New Generation Gins

[Chris Amirault]

I like Whitley Neill too, but it's not rare here anymore. I know of at least five shelves on which you can find it around town.

[jneu]

I feel it's worth seconding KL's comments on Bluecoat, definitely one of the better new-gen gins out there, unlike some of the others it's got a full, complex flavor profile (rather than a "flavored vodka" with just enough juniper to please the Feds) even if it's not a traditional London Dry, and a great match for citrus flavors, like she said.

On the Wisconsin end, has anyone tried Death's Door gin? Jneu, can you give more detail regarding Rehorst -- I almost scored a bottle during my last trip to Milwaukee, but didn't have time.

Finally, because it hasn't been mentioned for a while, probably because it's rarer than Euro-recipe Amer Picon, I'll speak again on the unique, yet still true to traditional gin taste of Whitley Neil. In fact, now I know what I'll be mixing with tonight . . . .

I have tried the Death's Door Gin distilled by Yahara Bay in Madison. It's OK. Not much going on.

The Rehorst Gin uses 9 botanicals, including Wisconsin ginseng and sweet basil. It has a fair amount of juniper flavor, but the other ingredients shine through also, it finishes with a nice herbal (basil) note. Tasty stuff, especially in a Martinez w/ Carpano Antica.

[brinza]

Plymouth was significantly less expensive than Tanqueray and Beefeater. The increase in price was, I am given to understand, a deliberate move on the part of Plymouth to increase the perceived status of the brand (much in the same way that vodkas are often "ranked" according to price in the minds of most consumers). For my part, this has sadly led to a serious decrease in home consumption of Plymouth because, while I think it's a great product, the softness makes it less versatile than the "ginnier" London dry gins.

This artificial price escalation is my main complaint with Plymouth Gin. Maybe, just maybe if the proof were higher, the price might seem a little more justifiable. As it is, I have stopped buying the product altogether. It's up to $30 in PA. There are better products out there for less money (I picked up Citadelle in NC for $17. Wonderful stuff--why didn't I buy a case?). And I think the notion of Plymouth being so indispensable has been highly exaggerated.

[Kohai]

I've been seeing something strange with Bluecoat.

Some of the bottles - at least two of the six that we have - have a weird "corked" flavor, very similar to the flavor of corked wine. Some sort of synthetic, moldy ick going on. It really is odd. Anyone else run into this?

[KatieLoeb]

I've been seeing something strange with Bluecoat.

Some of the bottles - at least two of the six that we have - have a weird "corked" flavor, very similar to the flavor of corked wine. Some sort of synthetic, moldy ick going on. It really is odd. Anyone else run into this?

That's disturbing. I'll let my friends at Philadelphia Distilling know about that. That can't be right...

[Chris Amirault]

Boy, did I get an earful about Bluecoat when I visited Portland recently. Jeffrey Morgenthaler in particular was horrified when I told him about the Viggo I've been playing around with. "Here," he said, tossing a book at me. "Read what Paul Pacult says about Bluecoat." From his Kindred Spirits 2:

[M]y hope was that this would begin to smell like gin by displaying ... a trace of juniper, but that hope was dashed on the trash heap of reality as the horrible burnt rubber odor gets stronger; without any doubt in my mind, the worst gin bouquet I've ever encountered. The palate [leaves] behind a manufactured taste of glue in the woeful finish. A new entry for my Bottom Feeder List, this one-car accident doesn't in the least resemble gin at any level. Beyond horrible. Makes me yearn for early retirement.

A review that would make Lester Bangs blush.

[lancastermike]

And I would reply to Paul Pacult with a hearty "Fuck You". Clearly Bluecoat does NOT have a heavy hand with the juniper. If that is required to be considered good gin there are many he must not like. That sort of over the top comment does no good for anyone.

Bluecoat leans towards a lighter flavor. It works well in my Aviation's and other drinks. I do NOT proclaim to be a gin "expert" like Mr. Pacult apparently is. I also try not to be a pretentious blowhard like him.

[Chris Amirault]

I think that the concern that he and others raise is that there have been inconsistencies in the distillation. That's certainly the beef among the critics I've talked to, and it would account for why you and I have had so many good experiences and others haven't.

