Virgin Vines says it's hip to be dumb

[docsconz]

Daniel, I do not believe that anyone is arguing for ignorance. I wholeheartedly agree that at least a rudimentary knowledge of the language of wine helps with its enjoyment. However, one must learn to walk before one can run. One must get over the initial intimidation to be able to say, "hey, I like this stuff". Now I have no idea if this stuff is at all likeable, whether by a new wine drinker or an expert. I don't really intend to find out as I like to pair my wine and food.

[Busboy]

What about those who just want to drink it?

Charles, Hello.....

Both Van Gogh and Andy Warhol did portraits of women and those can be found in many museums of modern art. Wouldn't it help the person looking at those portraits if they knew just a wee little bit about the lives of those artists? Or, in a restaurant, knowing just a tad of knowledge about the differences in flavor and texture between a T-Bone and an entrecote steak?

I hate to sound pompous but ignorance is not bliss. It is simply ignorance and in the end that robs us of the ability to gain full enjoyment from either a painting, a steak or a glass of wine.

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I think there's room for people want to just walk into the gallery and say "nice painting."

You and I may choose to get to know the backstory better but, in a world that places many demands on most people, requiring homework of anyone who wants to quaff a glass of wine or look at a painting or catch a bit of Shakespeare on Friday night seems a bit puritanical.

Sure, the cheap anti-intellectualism of the VV ads is juvenile, but who cares. Not our problem. People destined to like wine will start with the swill -- I remember the Mateus Rose and Blue Nun of my own misspent youth, not to mention the Gallo Pink Rose -- and move up at their own pace.

More worrying to me is that approaching wine-drinking as though it were an an academic discipline intimidates and puts off people, by making it seem that simply enjoying the stuff is somehow an inadequate; as though have to know soil types and weird adjectives to prove that they're worthy.

And while what wine knowledge I've garnered over the years (stipulating that I am in not in the same league as you or many others on eGullet) makes it more likely that I'll choose a bottle of wine I enjoy, it doesn't in itself make the wine I'm drinking any more enjoyable. Ignorance may not be bliss, but neither is knowing harvest dates, brix, precise blends or how long the juice sat on the lees.

I'm sure I'd be just as happy if I knew nothing about wine save that I liked it, but had you working at my corner liquor store putting the appropriate bottle in my hand as dinner approached, as I would be knowing as much about wine as you do and picking it out myself. Happier, probably, because then if my guests made faces I could shift the blame away from myself.

Of course, the Cat in the Hat said, "it's fun to have fun, but you have to know how," so maybe I've got this all wrong.

[KatieLoeb]

What about those who just want to drink it?

Charles, Hello.....

Both Van Gogh and Andy Warhol did portraits of women and those can be found in many museums of modern art. Wouldn't it help the person looking at those portraits if they knew just a wee little bit about the lives of those artists? Or, in a restaurant, knowing just a tad of knowledge about the differences in flavor and texture between a T-Bone and an entrecote steak?

I hate to sound pompous but ignorance is not bliss. It is simply ignorance and in the end that robs us of the ability to gain full enjoyment from either a painting, a steak or a glass of wine.

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I think there's room for people want to just walk into the gallery and say "nice painting."

You and I may choose to get to know the backstory better but, in a world that places many demands on most people, requiring homework of anyone who wants to quaff a glass of wine or look at a painting or catch a bit of Shakespeare on Friday night seems a bit puritanical.

Sure, the cheap anti-intellectualism of the VV ads is juvenile, but who cares. Not our problem. People destined to like wine will start with the swill -- I remember the Mateus Rose and Blue Nun of my own misspent youth, not to mention the Gallo Pink Rose -- and move up at their own pace.

More worrying to me is that approaching wine-drinking as though it were an an academic discipline intimidates and puts off people, by making it seem that simply enjoying the stuff is somehow an inadequate; as though have to know soil types and weird adjectives to prove that they're worthy.

And while what wine knowledge I've garnered over the years (stipulating that I am in not in the same league as you or many others on eGullet) makes it more likely that I'll choose a bottle of wine I enjoy, it doesn't in itself make the wine I'm drinking any more enjoyable. Ignorance may not be bliss, but neither is knowing harvest dates, brix, precise blends or how long the juice sat on the lees.

