Dessert Philosophy from "Trad to Avant Garde"

[maggie]

If I can get back to the subject, trad vs avant garde, I wonder why we feel that it has to be one way or the other? My situation is unique in that guests stay for at least 3 days and eat all their meals here. They are a captive audience, to an extent, and I get to play with them. I love incorporating new techniques in old stuff, deconstructing things without letting them know it's been done, borrowing from the savory side. The menu changes every night, and everything is included in the room charge, so no one skips dessert, or pre dessert or mignardises, for that matter. The savory cooks and my team play well with each other, borrowing stuff, copying each other, and we all learn from the monthly guest chefs who come through for cooking schools. We don't consider ourselves as being from any school of thought. We take southern cooking and indigenous ingredients, new techniques, twisted old techniques, and just make our food. Sometimes we get stupid guests who want creme brulee or ice cream sundaes, and we give it to them. We've always got Paco containers of vanilla and chocolate ice cream! And the savory guys always get the NY strip and mashed potato people. But this is a really exciting time to be in this business, with the spotlight on us, and we should be open to all possibilities. I can't be purely experimental, but I sure am happy to learn from all who are. Flavor is the most important end result, no matter how one gets there. I love that there are people like Alex Stupak and Sam Mason, but the world needs Emily Luchetti and Karen Barker, too.

hmmmm...why are the avant garde more men than women and the traditionalists more women than men?

Edited June 9, 2006 by maggie (log)

[tan319]

Curious question, about the man/woman angle.

Maybe it's people getting tired of doing things the same way (more or less) forever, man get exasparated quicker or something, who knows.

Maybe it's a press thing.

I do like all pastry chefs, Luchetti, Barker may not intrigue me as much even though I certainly appreciate her work, as well as Sherry Yards, etc.

Could be the rockstars/sports figure thing too, lol!

FWIW, at the moment I'm helping a friend run the pastry/desserts dept. at a new place here and he's VERY old school, Bo Frieberg 1st edition old school, and sometimes it's a real drag running into that kind of philosophy when you know a newer technique say, involving ice cream will result in a better product.

While we're on that subject, I hold no illusions personally about the clientele there and don't hold anything against the customer ( well, most of the time_) and what they want to eat.

Even wd50 at some point was doing a Horchata creme brulee for people who couldn't come to the dessert party, I don't even think it was on the menu.

If there's anything the last 3 years have taught me is pick your battles wisely ( I hope)

If people want Vanilla or Chocolate, let 'em eat that ice cream 'till they explode.

Ditto Steak & Mashed Potato.

The trad TO avant garde tag was really about relating to what's on a plate, design taste, etc. but it's all good!

If I can get back to the subject, trad vs avant garde, I wonder why we feel that it has to be one way or the other?  My situation is unique in that guests stay for at least 3 days and eat all their meals here.  They are a captive audience, to an extent, and I get to play with them.  I love incorporating new techniques in old stuff, deconstructing things without letting them know it's been done, borrowing from the savory side.  The menu changes every night, and everything is included in the room charge, so no one skips dessert, or pre dessert or mignardises, for that matter.  The savory cooks and my team play well with each other, borrowing stuff, copying each other, and we all learn from the monthly guest chefs who come through for cooking schools.  We don't consider ourselves as being from any school of thought.  We take southern cooking and indigenous ingredients, new techniques, twisted old techniques, and just make our food.  Sometimes we get stupid guests who want creme brulee or ice cream sundaes, and we give it to them.  We've always got Paco containers of vanilla and chocolate ice cream!  And the savory guys always get the NY strip and mashed potato people.  But this is a really exciting time to be in this business, with the spotlight on us, and we should be open to all possibilities.  I can't be purely experimental, but I sure am happy to learn from all who are.  Flavor is the most important end result, no matter how one gets there.  I love that there are people like Alex Stupak and Sam Mason, but the world needs Emily Luchetti and Karen Barker, too.

hmmmm...why are the avant garde more men than women and the traditionalists more women than men?