[slkinsey]

I don't quite get how not liking Bluecoat Gin, or indeed finding it execrable makes one a "pretentious blowhard." I wouldn't go so far as to say it's execrable myself, but also don't think it's particularly distinctive as a gin. I suppose I hang with Mr. Pacult in holding that the fundamental criterion for being a gin is having a primary flavor of juniper. Bluecoat, to me, hangs together with a number of self-proclaimed but-not-exactly-gin products having a primary character of citrus, with juniper somewhere in the background. Good products to introduce a citrus vodka drinker to juniper flavors, and not bad in a citrus drink (especially a long one) if you want to layer citrus on top of citrus. Combining like with like isn't really my thing, but some people like it and do it well.

I think people who like gin sometimes have a difficulty using products like Bluecoat and Hamptons and Tanqueray Rangpur and No. 209 (etc.) because they try to use it like gin, or in drinks where gin is normally used. These citrus-forward-with-a-touch-of-juniper spirits frequently don't work that way. I can't imagine using one of these products in a Juniperotivo, for example, because what makes the drink work is the juniper shining through all the other flavors. Rather, I think it makes more sense to think of these products like citrus-flavored spirits with some added complexity that includes a whisper of juniper (the world's best citrus vodka, if you will). This category of spirit is not so interesting to me, but many of them are quality products at what they do.

That said, and as Chris mentions, Bluecoat has had some distilling and quality control issues. Kohai was reporting as far back as February that he was seeing a significant percentage of bottles with a "synthetic, moldy ick going on." It seems likely, given Mr. Pacult's description, that he got one of these problem bottles (I should hasten to point out that it's not Mr. Pacult's obligation to search out alternative bottles to sample, but rather Bluecoat's obligation to have much, much better quality control). Given Bluecoat's lack of a distinctive juniper character, and the strong probability that he sampled some of their bad bottles, his judgment that it "doesn't in the least resemble gin at any level" doesn't seem out of line -- local pride notwithstanding.

[lancastermike]

I don't quite get how not liking Bluecoat Gin, or indeed finding it execrable makes one a "pretentious blowhard." I wouldn't go so far as to say it's execrable myself, but also don't think it's particularly distinctive as a gin. I suppose I hang with Mr. Pacult in holding that the fundamental criterion for being a gin is having a primary flavor of juniper. Bluecoat, to me, hangs together with a number of self-proclaimed but-not-exactly-gin products having a primary character of citrus, with juniper somewhere in the background. Good products to introduce a citrus vodka drinker to juniper flavors, and not bad in a citrus drink (especially a long one) if you want to layer citrus on top of citrus. Combining like with like isn't really my thing, but some people like it and do it well.

I think people who like gin sometimes have a difficulty using products like Bluecoat and Hamptons and Tanqueray Rangpur and No. 209 (etc.) because they try to use it like gin, or in drinks where gin is normally used. These citrus-forward-with-a-touch-of-juniper spirits frequently don't work that way. I can't imagine using one of these products in a Juniperotivo, for example, because what makes the drink work is the juniper shining through all the other flavors. Rather, I think it makes more sense to think of these products like citrus-flavored spirits with some added complexity that includes a whisper of juniper (the world's best citrus vodka, if you will). This category of spirit is not so interesting to me, but many of them are quality products at what they do.

That said, and as Chris mentions, Bluecoat has had some distilling and quality control issues. Kohai was reporting as far back as February that he was seeing a significant percentage of bottles with a "synthetic, moldy ick going on." It seems likely, given Mr. Pacult's description, that he got one of these problem bottles (I should hasten to point out that it's not Mr. Pacult's obligation to search out alternative bottles to sample, but rather Bluecoat's obligation to have much, much better quality control). Given Bluecoat's lack of a distinctive juniper character, and the strong probability that he sampled some of their bad bottles, his judgment that it "doesn't in the least resemble gin at any level" doesn't seem out of line -- local pride notwithstanding.

OK, you convinced me. It is rotgut. I'll go home at once and pour what I have down the drain. My apologies to Mr. Pacult for calling him a pretentious blowhard. I don't even know who he is, but if he is some sort of expert on spirits the sort of comment he made does not reflect well on him. No reason at all to be that obnoxious.

