Second Avenue Deli

[JohnnyH]

From Eater, more to the story:

The Morning After: Second Ave. Deli Post Mortem

As expected, there's more to the 2nd Avenue Deli closing than just higher rent. From a NYT piece today on yesterday's de-signage: " A principal of one of the companies that own the building, Martin Newman, said that [owner Jack] Lebewohl owed $107,000 in back rent and other charges and that eviction proceedings had begun even before the deli closed." Ouch. Very ouch.

The good news: Lebewohl says he's received offers from other landlords in the city to open up shop in their buildings. Meantime, the dearly departed signage might pop up on eBay yet: Lebewohl says he plans to give most of it away. [Photo by Keith Kin Yan]

· If Second Ave. Deli Reopens, It Won't Be Where It Was [NYTimes]

· Second Avenue Kosher Delicatessen (1954-2006) [~E~]

[alacarte]

Kara, what do you think of Gottlieb's in Williamsburg? I haven't been there but have heard some good reports.

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I haven't been there, sorry! But would love to hear if anyone has.

[Mimi Sheraton]

The issue of whether 2nd Avenue Deli is "glatt kosher" is separate from whether they are open on Shabbat.

"Glatt kosher" simply means that the lungs of the animal were inspected to ensure that they are without any adhesions.  It has nothing to do with whether the restaurant is open on Shabbat.

I am not sure whether or not 2nd Avenue Deli was glatt kosher or not.  But you are correct that they were on open on Shabbat, which would preclude many Orthodox Jews from eating there.

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Really Orthodox Jews did not eat at 2nd Ave. It was not glatt kosher as it stayed open over Shabbas..Fri. sundown to Sat. sundown. I doubt that orthodox Jews in Bklyn, atet at 2nd Ave.

You are strictly speaking correct as I wrote in The New York Times Jewish Cookbook. But "glatt": has come to signify shomer shabbas observers. A small point at most.

[Swisskaese]

Glatt Kosher only refers to how meat is slaughtered.

If someone only eats Glatt Kosher meat, then obviously they will only eat at Glatt Kosher restaurants. Glatt Kosher restaurants are only meat restaurants.

If 2nd Avenue Deli was open on Shabbat, then that means that the restaurant did not have Kosher certification and therefore, they are not a Kosher restaurant. It is possible that all of their meat is Kosher, but strick Observant Jews do not eat in restaurants that do not have Kosher certification.

Glatt Kosher has nothing to do with Shomer Shabbat. Most Shomer Shabbat Jews do not keep Glatt Kosher. So, I do not understand why this definition was made.

Furthermore, there are Jews from other streams of Judiasm that are Shomer Shabbat.

Edited January 12, 2006 by Swisskaese (log)

[Pan]

Michelle, there are actually a number of restaurants in New York that are open on Shabbat but yet are certified as serving kosher food and drink by an orthodox rabbi. Of course, many Sabbath observers will not eat their food, anyway, but it is incorrect to say that none of them are certified as kosher, unless certification means something different from what I think it means.

[cakewalk]

Oh the complexities of kashrut! Well, l suppose like anything else it can be as complex as you make it. There is a difference between "being certified as serving kosher food and drink" and having an overall certified kosher establishment. The concept of "kashrut" in its entirety does not pertain only to the food and drink. (That would be much too simple! ) So, if a place is open on Shabbat, it would not be considered a kosher establishment, even if the food and drink itself is kosher. The two aspects are not completely distinct one from the other. Because nothing is. Distinct, that is. Am I being clear? There are other examples where the food itself might be kosher or veggie, but the place wouldn't be considered kosher. I remember a friend of mine mentioning (long ago, so I don't recall the details) a veggie place that was Buddhist, and all food was considered sanctified to Buddha. Kosher food or no, you wouldn't catch many Orthodox Jews eathing there. So there are things besides the actual food and drink that are taken into consideration. But like all things of this nature, individual choice always exists.

[wesza]

Oh the complexities of kashrut! Well, l suppose like anything else it can be as complex as you make it. There is a difference between "being certified as serving kosher food and drink" and having an overall certified kosher establishment. The concept of "kashrut" in its entirety does not pertain only to the food and drink. (That would be much too simple!  ) So, if a place is open on Shabbat, it would not be considered a kosher establishment, even if the food and drink itself is kosher. The two aspects are not completely distinct one from the other. Because nothing is. Distinct, that is. Am I being clear?  There are other examples where the food itself might be kosher or veggie, but the place wouldn't be considered kosher. I remember a friend of mine mentioning (long ago, so I don't recall the details) a veggie place that was Buddhist, and all food was considered sanctified to Buddha. Kosher food or no, you wouldn't catch many Orthodox Jews eathing there. So there are things besides the actual food and drink that are taken into consideration. But like all things of this nature, individual choice always exists.

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In discussing exactly what is Kosher it's important to realize that what has now in 2006 become a organized "PROFIT" making business thru selling "Kashrut" by groups of "Rabbi's or individual "Rabbi's" is completely different to the actual Laws as interpreted every where originally.