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[docsconz]

hmmmm...why are the avant garde more men than women and the traditionalists more women than men?

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Is this in fact true? While the best known "avant-garde" pastry chefs may be men, is there in fact a disproportionate number of men creating desserts with this approach and vice versa. While it may turn out to be so, I would be very hesitant in accepting this statement at face value.

[tan319]

Hopefully not running the risk of being made to die a slow, agonizing death like the last time I mixed up women and men in a thread but yes, doc, I think it's disproportionate.

As I said upthread, there may be alot of women doing this kind of cooking under the "press radar" but if you look at the booksites like the euro ones as well as Amazon, etc., of course, the line is kind of drawn.

Having said that, I think the pre eminate woman chefs who are avant-ish or new wave/po mo influenced would be ...

Chika Tillman from Chika licous NYC

Michelle Myers from Sona (?)/Boule LA

Caryn Stabinsky, at Ureena (formerly a wd50 pastry cook) NYC

There was a woman at CRU who could still be there Sam Mason spoke highly of, had staged or worked with him. NYC

That's quite a few, matter of fact!

A lot happens with my brain once the coffee flows!

hmmmm...why are the avant garde more men than women and the traditionalists more women than men?

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Is this in fact true? While the best known "avant-garde" pastry chefs may be men, is there in fact a disproportionate number of men creating desserts with this approach and vice versa. While it may turn out to be so, I would be very hesitant in accepting this statement at face value.

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[akwa]

i think there is a difference between the trends in male and female "well publicized" pastry chefs

that i can try to explain without making any suggestion that there is any difference between men and women

i just think that women were there first, especially in this country, as a disproportionate number of high profile pastry chefs are women (compared to the proportion of high profile chefs/anecdotal evidence only)

i think more young men are entering pastry at a time where the field has been so heavily influenced by someone like albert adria, and as a result are perceived to be more "avant garde" (whatever that means)

i dont know that it makes sense to devolve a conversation about pastry philosophy into a battle of the sexes, but i think a little perspective would suggest that well established personnel are generally less likely to "break the mold," as they have more stake in the establishment.

as a result, in countries without many strong female pastry chefs already well established (like spain, for example) there are a lot of talented young women pushing the envelope. that doesnt mean that they will get credit for it.

similarly, i can assure you that the next generation of "avant garde" pastry chefs will be heavily led by women:

i know of several trained by sam mason, alex stupak, patrice demers, and myself that will be slipping your socks of for years to come.

[alanamoana]

without having done any research on the subject and basing this purely on names i have heard of, i feel like it is true (how's that for qualification?)

other than the husband and wife partners Dominique and Cindy Duby of Canada, whose desserts aren't so much avant garde as just a little different...i'd be hard pressed to find a female chef who is producing desserts on the level of sam mason, alex stupak, albert adria, will goldfarb etc. as a matter of fact, there really aren't very many pastry chefs at all who are making desserts in that style. i think there is someone who posts on eGullet who works at some resort in colorado or something and his wife does the desserts...hers are more on the molecular gastronomy scale, but they aren't in the press the way these other gentlemen are. someone speak up here and set me straight!

edited to add: cross posted with ted and akwa...thanks for putting some names out there

with regard to traditional and avant garde:

i don't really think there is a controversy involved so much as a discussion of the preferences of different pastry chefs for either traditional or avant garde methods in their desserts. and neither choice or a blend thereof has to be inherently wrong or right. it is a personal choice. whatever gels your puree, so to speak.

i mean, when someone first whipped egg whites into a meringue, that was "avant garde" wasn't it?

using glycerine to maintain flexibility in sugar paste preparations was "avant garde" isn't it?

everything comes from somewhere. this isn't to say that everything has been done before, it obviously hasn't...but as some might argue, hydrocolloids and such have been used in industrial food processing for quite some time before they were "discovered" to have uses in restaurant kitchens. but it had to start somewhere.

i said it before...my hat is off to those of you persistent enough to do the experimentation and hard work in making these processes mainstream. it is hard enough to come up with new ideas but even harder to make them an everyday item and expose people to these interesting ideas.