I'm sure I'd be just as happy if I knew nothing about wine save that I liked it, but had you working at my corner liquor store putting the appropriate bottle in my hand as dinner approached, as I would be knowing as much about wine as you do and picking it out myself. Happier, probably, because then if my guests made faces I could shift the blame away from myself.

Of course, the Cat in the Hat said, "it's fun to have fun, but you have to know how," so maybe I've got this all wrong.

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I think there has to be a happy middle ground, somewhere between high falutin' academic dissection of wine complete with its own intimidating vocabulary and knowledge of the "insider secrets" like how to swirl and sniff and which perfectly formed Riedel Sommelier series glass that wine ought to be served in and utter and complete ignorance at the other end of the spectrum, where glassy eyed novice wine enthusiasts are handed that bottle at the store by someone with no more knowledge than they themselves possess. Charles is definitely on to something with the "Nice painting" analogy. I too, remember Boone's Farm, Mateus and Blue Nun. I have been faced with countless customers that were quaking in their shoes at the prospect of having to choose wine from a wine list. I used to be a terrible "white zin snob" where I'd rather die than serve it at a restaurant where I was in charge of the list, as if it were some reflection on my own taste or abilities as a sommelier. But in the end we all have to start somewhere. And if the "entry level" "Wine for Dummies" makes for more wine drinkers in the world in the end, then I'm happy. Now it's my job to get them to take off their training wheels and drink some real wine and maybe learn a thing or two in a non-intimidating sort of way.

[Daniel Rogov]

I yield.

Perhaps I've been to insistent on this and after reading the arguments presented here do indeed agree that I'd rather have someone try a wine and just say "Hey, this is nice stuff" than sip a soft drink or orange juice with his/her entrecote or T-bone steak.

I'm certainly not in favor of the mysterious language mystique....I guess my desire is partly to demystify the language and make it part of the everyday talk between friends. Granted, not talk about brix, pre-phylloxera Bordeaux or the dangers of red mold, but at least let's say about body, aromas, flavors, balance and so on...... As is said in Arabic "shwoya, shwoya"....in Hebrew "le'at, le'at" ... and of course in English "slowly, slowly"

[jsolomon]

I yield. 

Perhaps I've been to insistent on this and after reading the arguments presented here do indeed agree that I'd rather have someone try a wine and just say "Hey, this is nice stuff" than sip a soft drink or orange juice with his/her entrecote or T-bone steak. 

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I see where you're coming from Daniel, but I don't yield. At least, I don't yield completely. I DO still want good labeling for wine. I don't ask that it be complicated or anything like that, but I want it at least reasonably consistent, and I'm not sure Virgin Vines plans on having a consistent plan for someone to be able to take experience with their wine to a second level and use it as a springboard--based on labeling and tasting experience alone.

It might, simply as an entry to wine, get people comfortable with trying more wine--which Is A Good Thing, but if it still leaves them at the same precipice, but this time with a powerful thirst. It's still leaving us perilously close to where we are right now, before they start.

It's not much progress, and I don't see it as terrifically helpful progress.

All I'm asking for is labeling that will help people by being consistent with what labeling they'll see on other wines.

Edit: stoopid pre-caffeinated grammar and punctuation

Edited October 26, 2005 by jsolomon (log)

[MarketStEl]

I see where you're coming from Daniel, but I don't yield.  At least, I don't yield completely.  I DO still want good labeling for wine.  I don't ask that it be complicated or anything like that, but I want it at least reasonably consistent, and I'm not sure Virgin Vines plans on having a consistent plan for someone to be able to take experience with their wine to a second level and use it as a springboard--based on labeling and tasting experience alone.

It might, simply as an entry to wine, get people comfortable with trying more wine--which Is A Good Thing, but if it still leaves them at the same precipice, but this time with a powerful thirst.  It's still leaving us perilously close to where we are right now, before they start.

It's not much progress, and I don't see it as terrifically helpful progress.

All I'm asking for is labeling that will help people by being consistent with what labeling they'll see on other wines.

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I don't think that taking the consumer to the next level of expertise is really Virgin Vines' responsibility any more than it is Sutter Home's or Ernest & Julio Gallo's. That's really up to the consumer him/herself, armed with appropriate tools (a reputable wine guide, a knowledgeable salesperson, a trusted friend who knows wine...).