For providing "Kosher Certification" for foods that were sold interstate the Union of Orthodox Rabbi's started to provide assurance thru supervision and inspection for Kosher Consumers everywhere, for many years this was the most well known and accepted certification.

It was generally well known and accepted in most communities that every Jewish Male who was "Bar Mitzvahs" could be construed as a "Reb" and was allowed to claim that his establishment was Kosher. This was acceptable all over the NYC areas until fairly recently. Places like the "2nd Avenue Deli", "Ratners", and many other business have always kept Kosher under that premise. The places that opened weekend, under ALL Kashrut requirements are permitted to officially stay open doing business by having what's called a "Shabbos Goy" managing the business, making sure to observe the Kosher requirements. This is still permitted.

It wasn't until there were more so called "From" or Ultra Orthodox Jews becoming more vocal, not comfortable unless being led or directed by leaders who discovered that there was a excellent opportunity to be able to increase their income, while making sure to check, inspect and certify places willing to pay their fees and display their "Kashrut Certifications" to verify that they were Kosher enough thru royalties to serve their congregations. This is what has grown into the current situation where various Rabbi's politically maneuver in competition with each other about whose Hecksher is more Kosher.

Thats where the current state has evolved. I know many Orthrodox Rabbi's that still enjoyed eating at the 2nd Avenue Deli who were comfortable about the owners observation of Jewish Law, and I am sure that it was always observed honestly and even more so then in other places that I am familiar with that are supposedly under supervision.

Irwin

[markabauman]

Anyone see this?

Second Avenue Deli article

[docsconz]

From the article:

The building the family is seeking to purchase, a five-story walkup at 162 E. 33rd St., sits between Lexington and Third avenues on a relatively quiet commercial block dotted with laundromats, nail salons, and restaurants. The reincarnation of the 2nd Avenue Deli would occupy the building 's ground-level commercial space, which is currently rented to a Spanish restaurant and tapas bar, Marbella.

[Fresser]

YES! YES!! YESSS!!!

Oops, wrong deli. 

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I'll have what Duck's having.

On my first night in NYC, Big Mushy and Mrs. Mushy took me to the 2nd Avenue Deli. We fressed on chicken livers, corned beef and were served by an appropriately grouchy waitress.

[Jmahl]

Will Jewish Deli's survive in NYC.

This week's NYT Magazine has an article.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/21/magazine...=1&ref=magazine

Go, Nosh.

Jmahl

[abooja]

Thanks for the link.

It'll be great to have the 2nd Avenue Deli back, even if it's now off of 3rd Avenue.

-- Lisa

[savethedeli]

It's official, the deli will open next monday, the 17th. Fress on brothers, fress on.

[Gifted Gourmet]

Save the Deli update

Looks as if it had been open and doing business forever sans hiatus ...

[SuzySushi]

So where is it? On East 33rd Street between Lexington and Third? (My old neighborhood...)

[Pan]

Save the Deli update

Looks as if it had been open and doing business forever sans hiatus ...

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What a beautiful story, Savethedeli! Thanks for the link, Melissa.

[raji]

Carnegie has been known for pastrami ever since I awarded them first prize in a city wide tasting in about 1977  altho the corned beef was great too. They no longer make both in their basement.  Katz's meat though flavorful, is often full of gristle and sinews and, once slightlyt cooled, tastes awful. Carnegie's stands up much better. By the way, if you ask, Carnegie will hand slice. I think the best pastrami in NYC is at Pastrami Queen on 3rd Ave.  or Lex. bet. 85th & 86th. if they are still there.

I somehow wound up at 79th and Lex, and on Lex between 77th and 78th on Lex is the Pastrami Queen. Is this the same one you refer to?

I popped in and ordered a hot pastrami on rye to go, russian and mustard on the side and ate half on the bus downtown; not the ideal situation, but I had to stay mobile. Dare I say this is a very good sandwich. Very much a more refined Katz's, sliced thinner, leaner but very flavorful. Size-wise, it's probably about .25 lbs smaller than a Katz's, so it can be consumed in one sitting without a huge amount of guilt, but for $12.95, you are paying Upper East Side prices.

[raji]

I should also add that I'm not exactly going out of my way to return to 2nd Avenue Deli - my mom's cousin, who probably eats enough deli to keep one of those places in business, reported back that the lines got longer, the prices skyrocketed, and the portions actually got smaller, so if she's around there she goes to Sarge's.

Katz's is still my favorite for pastrami and corned beef, but PQ is damn good. I can justify paying >$20 at Carnegie because, if I have the good fortune of buying a "Woody Allen" before a major weather event, I know I could pretty much make sub-sandwiches off of the original Carnegie monster for another 3-4 days.

[flinflon28]

Went to 2nd Ave Deli on Saturday around 2:00. 5 minute wait and had the "Instant Heart Attack" (Pastrami piled high between two potato pancakes).

It was delicious and decadent to say the least. I'm not a Deli expert by any means but it was great meat and my friend's corned beef sandwich was very tasty too.

It was the service that was worthy of note. Incredibly firendly waitress. Also brought us mini shots of chocolate egg creams with the check. Not sure if that happens with every check drop.