i guess where i stand, on the traditional side of things, comes from the realization that there are so many people making BAD traditional desserts (and i only mean following traditional methods and techniques) that i just want to make them better. sort of like understanding that picasso, as a modern artist, started with a great foundation in the basics of fine art before evolving into cubism...so many "pastry chefs" don't even have a handle on the basics before they try to make the jump into using materials they have no understanding of.

but this is where i hope (as i haven't tried most of the "avant garde" desserts) you all are aiming. you can't make a flexible ganache or a powderized ice cream without understanding the fundamentals of making a traditional ganache or creamy frozen ice cream. you have to understand the chemistry and function of each ingredient fully before you can turn it into a cubist dessert. it is way beyond creative plating. but i know that there are young chefs out there who see what avant garde chefs are doing and just jump ahead with recipes and formulas ferran and others have put into the world and couldn't bake a cake to save their lives.

so again, as there isn't an inherent controversy, there is a need to understand fully what has come before (the traditional) in order to move ahead (the avant garde). therefore one cannot discount either philosophy.

...just make it taste good and look good!!!

Edited June 9, 2006 by alanamoana (log)

[alex stupak]

without having done any research on the subject and basing this purely on names i have heard of, i feel like it is true (how's that for qualification?)

other than the husband and wife partners Dominique and Cindy Duby of Canada, whose desserts aren't so much avant garde as just a little different...i'd be hard pressed to find a female chef who is producing desserts on the level of sam mason, alex stupak, albert adria, will goldfarb etc.  as a matter of fact, there really aren't very many pastry chefs at all who are making desserts in that style.  i think there is someone who posts on eGullet who works at some resort in colorado or something and his wife does the desserts...hers are more on the molecular gastronomy scale, but they aren't in the press the way these other gentlemen are.  someone speak up here and set me straight!

edited to add: cross posted with ted and akwa...thanks for putting some names out there

with regard to traditional and avant garde:

i don't really think there is a controversy involved so much as a discussion of the preferences of different pastry chefs for either traditional or avant garde methods in their desserts.  and neither choice or a blend thereof has to be inherently wrong or right.  it is a personal choice.  whatever gels your puree, so to speak.

i mean, when someone first whipped egg whites into a meringue, that was "avant garde" wasn't it?

using glycerine to maintain flexibility in sugar paste preparations was "avant garde" isn't it?

everything comes from somewhere.  this isn't to say that everything has been done before, it obviously hasn't...but as some might argue, hydrocolloids and such have been used in industrial food processing for quite some time before they were "discovered" to have uses in restaurant kitchens.  but it had to start somewhere.

i said it before...my hat is off to those of you persistent enough to do the experimentation and hard work in making these processes mainstream.  it is hard enough to come up with new ideas but even harder to make them an everyday item and expose people to these interesting ideas.

i guess where i stand, on the traditional side of things, comes from the realization that there are so many people making BAD traditional desserts (and i only mean following traditional methods and techniques) that i just want to make them better.  sort of like understanding that picasso, as a modern artist, started with a great foundation in the basics of fine art before evolving into cubism...so many "pastry chefs" don't even have a handle on the basics before they try to make the jump into using materials they have no understanding of.

but this is where i hope (as i haven't tried most of the "avant garde" desserts) you all are aiming.  you can't make a flexible ganache or a powderized ice cream without understanding the fundamentals of making a traditional ganache or creamy frozen ice cream.  you have to understand the chemistry and function of each ingredient fully before you can turn it into a cubist dessert.  it is way beyond creative plating.  but i know that there are young chefs out there who see what avant garde chefs are doing and just jump ahead with recipes and formulas ferran and others have put into the world and couldn't bake a cake to save their lives.

so again, as there isn't an inherent controversy, there is a need to understand fully what has come before (the traditional) in order to move ahead (the avant garde).  therefore one cannot discount either philosophy.

...just make it taste good and look good!!!

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i couldnt agree more with everthing youve just said......

