Chinatown Brasserie

[rich]

As for Vegas, I think you're being deliberately obtuse.

I find it more than possible, indeed probable, that there are more wealthy Chinese (as opposed to Chinese Americans) in Vegas on any given day than in NY...no one said anything about them living there (besides you).

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My point exactly. They don't live there. But yet according to her statement that's where the best Chinese restaurants in the country are located.

Let me try this from a different angle.

She says there aren't any good Chinese restaurants in NYC because Chinese restaurants follow the money and the money is not in NYC. She then states that the best Chinese restaurants in the country are in Vegas. Ergo, that's where the Chinese money is located (by her own theory - not mine).

The Chinese don't live there, so what are they doing there? Gambling - duh.

She singles out Vegas as having the best Chinese restaurants. She doesn't say it has the best Italian, French, Spanish, Icelandic, Finnish, German, Thai, Austrian, American, etc or any other type of the best restaurants, just Chinese.

So let's deduce what she's really saying. Good Chinese restaurants open where there's Chinese money. The best Chinese restaurants are in Vegas. Therefore, Chinese money must be in Vegas more so than any other place in the country because they have the best restaurants.

Conclusion: Chinese money exists in Vegas because the Chinese (not the French, Spanish etc) go there in large numbers to gamble (since they don't live there). Unless you think it's Lake Mead that attracts them.

If that's not stereotyping, please explain to me what is.

And please don't say she never used the word gamble. We all know that's what people go to Vegas to do.

Edited August 31, 2006 by rich (log)

[Sneakeater]

But rich, in this context, why should she have talked about Italian, French, Spanish, Icelandic, Finnish, German, Thai, Austrian, American, or other types of restaurants? Are you denying that there a lot of wealthy Chinese people in Las Vegas and that there are restaurants there that cater to them? (I don't know myself; but if Reichl says so, I certainly have no factual basis for disagreeing.)

[rich]

But rich, in this context, why should she have talked about Italian, French, Spanish, Icelandic, Finnish, German, Thai, Austrian, American, or other types of restaurants?  Are you denying that there a lot of wealthy Chinese people in Las Vegas and that there are restaurants there that cater to them?  (I don't know myself; but if Reichl says so, I certainly have no factual basis for disagreeing.)

←

No SE, I don't know how many wealthy Chinese live in Vegas, but I can guarantee it's much less than live in the other three places we've been discussing. And I am sure wealthy people of all nationalities visit Vegas.

Her comment is unfortunate because it gives credence to the stereotype.

I only mentioned the other types as a reference. Those nationalities are not linked with heavy gambling - unfortunately the Chinese live with that stereotype hanging over their heads.

Since I'm Italian, I'll use this example. I would be offended if a reporter of national prominance suggested she only eats in Italian restaurants when seated facing the door. Now she hasn't said anything wrong, per se, but everyone knows the meaning behind the comment.

And that's what I'm saying here. Her reference to the Chinese and Vegas is offensive because it validates a stereotype.

[Sneakeater]

You said "live" again.

If they ARE there, it's not perpetuating a stereotype to say so. If I point out that there are a lot of Jewish restaurants in the Diamond District cuz there are a lot of Jews who work there, am I perpetuating a stereotype or stating an indisputable fact? You're the one who's drawing conclusions from the facts Reichl stated.

Edited August 31, 2006 by Sneakeater (log)

[Nathan]

I don't even understand this.

The context of her comments was on Chinese restaurants.

(and it's not like Vegas is lacking in high-end French food btw)

once again, if on any given day Vegas has the greatest density of expat Chinese wealth, then it would make perfect sense for it to have the best Chinese restaurants.

and if that is true, yes, I'm sure they are there for the gambling and partying.

there, I said it. call me a racist.

btw, on any given day Vegas may have the wealthiest expats of many a nationality, not just Chinese. and yes, they're all there for the gambling and partying.

oh for Pete's sake: the craziest thing here is that most people would be oblivious to the supposed stereotype that Rich is talking about. I daresay that 95% of Americans have no clue that there is any sort of Asian gambling stereotype. you either have to have traveled widely in Asia or know people who have been to Macao or watched a bunch of old movies with mah jong tables...etc.

spare me.

(P.S. a stereotype is simply a statistical generalization. some are false, some are true, some are partially true)

edited: to add the words "and partying" for clarification

Edited August 31, 2006 by Nathan (log)

[donbert]

And please don't say she never used the word gamble. We all know that's what people go to Vegas to do.

Plenty of people go to Las Vegas just to party. While I can't speak specifically for wealthy Chinese expats I know lots of people of all income brackets and races that go for an easy weekend getaway from SF and LA with no intention of gambling.

oh for Pete's sake: the craziest thing here is that most people would be oblivious to the supposed stereotype that Rich is talking about.  I daresay that 95% of Americans have no clue that there is any sort of Asian gambling stereotype.  you either have to have traveled widely in Asia or know people who have been to Macao or watched a bunch of old movies with mah jong tables...etc.

Word. As a widely traveled Asian who also watches a lot of old movies I didn't know this was a a stereotype at all. I thought we were all just good at math and know how to play the piano.

