Japan to foie gras, "konichi-wa!"

[iharrison]

Japan lifts ban on French poultry imports

Bird flu concerns abate, no apparent debate over cruelty ... at least not in Japan.

[Jason Perlow]

Japan lifts ban on French poultry imports

Bird flu concerns abate, no apparent debate over cruelty ... at least not in Japan.

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Given the fact that the Japanese are known to eat writhing, live animals such as live lobster sashimi, I seriously doubt we'll see any PETA campaigns in Japan any time soon.

Maybe they'll start producing Foie Gras natively when the French ban it. Perhaps theres a future gastrotourism industry there waiting to be born.

[Grub]

Bird flu concerns abate, no apparent debate over cruelty ... at least not in Japan.

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Hang on there -- we just had a thread on this topic, which I found to be very educational. Foie gras is not obtained through cruelty: ducks have a natural capacity for eating a monstrous amount of food, and left to their own devices, will eat up to 100-150% of their own body weight in the wild.

That the general public might not grasp this (and thus send foie gras into oblivion through ignorance) I can accept -- but us egulleteers ought to be a little better informed. Foie gras is not cruel.

[iharrison]

Bird flu concerns abate, no apparent debate over cruelty ... at least not in Japan.

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Hang on there -- we just had a thread on this topic, which I found to be very educational. Foie gras is not obtained through cruelty: ducks have a natural capacity for eating a monstrous amount of food, and left to their own devices, will eat up to 100-150% of their own body weight in the wild.

That the general public might not grasp this (and thus send foie gras into oblivion through ignorance) I can accept -- but us egulleteers ought to be a little better informed. Foie gras is not cruel.

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You grossly misinterpreted my post Grub. I never asserted that foie gras is a derivative of cruel methods. As a proud Montrealer and resident of the province of Quebec, and field coordinator for the No Reservations Quebec episode, my stance on foie gras can be easily traced. I simply cannot live without the stuff and I thank God I don't live in Chicago every day.

What I meant was exactly what Jason aptly posted ... the Japanese didn't engage in a cruelty debate. They're far too informed and cultured to bother. Long live the Japanese .

So to sum up .... us eGullet members DO know better. And foie gras is most certainly not cruel.

Sorry if the post was too vague dude.

edited to add: I have friends whose livelihoods directly or indirectly depend on the stuff and I'm intimately familiar with the process by which foie gras is made ... at least in Quebec, where we do it real, real well .

Edited June 21, 2006 by iharrison (log)

[Grub]

What I meant was exactly what Jason aptly posted ... the Japanese didn't engage in a cruelty debate. They're far too informed and cultured to bother.

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My sincere appologies! You're quite correct -- I completely misinterpreted your post.

Good on the Japanese -- and your friends. Lets hope this indignant and ignorant Peta motivated crap never reaches them...

[prasantrin]

Good on the Japanese -- and your friends. Lets hope this indignant and ignorant Peta motivated crap never reaches them...

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The lack of debate in Japan regarding cruelty to animals can be seen as a good thing, but it also definitely has its negative points. If you've ever been to Japan and seen an abandoned dog tied to tree by a road in the middle of nowhere (basically left to die from starvation and/or thirst), you'd know what I mean.

[Hiroyuki]

Good on the Japanese -- and your friends. Lets hope this indignant and ignorant Peta motivated crap never reaches them...

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The lack of debate in Japan regarding cruelty to animals can be seen as a good thing, but it also definitely has its negative points. If you've ever been to Japan and seen an abandoned dog tied to tree by a road in the middle of nowhere (basically left to die from starvation and/or thirst), you'd know what I mean.

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This is going to be quite off topic, but I can't help responding. For the record, I've never seen such a dog althought I've lived in Japan for 45 years.

There are debates about cruelty to animals in Japan too, but I think there are fewer Japanese who are against it than in the United States and other countries.

[Ohba]

I've got to agree with Hiroyuki there. I think that was a largely pointless crack. I don't see an obviously worse level of animal treatment in Japan than in Britain. Not to say that it is or it isn't worse - but your comment could use a little perspective. Like, it's not at all a common sight.

[prasantrin]

I've got to agree with Hiroyuki there. I think that was a largely pointless crack. I don't see an obviously worse level of animal treatment in Japan than in Britain. Not to say that it is or it isn't worse - but your comment could use a little perspective. Like, it's not at all a common sight.

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It is more common than you might think, though perhaps not "common" (although if you read my original post, nowhere did I say it was "common").

I have seen it twice in the last year and a half. And a retired co-worker's dog was abandoned in such a way (and rescued by him). I also spend some time with some Animal Refuge Kansai animals.

Nowhere did I say the maltreatment of animals happened "more" often than anywhere else, but culturally, Japanese (Chinese, Korean, Thai, Filipino, etc.) have different ideas about animals and the way they should be treated. Therefore, it's not at all surprising that Japanese people are not making a fuss about foie gras, or whale meat, or shark's fin whatever, or birds nest whatever.