I have yet to run across a winery that follows the old General Motors brand-hierarchy system (a basic "starter" nameplate, then several other brands that are differentiated on a status ladder, a la Chevrolet/Oldsmobile/Pontiac/Buick/Cadillac)--though the various Mondavi permutations (Woodbridge/CK Mondavi/Robert Mondavi/Robert Mondavi Private Reserve...are all of these still under the same corporate umbrella?) come close--and I suspect that if a winery were to try this, it might confuse some of their customers.

BTW: Someone upthread mentioned Virgin Wines as an "alternative product" to Virgin Vines. It is no such thing. Virgin Wines is a British online wine retailer that offers a wide selection and direct-to-your-door delivery. As far as the education part is concerned, though, I do like their system for "browsers," in which wines are grouped according to taste profiles. Had something like that existed over here, I might not have had the reaction I had to the jargon of wine taste when I first encountered it.

[JohnL]

I see where you're coming from Daniel, but I don't yield.  At least, I don't yield completely.  I DO still want good labeling for wine.  I don't ask that it be complicated or anything like that, but I want it at least reasonably consistent, and I'm not sure Virgin Vines plans on having a consistent plan for someone to be able to take experience with their wine to a second level and use it as a springboard--based on labeling and tasting experience alone.

It might, simply as an entry to wine, get people comfortable with trying more wine--which Is A Good Thing, but if it still leaves them at the same precipice, but this time with a powerful thirst.  It's still leaving us perilously close to where we are right now, before they start.

It's not much progress, and I don't see it as terrifically helpful progress.

All I'm asking for is labeling that will help people by being consistent with what labeling they'll see on other wines.

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I don't think that taking the consumer to the next level of expertise is really Virgin Vines' responsibility any more than it is Sutter Home's or Ernest & Julio Gallo's. That's really up to the consumer him/herself, armed with appropriate tools (a reputable wine guide, a knowledgeable salesperson, a trusted friend who knows wine...).

I have yet to run across a winery that follows the old General Motors brand-hierarchy system (a basic "starter" nameplate, then several other brands that are differentiated on a status ladder, a la Chevrolet/Oldsmobile/Pontiac/Buick/Cadillac)--though the various Mondavi permutations (Woodbridge/CK Mondavi/Robert Mondavi/Robert Mondavi Private Reserve...are all of these still under the same corporate umbrella?) come close--and I suspect that if a winery were to try this, it might confuse some of their customers.

BTW: Someone upthread mentioned Virgin Wines as an "alternative product" to Virgin Vines. It is no such thing. Virgin Wines is a British online wine retailer that offers a wide selection and direct-to-your-door delivery. As far as the education part is concerned, though, I do like their system for "browsers," in which wines are grouped according to taste profiles. Had something like that existed over here, I might not have had the reaction I had to the jargon of wine taste when I first encountered it.

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Sandy

I believe I confused Virgin Vines and Virgin Wines.

Who knew there was a Virgin Wines!?

Well obviously you did and I thank you for pointing me to the Virgin Wines web site.

I have long thought (argued) that this is how wine needs to be sold: by flavor profile.

That is a simple easy to understand description of what one will expect to taste.

You are correct in noting that Virgin Vines is not about a strategy to get people to try a "starter wine" and move up to more "sophisticated wines. Sort of like training wheels.

This is part of the problem.

It seems that a lot of wine lovers can not seem to accept the fact that for many people there is no "next step" and the additional fact that this is perfectly fine in the greater scheme of things.

It is similar to the audio nut who can not fathom how 99% of the world's population listens to music on "low fi" systems.

As for Daniel's concerns--I believe he is on to something regarding standards. The main problem is that a kind of "winespeak" has developed.

I would argue that this began with the intent to be precise in describing wine and has evolved into an almost impenetrable jargon that amounts to one geek communicating with other geeks none of whom can actually translate the stuff back into a basic language ; thus creating an insular world only they can inhabit.

The result is not only exclusion of the greater world at large but the attempt at precision has led to imprecision.

There are many people who are well informed about wine who will tell you there is no objectivity--that wine can not be evaluated objectively (worse should not) and that there are only subjective "impressions." thus we have vague terms like "masculine" or "femine" or "finesse"--these terms are tossed about with no context and have long lost any real meaning (if indeed they ever had any real meaning).

The fact is, a well trained taster can determine many basic attributes of a wine and should be able to clearly communicate these.

