Adventures with sodium alginate

[ermintrude]

To get the taste could try a red whine reduction for the outer layer and use Gellan as that has better flavor release.

If you had access to some liquid nitrogen and could freeze the wine you could do a divided speriphication something like this

http://forums.egullet.org/index.php?showtopic=116055&hl=

[Darth Sushi]

What about creating the blush spheres first and then immersing them in the second alginate solution of the white wine. Could you create a sphere inside of a sphere that way?

[Tri2Cook]

That's pretty much what I was saying. I mentioned freezing just to make it easier to keep the first sphere in the second sphere but you could definitely try it without freezing. Doing alginate spheres means you won't have the luxury of doing them ahead which means you'd be trying to encapsulate the red and immediately encapsulate that in the white. Unless it's for one or two plates, that sounds like a lot going on. I think I'd try the "reverse" spheres (calcium-fortified base in alginate bath) or using another hydrocolloid as the gelling agent (pectin, gellan, carrageenan). Then you could do them ahead and store them in a container of the white wine. I'd definitely do a test run though, just to be sure how much of an issue synerisis is going to be and, if it is an issue, in what timeframe. If the red bleeds into the white too quickly you'd just be doing a lot of work for nothing.

[Darth Sushi]

So about an hour after I should have been rolling sushi, I was still struggling trying to get my gels to actually hold together. I am still not entirely certain what went wrong, but I ended up resorting to a simple agar gel. I still got my flavor, and the texture was still different enough that it accomplished what I needed it to. I am not done with this by far.

[Harky]

I know it was posted a while ago, but does anyone know how to finish the process of carbonating the spheres (as in the mojitos ChefT posted about, or chickenfriedgourmet's vodka cranberry spheres)? You're supposed to add the spheres and some liquid to an ISI container and charge the container. But then what? If you release the gas by spritzing out the liquid won't that destroy the spheres?

Also, Tri2Cook, that's immediately what I though of too when I first learned about the process. I think it'd be worth it to try. There must be some way to get a sphere within a sphere.

[lesliec]

The recipe for carbonated mojito spheres listed in the Khymos recipe collection doesn't mention any special technique to finish; the procedure seems to be that you simply load the spheres into the whipper, charge it (with CO₂, NOT nitrous!), wait several hours then 'un-charge' it.

Ah - on re-reading your question, I think I see more clearly what you're saying. No, don't blast the spheres out the nozzle, which would definitely upset them. I believe you'll have to release the pressure by wrestling the top off the vessel. Carefully.

I spotted the recipe myself just last weekend and thought I'd have to try it. Probably not with a mojito, though - not keen on tequila.

[Harky]

Thanks again Leslie! Maybe you can depress the valve slowly keeping the container upright and just release the gas. It seems like just unscrewing the top would be dangerous, and I think ISI warns against it.

Let us know how it turns out if you try it.

[lesliec]

Why do I have to go first?

[mkayahara]

Ah - on re-reading your question, I think I see more clearly what you're saying. No, don't blast the spheres out the nozzle, which would definitely upset them. I believe you'll have to release the pressure by wrestling the top off the vessel. Carefully.

No, no, no, no, no. This would be dangerous. Discharge the canister by holding it upright (if we're talking a whipped cream canister) and squeezing the trigger to release the pressure. Then unscrew the top and remove the spheres. By keeping the container upright, you'll prevent the spheres from being blasted out the nozzle.

I'm not sure about the mechanics of a soda siphon, so I'm not sure how you could do it with one of those.

[Tri2Cook]

Just bleed off the pressure through the nozzle with the container upright. It won't try to shoot the spheres out.

[Harky]

Why do I have to go first?

Ha! Well if I get time this week, I'll try it and post the results here.

Thanks, Mkayahara. The trick then is using the Whipped Cream Canister and keeping it upright. The Soda Siphon has a hose that reaches to the bottom, which means it still dispenses its contents when upright.

[Hito]

I just ordered a set of chemicals from Willpowder. I'm going to try the included recipes to get a feel for the process, but I'm wondering if anyone has had any luck trying to make spheres of stocks? I'm going to try my hand at making spheres of pho broth, but I'm worried about the pH and calcium levels in it and, being new to the process, wouldn't really be sure where to begin fixing it if/when a problem arises. I'll post here again after I've tried it, but in the meantime, if anyone has any previous experience with a stock or broth, do you have any pointers?