But we're really straying far off topic here. Does anyone know if Reichl has been to Chinatown Brasserie and what she thinks of it?

[Nathan]

maybe there's a generation gap here?

I daresay that no one in my age group is aware of any "Asian gambling" stereotype.

(I'm vaguely familiar with the belief that gambling is popular in some Asian cultures -- maybe it's true?)

[rich]

I think this has gone too far.

Maybe I'm more sensitive to this type of stuff because I worked in the media for so long and had to be very careful when writing - her comment would have been deleted.

If no one understands or knows of the betting stereotype and how it relates to the Chinese than so be it.

I'll sign off from this topic - it's not worth the fight.

[ahr]

Is there some manner of dim-sum tasting available, or must one assemble a large party in order to sample widely in a single visit?

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To answer my own question and bring the thread back on topic: No, there isn't, but it makes small matter for parties numbering more than one. A leisurely mid-afternoon dum-sum lunch for two was most enjoyable, with very good food and service. Nice touches: the different dipping sauces served with different types of dumpling; the cast-iron tea pots; our being seated in a comfortable semicircular booth that would normally seat six. $63 for two, with tax but prior to tip, for seven small plates and tea. I might have ordered one or two more, but was overruled by a stuffed tablemate.

[gingersweetiepie]

edit! i just realized i shared too much information.

but on the topic of dim sum, i'll skip CB for frozen gyoza at m2m any day. for now, CB is waaaaay too sceney. and anyway, my heart breaks for brunches past at time cafe.

Edited September 2, 2006 by gingersweetiepie (log)

[docsconz]

I had dim sum brunch sitting outside on a beautiful, sunny, crisp, perfect fall day yesterday.

The only dim sum that I have ever had that could compare to this in terms of artistry was at Lai Wah Heen in Toronto. These are not run of the mill dumplings and such. They are beautifully presented, delicate and expertly crafted morsels of food. Our party had a variety of dim sum including the 4 Mushroom dumplings with sweet corn, Roast duck and shrimp dumplings, Rice Noodle Rolls with Pea-Nut Sesame Sauce, Steamed Lobster Dumplings, Malaysian Eggplant with Shrimp, Crispy Taro Root Shrimp, Crabmeat and Pork Soup Dumplings and Crispy Sesame Puffs for dessert. My favorite was the soup dumplings. The skin was thin, delicate and light and the filling was very flavorful. The taro root was crisp and not in the least greasy. The most disappointing to me was the steamed lobster dumplings as I did not get much lobster flavor from them. While they were still good, I do not feel that they were worth their premium price relative to the other menu items.

I would return.

[ned]

The most disappointing to me was the steamed lobster dumplings as I did not get much lobster flavor from them. While they were still good, I do not feel that they were worth their premium price relative to the other menu items.

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I've had those lobster treats and I like them but not for eighteen dollars. Much better to go for the fish skin, shrimp with pea tips or others for six or eight dollars. Just as much bang for far less buck.

. . . for now, CB is waaaaay too sceney.

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The relative sceniness depends on when you go. We've been frequent fliers there during our two year old's naptime and as parents, we are never alone. Always kids in there on the weekend running around and harassing the koi downstairs.

Edited October 10, 2006 by ned (log)

[johnjohn]

Is this the type of place you would go on a Sunday late morning or early afternoon for dim sum or is this more of a night time kinda place. I just want good dim sum this Sunday - should we go here or just head down to Chinatown and save this place for some weeknight for a light dim sum dinner and drinks?

[docsconz]

Is this the type of place you would go on a Sunday late morning or early afternoon for dim sum or is this more of a night time kinda place.  I just want good dim sum this Sunday - should we go here or just head down to Chinatown and save this place for some weeknight for a light dim sum dinner and drinks?

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I went on a Sunday. If you want good dim sum this has good dim sum. It is not cheap, but it is unique. It is not "everyday" dim sum -more like "special occassion" dim sum.

[Pan]

I was at a party at Chinatown Brasserie tonight and had most of six orders of dim sum and, later, two cocktails, and I'm here to tell you that Chinatown Brasserie is all that! Best dim sum I've had outside of Asia, I believe, and certainly the best in New York. I spent a lot of money ($96 including tip), but though I certainly can't do this every day, I think that given how good the food and drinks were, it was worth it. Now, to get more flute students in order to earn back that money...

(I'll post more details later.)

[Pan]

Here's what I had last night:

Steamed:

Roast Duck & Shrimp Dumplings (the BEST thing I had that night!)

Shrimp & Snow Pea Leaf Dumplings (possibly the best version I've had of these)

Roast Duck Dumplings (someone else's order mistakenly given to me, and therefore, apparently without charge [my credit card bill was not itemized, which bugged me slightly -- I was able to figure out that the calculations added up but had to ask the waitress to give me the pre-tax amount!] -- I shared this with a friend)

Pan Fried:

Curried Chicken Dumplings (delicious; included kaffir lime leaves)

Shrimp & Chinese Chive Dumplings ([i shared this order with a friend as well] very delicate, and at the same time much more flavorful than the usual renditions (seemed to have raw chives inside, somehow); four small dumplings with skins of just the right thickness instead of the thick skins you may have had elsewhere)

Specialties (so listed on their menu):

Crispy Taro Root Shrimp (again, much better than average)

All the dumplings were delicious, and the only possible criticisms I could make are:

(1) There was just a bit of cartilage and bone in the roast duck dumplings (but they were lovely, and free);

(2) I would have preferred a somewhat firmer texture in the curried chicken dumplings -- but what a taste!

