ball)

Milagai

[anzu]

I bought my copy of her book locally, so it's the German translation. Not sure if the Enghlish version has it, but she specifies it should be 900 grams of lemons.

The fact that she clarifies the weight suggests to me that she has taken into consideration the fact that it's usually limes in India (never actually seen a lemon in India - not sure they exist there) and lemons may be more available elsewhere. But I also don't have lemons in the house, only limes, so am unsure how many lemons this actually amounts to.

None of the Indian lime pickles I've ever made needed the jar to be filled entirely with juice in the first stage. These are not the same as Moroccan type pickles.

Instead, (for climates less hot than India) what you are doing is 'marinating' the fruit first in a certain amount of juice, salt and spices and drawing more of the juice out before proceeding to the next step where they are cooked with oil, boiled, or whatever. However, the pickles I've made in the last few years, when I've been in places cooler than India, usually have this first step for only 24 hours or so. Many also use turmeric, which also inhibits bacterial action. For the pickle you are making, a week seems awfully long to be leaving them, and sounds to me a ripe breeding ground for bacteria and/or mold.

That said, there are also plenty of pickle recipes where the limes are left with spices as in your recipe and are either cooked much later, or are not actually cooked at all. HOWEVER, all of these are intended for the temperatures of India in summer, and require the jar of limes to be left in the sun for a week, ten days, or even longer. So we are not talking about letting the limes simply sit around, but basically 'cooking' the limes in the sun. I've made this type of pickle in India, and the liquid in the pickle truly appears to come to a boil with the temperatures it reaches. Outside of India, I don't feel the temperature is ever hot enough, and I haven't made this type of pickle.

So, do you live in a place where it's extremely hot right now (at the very least 100F) and preferably not too humid? If so, put your jar of lemons in the sunniest place you have and you should be okay. If it's not too hot, you don't have a sunny spot, or it is extremely humid, I would be a bit wary of what might happen to the lemons.

Edited to add more detail.

Edited July 24, 2006 by anzu (log)

[Ducksredux]

Thanks for the replies, they clarify a lot. Thing is she always details which ingredients are available here vs. there and modifies her recipes accordingly. But it seems to me that in the past few years fruits here have become monstrous in size and far less tasty, and this book was written decades ago. The English version says 6 lemons in the juice of 3 more, but I think weighing ingredients isn't an American thing, so your version is probably more accurate. Is that 900 grams total or 600 grams pickled and 300 grams juiced?

Sahni has lived in Brooklyn for at least 30 years, this book has been around for like 20, so surely this isn't intended for New Mexico style hot and dry weather, or for Indian summers. I'm in Philadelphia which has almost the same climate as Brooklyn: when it's very hot it's almost always very humid. But as much as I worship her she's surely not infallible (or always descriptive enough).

So assuming that the bacteria go to town on my pickle in the next few days, would cooking and bringing it to a boil kill off anything that'd kill me off, or should I just chalk this one up to experience?

[SDSeth]

So assuming that the bacteria go to town on my pickle in the next few days, would cooking and bringing it to a boil kill off anything that'd kill me off, or should I just chalk this one up to experience?

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IMO you should never try to reheat in an attempt to kill the bacteria to render the resultant cooked up foods safe. Yes, you will kill the bacteria by heating but you may not succeed in removing the toxins that the bacteria released in the food while they were multiplying in it.

Pickling need not be anaerobic (without air), increasing the salt/sugar content helps and some pickles like veggies with ground mustard seeds have a very short life. As Anzu says turmeric helps inhibit the growth of most bacteria and the sunlight in addition to "cooking" also kills bacteria thru ultraviolet radiation.

What amazes me is the time that pickles can last. I have had pickles as old as 45 years wherein the entire mass of jackfruit and mangoes had turned to a dark mush under 6 inches of greenish mustard oil. It was wonderful with steamed rice. When moving to US in 1989 Mom had packed a lemon/lime (rinds only) pickle sans oil, spices - ajwain,cloves and salt, it is still great, the salt has crystallized out of it and is like "Churan -a digestive" now.

[anzu]

It was 700 grams, not 900 grams. I think my brain has become totally useless since my baby was born.

That's the total weight of lemons, including the ones used for juice. (In case you want to try the pickle again, but with less sitting-around time, or with sunning it more).

I lived in Ohio for 5 years, and never dared make pickles that needed to be sunned since I felt the humidity was too high. Some of my Pakistani neighbours did, though, and as far as I know they never actually suffered from food poisoning.

However, I'd still suggest modifying the recipe to have 12 or 24 hours marinating time, then the cooking step, and then allowing to age for a few months before serving. Just keep a look out for signs of fermentation, such as minute bubbles forming, during those few months.

[Ducksredux]

You lose about 20 IQ points when the baby hasn't been sleeping. Pauses in the middle of sentences can be 5 or 10 seconds to stare off into space. My girl wakes up only once now. I will definitely try this again with smaller lemons and for only 24 hrs, and wait for a sunny and hot day. My daughter needs her daddy to live!

SDSeth, I guess I would never consider cooking spoiled meat to get rid of the bacteria, so your right it makes no sense to do it with lemons.