[mkayahara]

I just ordered a set of chemicals from Willpowder. I'm going to try the included recipes to get a feel for the process, but I'm wondering if anyone has had any luck trying to make spheres of stocks? I'm going to try my hand at making spheres of pho broth, but I'm worried about the pH and calcium levels in it and, being new to the process, wouldn't really be sure where to begin fixing it if/when a problem arises. I'll post here again after I've tried it, but in the meantime, if anyone has any previous experience with a stock or broth, do you have any pointers?

I don't have specific experience with making spheres from stock, but I don't think pH should be a problem, since it tends to be low pH that inhibits the process, and stock shouldn't be acidic. As for the calcium levels, I think the "reverse" spherification process (i.e., calcium in the base and alginate in the bath) has become more common than the original now, since it offers a host of benefits. So my advice would be to go with that approach; then, you won't need to worry about how much calcium is in the broth.

[David A. Goldfarb]

I'd guess that stock should have a fair amount of calcium, being made from bones, which would make it a good candidate for reverse spherification.

[Hito]

Alright, after some experimenting, I have yet to experience any success making spheres of pho. I tried the reverse spherification method with an alginate bath and no other chemicals added to the broth which did nothing. I tried adding calcium lactate gluconate into the broth and it looked like it was going to work, but when I tried removing it from the alginate bath, it broke and I wound up with a snot-like gel and the rest of the liquid floating around in the alginate. I also tried adding calcium chlorite to the pho and these seemed to give me the best results--the liquid remained in one place once it was dropped in the bath and was spherical while submerged, but I again ran in to the problem of not being able to remove it. The "skin" slipped off the rest of the liquid causing the liquid to again spread through the alginate bath.

I haven't yet tried the process with normal spherification. One potential problem with my efforts so far is that my pho wasn't particularly thick. I noticed when I did a mango sphere that the liquid I was using was slightly runnier than uncooked egg whites and I had great success with the resulting spheres. Should I try thickening the pho more?

[Tri2Cook]

You could hit your broth with a touch of xanthan or ultratex to give it a little more body. You could also try freezing it in ice cube trays or something then dropping them frozen. How long are you leaving them in the bath before you try to pull them? If the surface is gelling but they fall apart when you try to remove them they may just need to gel a little longer or be handled more delicately.

Also, just out of curiosity, did you taste the broth with the calcium chloride? I'm just asking because that can be some nasty, bitter tasting stuff and not really worth the tradeoff just to get the spheres to work if the taste comes forward. Personally, I'd do regular alginate spheres or, if that's not a good option due to needing hold time, just do without them altogether before I'd serve them with calcium chloride in them... but that's just me.

[Hito]

I did taste it each time and didn't get any sort of additional flavor. I was leaving them in for various amounts of time, from thirty seconds to five minutes. It was almost like the gel never completely formed around the liquid. But, I just got done trying it with the normal method and had considerably more success, probably because the alginate thickened the broth when I dissolved it. I still had trouble getting good spheres out of it, but now I think it's because I need to play around with amounts and time held in the bath.

If you're curious, I'm trying to deconstruct pho to serve on a chinese soup spoon for a wedding. I liked the idea of having the broth as a sphere, but I'm starting to think that may not work and I should do a sphere of something else and present the broth in a different way, or forego the broth entirely and just work in the flavors into the rest of the components.

[David A. Goldfarb]

Since this is going to be a one bite thing, I'd try a broth that's been reduced at least to consomme, so it should have more body, more flavor, and maybe enough calcium on its own to work in the alginate bath.

If all else fails, you could just make a soup dumpling, but that wouldn't be as fun.

[Tri2Cook]

I'd try a broth that's been reduced at least to consomme

Errr... a stock doesn't require reduction to become a consomme. Just clarification.

[David A. Goldfarb]

I'd try a broth that's been reduced at least to consomme

Errr... a stock doesn't require reduction to become a consomme. Just clarification.

Fair enough, but if I make a consomme, I've usually reduced the stock by about half first.

[thayes1c]

Freezing the spheres is the way to go. I can't tell you how many gooey blobs of alginate mucous I went through before freezing it. I leave the alginate bath warm so the liquid can melt, too. I use a 1/2" hemisphere ice cube trays I found at Bed, Bath and Beyond and they work great. I've only really played with making wine "grapes" and the El Bulli olives. The olives are a must try, in my opinion.