I had chrysanthemum tea with the meal. Afterwards, I had two cocktails. I don't remember the name of the first one, but it was made with Bourbon, Champagne, and lots of fresh lime juice; and the second was a Bellini Martini which had such a genuine peach taste, I could taste the dark red part near the pit, and it was very peachy without being sugary-tasting.

The dim sum items ranged from $8-12 for orders of four dumplings (approximately four times as much as you'd pay in inexpensive dim sum eating halls), and the cocktails were $12 apiece. So if money is an object, the tab can get really outrageous REALLY easily! But the quality is really outstanding, and the delectation you can get from that enjoyment is surely worth a considerable price.

I look forward to the next time I go, which may be a year or more from now, unless someone treats me...

[Luckylies]

Even though I swore NEVER to go back-after a plastic in a dumpling episode, that was handled badly by a manager, yet... I can't help it. I'm hooked. I really enjoy the frozen mai tai's, as well as the shrimp w/ rice noodles. Yesterday we had the crispy chicken with 5 dipping sauces. I was really, really good. it was half a fried chicken hacked in the chinese style and served with a scallion, ginger, hoisin, 5 spice? and garlic sauce. It was perfectly crisp, really juicy and covered in fried garlic crumbles. It was served with pickled green beans which were rather yucky and out of place (they were also unwelcome on my shrimp plate) It was a $19 fried half-chicken though. For something so crazy expensive I want it to be this good if not better. We also had the ribs which were not much to write home about, they were just fine.

I like to go to CB on saturday or sunday mornings, they're usually empty at 11ish and beginng to fill tables later in the day. The management is usually kind but bumbling, and the ambience non-existant at the hours that I go. There were some children and babies drooling about at 1ish yesterday, and I made a note to myself that this is likely going to become the next stroller convention restaurant (like Otto)...ick.

I also hate that the tea is 6 dollars a pot, that's really bullshit. They should offer a less premium tea for less or free.

Edited November 5, 2006 by Luckylies (log)

[Sneakeater]

You can't argue with those dim sum. I just can't stop going and eating them.

[Stone]

As uninspired as you'd expect. Dark interior (looks nothing at all like the old Time Cafe), trendy customers, etc.

The menu is surprisingly boring. There are some interesting dim sum, but most of the entrees are basic American Chinese food dishes, perhaps with a little twist.

The $7 egg roll was overpriced. Two decent sized egg rolls, not all that flavorful. Shrimp and chive potstickers were small, but good. Same for the pork dumplings. Four dipping sauces all lacked flavor.

We ordered sliced flat iron steak with onion and peppers. Looked like flank steak to me. In fact, I'm sure that if I ordered beef with pepper and onion from any Chinese restaurant, it would be the same dish, but cheaper.

The only real low point was the dry sauteed string beans with pork. They had so much salt/soy, they were almost unedible.

Shrimp fried rice was pretty good. A tad dry, but a lot of shrimp.

Overall, the food here was as good as, but no better than almost every Chinese delivery place in Manhattan. There didn't seem to be anything particularly interesting on the menu. And Grand Sichuan is a few blocks away.

[Sneakeater]

This is extremely interesting whether or not it's true:

http://nymag.com/daily/food/2006/12/benson...inatown_br.html

Anyone who had Joe Ng's dim sum at World Tong knows he's holding back at Chinatown Brasserie -- even if he has vastly better ingredients and equipment there. The combination of a lot of resources and an audience that appreciates the full range of his talent and vision could produce something truly awe-inspiring (not to mention worth travelling to Bensonhurst for).

In any event, even if this rumor turns out not to be true, the background to it sheds an interesting light on the discussion we had of "haute" Chinese restaurants and the kind of clientele they would have to appeal to. This could be the start of what many of us (OK, larrylee and I) have been waiting for.

Edited December 7, 2006 by Sneakeater (log)

[Pan]

I'd love to trek out to anywhere where he might make really good chicken feet with high-quality chicken with no cod liver oil taste.

[raji]

Overall, the food here was as good as, but no better than almost every Chinese delivery place in Manhattan.

That's pretty harsh! I haven't seen such a disparity of reviews recently...

[Sneakeater]

Almost everybody agrees that the dumplings are great.

As for the rest, well I guess that some have drunk the Koolade, and some haven't . . .

[raji]

Great as in Joe's Shangai's and willing to travel from uptown to downtown over....?

[Sneakeater]

Joe's Shanghai is just soup dumplings. This is a range (albeit nothing near a full range) of Cantonese-style dim sum. Prepared better than any you've ever had in New York, by some ways.

Edited December 9, 2006 by Sneakeater (log)