Granted there is an acceptable level of "jargon" involved and a "lay" person can certainly with a little effort be able to "comprehend it ,but should not be expected to should they not be so inclined.

This is where another level of communications comes in.

Retailers should be able to communicate the attributes of what they sell to their customers.

This is an area where we often have retail shops that provide one or two options to a consumer.

One--you are on your own and we have little or no information about the wines other than they are arranged by place of origin. So

if you don't "know" Bordeaux we suggest you stay out of that section. Here one will be lucky if the store has pasted a score and tasting note from another source on the shelves.

Two--a sales "consultant" who has a solid wine education will attempt to guide you, the "unwashed"-- through the world of wine that is far to complex for you to understand.

I believe this is all changing. The Virgin Wines site is a good example-- as are retailers like "oddbins" etc how refreshing a departure from the "upscale" wine retailers in London who don't even display any bottles--you can't even browse--you have to deal with one of those "wine consultants).

Also--there are in store tastings and plenty of opportunities for people to learn a bit (or a lot) about wines.

At a higher level there are wine writers and critics who are attempting to make sense of wine and better communicate with a wider audience.

there are also publications some dedicated to wine others more general in nature that realize there is a potentially large audience of people who enjoy or would like to enjoy wine at many levels.

The growth of wine production in more and more countries has opened things up --the importance of what is in the glass is now more critical than where the grapes came from.

(Terroir is important but for too long it has been misused and abused--it has become a smokescreen for wine snobs who use it to separate themselves from the rest of the universe and by the wine trade to sell inferior wines).

The great thing about wine is it can be enjoyed at so many levels and ,best, it can be enjoyed with others. Enjoying wine--at whatever level--should involve fun.

That enjoyment should be inclusive not exclusive.

ps

VirginVines wine will hopefully be a well made wine and if a lot of folks try it and like it that is a good thing. It would also be nice to see more retail salespersons be able to open a dialog with the people buying VirginVines wine and engage them--"If you like this wine -I have a few other wines you might like...." or "what is it you enjoy about this wine? ...I have some others you might enjoy as well..."

Edited October 26, 2005 by JohnL (log)

[Brad Ballinger]

Actually, as the market for wine -- any wine -- continues to grow I think we will find snobbery, reverse snobbery, ignorance, and inquisitiveness, and everything in between. Let's look at how other alcoholic beverges are marketed.

Beer probably provides us with our best example. For the conglomerates like Anheuser Busch and whichever foreign company now owns Miller, many of the products in their portfolios are targeting a certain market -- a merket for whom the first duty of beer is to be cold, and the second duty is to be wet. Miller High Life may still call itself the "Champagne of Beers," but it's just a malted beverage. The imports go after a different market, and the microbrews a different market yet. I'm oversimplifying it, but you get the general idea.

Wine, on the other hand, has all been pretty much mass marketed in one uniform manner. It usually involves a setting where people are dressed in trendy attire, there is usally a mix of men and women, there's some type of event that the wine makes complete, and most self-respecting beer drinkers wouldn't be caught dead at such a gathering. With the holiday season approaching, you'll see the same general type of advertising for many different labels of wine. That Virgin Vines is breaking the mold and identifying a different market shouldn't be that unexpected.

Whether or not it will succeed remains to be seen. In the United States, Wine Brats and Wine X magazine had a run a few years back at sort of an anti-establishment, demystifying, less uppity, and more irreverent approach to wine. Both of those efforts eventually fizzled, but that might have had nothing to do with the absence of a market.

[jsolomon]

I don't think that taking the consumer to the next level of expertise is really Virgin Vines' responsibility any more than it is Sutter Home's or Ernest & Julio Gallo's.  That's really up to the consumer him/herself, armed with appropriate tools (a reputable wine guide, a knowledgeable salesperson, a trusted friend who knows wine...).

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And that's the same reason I won't go to a butcher who merely labels stuff "meat", or worse yet, "generic animal product". I also don't shop at an auto sales establishment that removes the brand emblems from their vehicles. It clues me in to deeper problems.

If the purveyor looks at my wine as a way for them to make millions, then they can f*** off. I'm a discriminating consumer who has a natural tendency toward intellectualism and curiosity. If they don't pander to that, I'll take my business elsewhere, after making my opinion known. Caveat emptor has a Newton's Third Law side, also (every action has an equal and opposite reaction). Thus, if the buyer was being aware, the seller has less profit, meaning they missed a demographic.