As for the traditional spherification, if you want to make caviar the easy way grab a Vaccu-Pette is a great way to make 96 at a time instead of one drop by drop. They're cheaper from a lab supply company, too, so don't let some gourmet food retailer rip you off. (And don't worry, they come sterile packaged!)

[tammylc]

I bought myself some alginate and calcium chloride for Christmas. My first experiment - basic melon caviar - worked well. Last night I mixed up some beet juice with alginate and when I tried to make some caviar this morning it didn't work nearly as well. The liquid did bead up in the calcium chloride solution, but then it would start "bleeding out" into the solution. If I pulled the caviar out and rinsed them I got decent balls that were stable for a little bit, but then would continue to leak. And the walls/skin were pretty thick, despite the leaking.

I tried adding a bit more alginate, but it didn't help, and I'm not sure I incorporated it well enough in any case.

Anyone successfully made beet caviar and have proportions to share? I should note that I made my beet juice by pureeing beets with a bit of extra water, and that my water is somewhat hard, so I probably introduced some calcium in addition to whatever might be in the beet already - would that be reacting with the alginate and reducing it's activity in the bath? The liquid is not particularly thick, i don't think, although not having done this much I'm not sure how to tell...

Thanks for any advice!

[Canned Tuna]

Another spherification noob here. I have the basic kit from Chef Rubber. Hind sight being 20/20, I would have ordered the gluco at the same time but it wasn't until my first failure I really started reading about the technique.

After failing by following the instructions with the kit I was able to get decent results buy gradually adding the algin to the food liquid by "trial and error" until decent spheres formed. I also began using distilled water (thanks to this thread) at 500ml and 7g of calcium chloride. For the liquor I started with about 1/4 cup of liquid and about 1/2 teaspoon algin and increased the algin by 1/4 teaspoon from there until I had good results. The consistancy of the liquid, creme de casis in my case, was like BBQ sauce. Initially, I 'cooked' the liquid for about 2 minutes but found that after about 4 minutes the spheres were more stable. I'm hoping to get better results with the gluco.

A couple things I found were: making caviar, if I held the syringe horizontally I had less of a chance making tails. The caviar I made was a little unstable after it was removed from a water bath so I kept it in a ramekin filled with clean water until I was ready to plate. It took about 6-7 minutes before the spheres started to loose their shape and began turning into one homogenous glob.

Anyway, here's my idea, thanks for all the info in this thread!

Seared duck breast over wild rice with creme de casis caviar - sushi style

[Phaz]

This thread has a lot of great info for a noobie like myself.

Now that this stuff seems to be more mainstream, are there any good kits or suppliers (for the US preferably) that make it easier to get started?

I'm particularly interested in doing things that involve alcohol (and from what I've read, thus reverse spherification is the way to go). A friend of mine has his 21st coming up and I'm doing a fancy dinner for him.

[DaveJes1979]

I know this thread went silent a little while back, but I see some folks have tried to spherify tomato juice and have had some success. I was going to try doing the freeze/reverse spherification method to create tomato "ravioli". If successful, I'd inject basil and garlic-infused olive oil into it with a syringe, and sprinkle with grated parmesan and crumbled proscuitto.

But what approach should I take regarding the actual tomato liquid? A few options come to mind:

1. Use tomato juice from a can of tomatoes. This would be more like "tomato water" and my guess would be that this has a high chance of success of spherifying well.

2. Use V8/bloody mary style tomato juice purchased from the store. Still a thin liquid, but bolder flavor.

3. Extract tomato juice via citrus juicer and strain. Optionally one could reduce this liquid in a saucepan for a bit to concentrate the flavor.

The citrus juicer might even be overkill for this, simply removing the pulp and seeds over a bowl, retaining the pulp, seeds, and liquid to be strained and reduced (following Heston Blumenthal's tomato concentrate/ketsup recipe), discarding skins and flesh.

4. Use a can of tomato soup. This is starting to get on the thicker end of the spectrum. The taste may be pretty good, but no longer a "pure" tomato (added salt, etc.).

5. Puree tomatoes in blender. This will probably have thickness equal or greater than tomato sauce. May be too thick for spherification unless watered down.

6. Use can of tomato sauce. Pretty thick stuff. Probably not going to work, but there it is.

Any ideas on which one of these methods I should try? I'm a spherification newbie (and my copy of MC still hasn't arrived ), so I definitely need some guidance.

Edited March 29, 2011 by DaveJes1979 (log)