What came over me? Perhaps the heat wave is to blame. Or the consumption of lousy gin has cause me to think I should comment. With luck, I'll soon return to my senses and just go away and not bother those of superior knowledge. Just who the hell do I think I am?

Edited July 20, 2010 by lancastermike (log)

[JAZ]

It seems to me that there are two lines of criticism going here. If Bluecoat has production/quality control problems that result in some batches being definitely off -- burnt tires, "synthetic moldy ick" etc. -- and people comment on that, how does this make them pretentious, or blowhards?

It's unfortunate that Paul Pacult got a bad bottle, but it's not his fault. Should he have tried again, with an untainted bottle? Maybe, but I can't blame him for not wanting to if the original bottle was that bad.

As for the other line of criticism, there are lots of gins out there that don't carry much juniper punch (as Sam points out). Bluecoat (a good batch), Bombay Sapphire and Tanq 10 are the three that I've tried most often. They're fine -- good in some drinks, not so great in others. If I were going to pick one gin to drink, though, none of those would be it: I want my gin to have a big dose of juniper.

Does any of this mean you should pour out your bottle? Of course not. To take a similar example, I'm on the record here describing Smith & Cross rum as tasting like dust balls and old sweat socks, but none of its adherents called me a blowhard (at least not to my face), and I certainly didn't imply -- nor did they infer -- that I thought they all had bad taste. I'm sure none of them are pouring their bottles down the sink.

[EvergreenDan]

FWIW, my bottle may not be remarkable, but it certainly doesn't have the unpleasant characteristics mentioned.

Personally I consider maker's reputation and reviewer consensus when I discover an unexpectedly bad product. And of course, some good products just aren't to my taste.

[brinza]

I think the problem with Mr. Pacult's review was not simply the fact that he didn't like it, but the way he chose to describe it. Honestly, I was wondering if perhaps he was eating the cork instead of drinking the gin. I doubt if, say, Michael Jackson would have described a whiskey in such terms. At least he had the decency to say that if he gave a whiskey a low rating, that it merely meant "Perhaps I was less than enthusiastic; you might love it."

I've only gone through 2 bottles of Bluecoat, and both were fine. I think the hue of the bottles themselves were different, but it might be that the empty one I had sitting around is sun-faded (I just can't bring myself to throw those bottles away), otherwise, the taste seemed the same.

JAZ, I laughed at your comment about the Smith & Cross Rum. You don't even want to know what I think Pyrat tastes like.

So here's a question: Even though this thread is about New Generation Gins, these days the stores seem to be full of them. So let's say one wanted to take a few steps back away from New Generation Gins and search out more juniper-forward gins. Other than Tanqueray, Beefeater, Gordon's, Boodles, and Seagram's, what are some other good juniper-forward gins that one should look for? (And don't say Junipero, because it doesn't seem to be very widely distributed).

[Dan Perrigan]

Other than Tanqueray, Beefeater, Gordon's, Boodles, and Seagram's, what are some other good juniper-forward gins that one should look for? (And don't say Junipero, because it doesn't seem to be very widely distributed).

I was introduced to Broker's Gin a few months ago and it's now my favorite all-around gin. Strong juniper, 94 Proof, reasonably priced (about $26 for a Liter bottle). It makes a damn fine Corpse Reviver. It's hard to find on the East Coast, though. When I lived in Chicago it was easy to find.

Dan

[thirtyoneknots]

So here's a question: Even though this thread is about New Generation Gins, these days the stores seem to be full of them. So let's say one wanted to take a few steps back away from New Generation Gins and search out more juniper-forward gins. Other than Tanqueray, Beefeater, Gordon's, Boodles, and Seagram's, what are some other good juniper-forward gins that one should look for? (And don't say Junipero, because it doesn't seem to be very widely distributed).

Bombay Dry. A bit heavy on the cardamom, but it's good stuff. Shame the idea of "Bombay Gin" now almost universally connotes sapphire.

[Kohai]

Hear hear on the Bombay Dry.

Full-strength Gordon's, too. But good luck.