That being said, I'm still not a fan of retardate labels that allow wine to simply be sold under a "plonk" label. I have similar problem with Coors, Anheuser Busch, etc. not putting more on their labels (and that born on crap really pisses me off).

Bottom line is, it's only hip to be dumb because marketers have convinced us of that. What a crock. Makes me want to see if I can market sugar free, fat free, sodium free, calorie free lead-carbonate as an artificial sweetener.

[Raoul Duke]

Surprise! Wine X still lives and adds new depth to descriptives for wine with terms like "Pimpalicious", "So fresh it should have it's mouth washed out with soap" and my favorite "More smoke, herbs and toasted fruit than the Osbournes". How could you not like it.

[Brad Ballinger]

Surprise!  Wine X still lives and adds new depth to descriptives for wine with terms like "Pimpalicious", "So fresh it should have it's mouth washed out with soap" and my favorite "More smoke, herbs and toasted fruit than the Osbournes".    How could you not like it.

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It does? It stopped appearing on newstand shelves here. I would also guess subscriptions are down, but maybe not. The tasting notes were something to love or hate. One could argue they were more about the writer than the wine. But I admired them for what they were attempting to do.

[JohnL]

I think the site is quite clever.

They actually provide legitimate wine terminology then provide "their "cheeky" irreverant version or translation.

One could actually learn something here.

It is clear they are having some fun.

The wine they are selling is probably a basic "crowd pleasing" style.

Their direct competition is probably Yellow tail and Red Bicyclette although I wouldn't be suprised if one entity owned all three!

The fact is there are many levels of wine drinkers and potential wine drinkers.

Some people will respond positively to their message and try the wine-- if it is good they will buy a second time and some of these folks may move on to other wines when they tire of the Virgin stuff.

Its all in the same vein as Nouveau Beaujolais--marketing and product.

(by the way I actually enjoy the Beaujolais--nice and grapey!)

[jsolomon]

How could you not like it.

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I can't even fathom a serious reply to that. Granted, the word "pimp" and its various conjugations rarely enter into my speech, and I'm certain that those conjugations and wine have a very intimately intertwined history.

<snip> Sorry, got carried away here </snip>

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for dirty jokes, double entendres, and plain old grossing out, but peurile third-grade humor I don't think belongs in food descriptions.

And, "Be individual, buy our crap" is one of the largest oxymorons I've ever seen. B.I.H., I say to Virgin Vines.

Edited October 26, 2005 by jsolomon (log)

[Rebel Rose]

I'm kind of on the fence about Wine X. I think it's a refreshing approach, but I also think they try way too hard to be hip and it ends up sounding forced instead of fresh.

Wine Brats suffered from a sense of entitlement. Our winery was one of several local firms that were turned off by the wild, unfocused parties they sponsored. They hustled up wine and winery representatives under the guise of presenting marketing opportunities to a younger set, but made no effort to keep even part of the evening focused on learning about wine or appreciating the product being presented. I heard reports of this happening in more than one city. That had more to do with the organizers than the concept, I imagine.

And while VV's slogan "Unscrew it, let's do it," is catchy I can't see the allure of bashing wine culture to sell wine. Even Miller Lite advertises taste.

What's next?

"Chill and swill"

"Plonk--Everybody gets some tonight"

"Vat to Table--Fresh from France"

[jsolomon]

  Even Miller Lite advertises taste. 

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What would the "Tastes Great!" "Less Filling!" campaign look like in wines?

Yeesh. Contemplation is nearly enough to make me a hermit.

[Rebel Rose]

What would the "Tastes Great!" "Less Filling!" campaign look like in wines?

Yeesh.  Contemplation is nearly enough to make me a hermit.

Why that would be A Little White Lie, wouldn't it?

Do you think all these marketing maneuvers like Virgin Vines and A Little White Lie are more a form of anti-intellectualism than "marketing to women"?

[Vinfidel]

And while VV's slogan "Unscrew it, let's do it," is catchy I can't see the allure of bashing wine culture to sell wine.  Even Miller Lite advertises taste. 