[alanamoana]

thanks alex. i only wish i was still living in new york so i could see what you're up to! the concentration of great chefs and pastry chefs in new york city is so unfair to those of us geographically challenged. although i didn't participate as much as i should have while living there for the past four years...and now i'm gone. but that's my own fault.

good luck in your new digs and i hope being surrounded by all those guys (and i do mean guys...hehehe) gets your creative juices flowing even heavier!

[docsconz]

without having done any research on the subject and basing this purely on names i have heard of, i feel like it is true (how's that for qualification?)

other than the husband and wife partners Dominique and Cindy Duby of Canada, whose desserts aren't so much avant garde as just a little different...i'd be hard pressed to find a female chef who is producing desserts on the level of sam mason, alex stupak, albert adria, will goldfarb etc.  as a matter of fact, there really aren't very many pastry chefs at all who are making desserts in that style.  i think there is someone who posts on eGullet who works at some resort in colorado or something and his wife does the desserts...hers are more on the molecular gastronomy scale, but they aren't in the press the way these other gentlemen are.  someone speak up here and set me straight!

Aki Kamozawa is her name. She and her husband, H. Alexander Talbot currently work at Keyah grande in southwest Colorado, although they have recently said in their blog, Ideas in Food that they are planning on uprooting and moving back east. I look forward to having a better opportunity to sample their cooking.

Not to belabor the point, but I still question the validity of the statement about a disproportionate number of men in the "avant-garde" pastry kitchen. That there may not be any women creating along those lines that are as well known as the men previously mentioned, doesn't mean they aren't in the kitchen working in that vein. While Chefs Adria, Balaguer Mason, Stupack, Goldfarb and Demers are all quite deserving of their accolades (and I have had the excellent fortune to have sampled each of their work), it doesn't mean that there aren't women who may also be deserving of them but are as yet underpublicized or under-recognized for whatever reasons. Then again, the assertion may in fact be true

Where does someone like Gale Gand fit into this equation?

[tan319]

Well for one, Gale doesn't publicize her more "out there" leanings a bunch ( that I'm aware of) as she has written books and done TV that has and have been a bit more traditional.

But Steve Klc, for one, has spoken at least a couple of times about Gand being in front of all of this, she was pacotizing long ago, plugged into the Spanish thing, just kept it on the down low.

RE: The 'Avant Garde" part of the thread title: I probably don't have the clearest thinking at 5:30 in the morning, especially when I'm in the middle of a controversy.

But I'm regretting the title a bit as, once again, I was thinking of how Alineas presentations generally look ( to me, vaguely scientific, cool as hell but more out there) as opposed to the work out of wd50 dessert-wise.

Alex's much made about by me chocolate squiggle could be termed a bit Avant, I think.

I did forget to mention, as akwa astutely points out, the the women to men ratio will probably be evening out VERY soon with the people in their various kitchens striking out on their own.

I can't wait!

[alanamoana]

i feel like yard, gand, et al. fit into the "traditional" mold. it isn't that they aren't exploring new flavor combinations, etc. but i don't think they're pushing too hard to put new techniques into regular use on their menus. but again...i'm shooting from the hip here. i'm basing this on their books more than any real experience with their product.

i understand what you're saying doc, but if they are laboring in the same vein and they aren't getting the same publicity...then are they laboring in vain?! hehehe...i think ted listed some female names that i haven't heard mentioned before. but i feel that chika tilman is more traditional as well. it may come down to the next generation who have had a chance to work for the likes of mason, goldfarb, stupak and adria...before we see female pastry chefs following the lead of their mentors.

and yes, i'm belaboring the point, but i am a female pastry chef who attempts to keep abreast (hehehe) of the news and goings on in the pastry world...there just aren't any names that pop into my head. but i'm beginning to lose interest in the whole pr machine anyway. see what happens after leaving the biz for a year?!

[docsconz]

i understand what you're saying doc, but if they are laboring in the same vein and they aren't getting the same publicity...then are they laboring in vain?!

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This is a very different question and point than what I was addressing, though no less interesting a question.