[slkinsey]

Full strength Gordon's! Alas, not available in the US. But for the full on Christmas tree effect, it's hard to beat Gordon's. Even the weak sauce Gordon's we get here is one of the most juniper-y gins around.

I'm actually in the market for a cold trap so I can freeze-distill the extra water out of Gordon's and Old Overholt up to around 50% ABV.

[Kohai]

Huh. Now that is an idea........

ETA: A crazy thing about full-on Gordon's is that you can't even buy it in the UK, I'm given to understand - except in duty free stores in the airport. WTF.

What about Plymouth? Isn't the English bottling proofier than the milquetoast US bottling?

"Proofier". Ha.

Edited July 21, 2010 by Kohai (log)

[slkinsey]

afaik, Plymouth's flagship product is 41.2% abv everywhere. They also make a 57% abv "navy strength" product that is not available in the US.

[thirtyoneknots]

Full strength Gordon's! Alas, not available in the US. But for the full on Christmas tree effect, it's hard to beat Gordon's. Even the weak sauce Gordon's we get here is one of the most juniper-y gins around.

I'm actually in the market for a cold trap so I can freeze-distill the extra water out of Gordon's and Old Overholt up to around 50% ABV.

I actually had the opportunity to try full-strength (94 proof) Gordon's about a year ago and although my tasting wasn't a side-by-side I didn't feel like I was missing out on anything since I have access to Tanqueray. Aren't they even made by the same company?

Our Gordon's suffices just fine for most any gin highball type thing, and what a price!

[slkinsey]

imo, Gordon's is the most juniper-forward of all the classic London dry gins. The full strength stuff is further in that direction.

[thirtyoneknots]

imo, Gordon's is the most juniper-forward of all the classic London dry gins. The full strength stuff is further in that direction.

I would dispute that only to say that Gordon's has fewer accents on the juniper, so it stands out a little more with respect to Tanqueray, but I don't think the amount present is actually greater. It's just that if you wanted to show someone what juniper and juniper alone tasted like, you could give them a sample of Gordon's. With Tanqueray the angelica and citrus are strong supporting notes that might confuse someone.

eta: I guess that is not necessarily mutually exclusive with your claim.

Edited July 21, 2010 by thirtyoneknots (log)

[brinza]

I was introduced to Broker's Gin a few months ago and it's now my favorite all-around gin. Strong juniper, 94 Proof, reasonably priced (about $26 for a Liter bottle).

I did manage to get a hold of one bottle of Broker's. I though it was excellent. I'd like to be able to get it again.

Bombay Dry. A bit heavy on the cardamom, but it's good stuff. Shame the idea of "Bombay Gin" now almost universally connotes sapphire.

I almost forgot about Bombay Dry. I bought it once. I'm going to have to revisit it (and it's much less expensive than Sapphire, too).

It's just that if you wanted to show someone what juniper and juniper alone tasted like, you could give them a sample of Gordon's.

Actually, there is a gin made in Germany called Steinhager. And under German law, it may be flavored with only juniper and no other botanicals.

So, it seems that for a juniper-heavy, 94-proof gin, the best choices are Tanqueray, Broker's, and Seagram's Distiller's Reserve. Running close behind these would be Boodles at 90.4 proof, and Bombay Dry at 86 proof.

[Chris Amirault]

Another vote here for Broker's. I blew through a liter a while ago and haven't been able to find it since.

[thirtyoneknots]

It's just that if you wanted to show someone what juniper and juniper alone tasted like, you could give them a sample of Gordon's.

Actually, there is a gin made in Germany called Steinhager. And under German law, it may be flavored with only juniper and no other botanicals.

So, it seems that for a juniper-heavy, 94-proof gin, the best choices are Tanqueray, Broker's, and Seagram's Distiller's Reserve. Running close behind these would be Boodles at 90.4 proof, and Bombay Dry at 86 proof.

Steinhager is weird, and I don't think it really works where a London Dry is called for. Brokers is pretty ubiquitous around here. I like it ok but I never really buy it.

As for your choices, don't forget Beefeaters! It probably makes up over half of all my gin comsumption. The more I drink it the more I become convinced it represents the platonic ideal for London Dry Gin.