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i think you are not getting the humor of the site. it is cheeky british style humor 'to take the p*ss' as they say out of something

does not mean bashing, it is just a sense of humor about it

i think that wine appreciation needs a real sense of humor

i have been to too many tastings where you have many fine bottles and everyone is silent and solem and serious about it. this is not fun!

wine should be enjoyed in the spirit of mondavi - with friends and families and good humor and good times

not to be so serious as to scare people away

[MarketStEl]

It seems that a lot of wine lovers can not seem to accept the fact that for many people there is no "next step" and the additional fact that this is perfectly fine in the greater scheme of things.

It is similar to the audio nut who can not fathom how 99% of the world's population listens to music on "low fi" systems.

Or, for that matter, a beer connoisseur who finds it astonishing that the vast majority of American beer drinkers quaff brew that, in the words of the joke, is "like making love in a canoe." (Both "are f**king close to water.")

To be honest with you, though, I can empathize with the puzzlement of the beer lovers. There is plenty of good beer out there that costs no more than Budmilloors. (Yuengling Lager, to name one.)

The great thing about wine is it can be enjoyed at so many levels and ,best, it can be enjoyed with others. Enjoying wine--at whatever level--should involve fun.

That enjoyment should be inclusive not exclusive.

Nothing wrong with democratic elitism. In other words, let's recognize that enjoying wine ought not be an academic discipline and not put down those whose reason for drinking it goes no further than "I like it," but at the same time, let's encourage these same people to gain knowledge and sophistication about wine.

VirginVines wine will hopefully be a well made wine and if a lot of folks try it and like it that is a good thing. It would also be nice to see more retail salespersons be able to open a dialog with the people buying VirginVines wine and engage them--"If you like this wine -I have a few other wines you might like...." or "what is it you enjoy about this wine? ...I have some others you might enjoy as well..."

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That would require educated salespeople. That shouldn't be all that difficult to do.

Reading this conversation, I think I share Zinfidel's attitude (which may account for his choice of nickname; he certainly sounds like an apostate in the Church of the Vinifera). The <Philly> addytood </Philly> of the Virgin Vines site is IMO not so much a "we're ignorant and proud of it" one as a "we're not stuffy about enjoying wine" one. (Although, as I stated before, I don't think that pairing wine with food is stuffy.) Yes, this too is an anti-elitist stance--and in that sense characteristically American (and British working class)--but it's not a know-nothing one.

Actually, if you take a look at the capsule descriptions of the various taste profiles on Virgin Wines, you will find similarly casual prose:

"Classic Reds: Restrained, elegant, classy stuff for those who like a bit of tradition in their glass."

"Huge Reds: Powerful reds with a turbo-charged taste engine."

"Full and Fruity Reds: Full-bodied, fruity wines for instant gratification."

"Lunchtime Reds: Light-bodied, fruity wines that won't put you to sleep."

And so on.

Frankly, I find this sort of attitude and approach to learning about wine appealing. I may even go ahead and enroll in Virgin Wines' free 7-day wine course. (Assuming it's open to those living outside the UK, of course.)

[jsolomon]

Actually, if you take a look at the capsule descriptions of the various taste profiles on Virgin Wines, you will find similarly casual prose:

"Classic Reds: Restrained, elegant, classy stuff for those who like a bit of tradition in their glass."

"Huge Reds: Powerful reds with a turbo-charged taste engine."

"Full and Fruity Reds: Full-bodied, fruity wines for instant gratification."

"Lunchtime Reds: Light-bodied, fruity wines that won't put you to sleep."

And so on.

Frankly, I find this sort of attitude and approach to learning about wine appealing.  I may even go ahead and enroll in Virgin Wines' free 7-day wine course.  (Assuming it's open to those living outside the UK, of course.)

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Yes, but they've still got sex and wine intimately intertwined, which still rubs me raw. I'm not saying that there isn't a connection between romance and wine--but it's the same connection as with bread. You know, "a loaf of bread, a jug of wine, and thou".

For wine to be commoditized, some of the sexual pressures over it need to be relaxed, and I don't see them really working toward that end. They just want to either turn it on its ear, where they admit that women have the power with sex, or they just promote the sex and forget about the rest.

Either way, it's still marketing groupthink which cheapens what the caring wineries do to make their wine. If everyone looked at wine the way they look at bread, I'd change my tune, but we're not there yet. And, I don't see this as taking us successfully to that direction.