[Grub]

Norwegians eat whale meat and smack fuzzy little white baby seals on the noggin, but you can't draw any parallels between that, and the way they treat pet animals.

I sincerely believe the reason why the Japanese don't make a fuzz over foie gras is because they are more aware of what it entails, and not because they don't care about cruelty to animals. And conversely, Westerners get their knickers in a twist not because they care more about animal welfare, but because their "knowledge" on the topic has been gleaned from Disney movies.

[Ohba]

double post, see following

Edited June 29, 2006 by Ohba (log)

[Ohba]

It is more common than you might think, though perhaps not "common" (although if you read my original post, nowhere did I say it was "common").

Well if you read mine, you'll notice that I never suggested you did. I mentioned precisely the absence of such a perspective. However, we'll just have to disagree on whether it's a common sight or not, though it's hardly a trivial distinction. May I assume from the way you introduced both points, that your two encounters with abandoned dogs and your work with the animal refuge centre were unconnected?

[MarketStEl]

I sincerely believe the reason why the Japanese don't make a fuzz over foie gras is because they are more aware of what it entails, and not because they don't care about cruelty to animals. And conversely, Westerners get their knickers in a twist not because they care more about animal welfare, but because their "knowledge" on the topic has been gleaned from Disney movies.

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Beat me to the "Bambi" reference.

The funny thing is, a lot of the people who see those Disney movies also watch what Penn professor Alan Kors once described to me as "those everything-in-nature-eats-everything-else-in-nature Discovery Channel documentaries."

Cognitive dissonance rears its ugly head again.

[Ohba]

but culturally, Japanese (Chinese, Korean, Thai, Filipino, etc.) have different ideas about animals and the way they should be treated.

You mean different ideas from, erm, 'us'? Come off it, Tokyo and Bangkok are 2800 miles apart. You can't just throw them together like that. Geographically, that's twice the distance from London to Moscow, and further than London to Cairo. Sorry but if you insist on chucking around sweeping generalizations (in the cause of making a negative cultural comparison), I do feel a duty to offer some kind of challenge to it.

[prasantrin]

but culturally, Japanese (Chinese, Korean, Thai, Filipino, etc.) have different ideas about animals and the way they should be treated.

You mean different ideas from, erm, 'us'?

Except I am more "them" than "us", if you're going to make that kind of distinction. I am part Thai, Chinese and Filipino, and I have spent much of my adult life in Japan. I'm not, as far as I know, ethnically Korean so perhaps I should leave them out of this, but I would say my background gives me some knowledge of the cultures of the ethnicities I mentioned. I might have included some other areas of the world, but I'm less involved with those areas (though from the time I spent in Morocco, I would say they don't give much thought to the idea of "animal cruelty", either).

Come off it, Tokyo and Bangkok are 2800 miles apart. You can't just throw them together like that. Geographically, that's twice the distance from London to Moscow, and further than London to Cairo. Sorry but if you insist on chucking around sweeping generalizations (in the cause of making a negative cultural comparison), I do feel a duty to offer some kind of challenge to it.

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I don't think it is a negative cultural comparison, it's simply a cultural comparison. Fact is, different cultures view treatment of animals differently (though different people within different cultures may also have differing views). I am not making judgment on whether Japanese are crueler to animals than Americans, for example. I was taking issue with the comment that Japanese people are "above" the cruelty debate or that they are better informed that Americans (for example) about the production of foie gras or similar foods. Because they're not. Ask a Japanese person how foie gras is made, and few will be able to tell you. But explain to a Japanese person about the process, and ask if he/she thinks it's cruel, and I think fewer Japanese would give an affirmative reply, particularly older Japanese people.

Just to make it clear, I have never given my opinion on foie gras in this particular thread so please don't lump me with PETA freaks or people whose judgments about animal welfare are based on Disney movies (not that you or anyone else has, but I can see how some might make that judgment). Again, I'm not arguing for or against the production or consumption of foie gras, but I'm arguing against the idea that Japanese people don't argue about such topics because they are "better informed" about or "above" these things. I assert that it's because they just don't care about those particular issues, and that the reason for their lack of care is most likely culturally-based.

May I assume from the way you introduced both points, that your two encounters with abandoned dogs and your work with the animal refuge centre were unconnected?

Entirely unconnected. And I don't work or volunteer with ARK (nor did I say I did), but I spend time with their animals when they do public information campaigns. I hear a lot from the volunteers about the animals and their histories. Such stories can be heard everywhere in the world, but what makes Japanese strays, abused animals, etc. somewhat worse is that very few people care. In Canada and US, stories about animal cruelty often make the news, but in Japan they never do. And it's not because it doesn't exist here, because it most definitely does. Animal protection is just not an issue in Japan at all (SPCA? Humane Society? They don't exist here.), and there are very very few places where one can bring a stray or abused animal for help.

I've said pretty much all I need to say online. If you really feel the need to continue this, please do so via pm.

[Ohba]

No, that's alright. I prefer to believe that these things can be said online, and if not there, then they can be left unsaid.