[tan319]

i understand what you're saying doc, but if they are laboring in the same vein and they aren't getting the same publicity...then are they laboring in vain?!  hehehe...i think ted listed some female names that i haven't heard mentioned before. but i feel that chika tilman is more traditional as well.  it may come down to the next generation who have had a chance to work for the likes of mason, goldfarb, stupak and adria...before we see female pastry chefs following the lead of their mentors.

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I think Chikas stuff at least lookswise reminds me of people like Balaguer, her menus read like that.

If they are out there and not getting a lot of PR, it IS because they don't have a publicist, the value of that was reigned on me many years ago now by a wise "young" sage..

[akwa]

im sure we are far off topic

but perhaps this is a good chance for a redirect

for me personally the terms traditional and avant garde are pretty useless,

but i used a scale of five levels of creativity to distinguish between people operating in different arenas

wg

[tan319]

OT for sure

What are the 5 scales or levels of creativity, akwa?

[akwa]

ingredient

technique

philosophy

love

solitude

[Matthew Petersen]

ingredient

technique

philosophy

love

solitude

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well put.

especially love.

[maggie]

It has always bothered me that the star-making machinery in our business pushes the men forward when, yes, it does seem that there are more women actually working in the business than men. Every year but last, there are nine men and one woman in the PA&D's ten best. Last year, there were three women. I don't for a second believe that ten percent of all pastry chefs in the US are women. I know it's more. And Food & Wine does the same: nine men, one woman. Can that really be the proportion in the savory side as well? I wonder.

So, is it the press, pushing forward the men who push the envelope? Is it us, the women in the business, playing it safe? I know I play it safer than I could. I use sous vide, but I don't write it on the menu. I make foams and use lecithin and love my Paco Jet, but the guests don't know how the desserts get to them, just that they end up in front of them. And I must confess that half the posts Sethro writes, I have NO idea what he's talking about! And I want to, but when I get to work, I get bogged down in the work of the day, with not too much time to play.

Could it be more likely that the men put themselves forward to the press than the women? Could it be that men see the competitive sport of pastry an integral part of the business, where women might not as much? I try occasionally to put myself forward, to get the hotel's marketing person to get my stuff out there, but I don't try very hard, and maybe I should. Maybe we all should. Maybe this should be another thread...

[tan319]

Are There More Men (Pastry) Chefs then Women?

Here's the thread...

[alex stupak]

so what else is going on?......who is working on something new and exciting? lets talk about something else.....anyone having fun with enzyme technology?....anyone getting anywhere with all the various polysaccharides we have now......has anyone used lacitol yet.....? i know of only 2 other restaurants that have it and im curious about what people think...is it ok to use?...i think so but some people draw the line in different spots....is it okay to use food grade parrafin?...i do occasionally....i mean its what wax lips are made of....and i had those when i was a kid but it is a petroleum based substance after all so it creates mixed emotions.....

[xdrixn]

I've used lacitol and am hesitant to keep using it for the same reasons I'm hesitant to use sorbitol in large amounts; the "intestinal distress" I keep reading about. For plastisizing I've recently ordered a sample of citroflex a-2 & a-4 from Morflex which I anxiously await. Envision was fun for a while until my sample ran out.

Edited June 18, 2006 by xdrixn (log)

[tan319]

Have either of you encountered problems with Sorbitol in recipes?

It always makes me squeamish too...

I'm very sensitive to milk based sweeteners so lacitol sounds like a "I'll pass on it" for me anyways.

[chiantiglace]

Alex dont use food grade parrafin, just use carnauba wax. Anything that sounds related to kerosene will freak me out.

speaking of strange ingredients, has anyone used stearic acid in food?

[MelissaH]

Alex dont use food grade parrafin, just use carnauba wax.  Anything that sounds related to kerosene will freak me out.

speaking of strange ingredients, has anyone used stearic acid in food?

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If you've eaten beef fat, you've ingested stearic acid.

MelissaH

[chiantiglace]

well, I kind of meant in a more experimental fashion.

Thats kind of like saying you've eaten transglutiminase before.