West Coast Wine Lists

[Rebel Rose]

After several years' of doing marketing junkets with wine brokers and distributors in Los Angeles, the central coast, and San Francisco, I have to say that I am depressed by the complete insensitivity and lack of interest most wine salespeople have toward restaurant themes and menus.

It really came to a head for me during a recent trip to San Fran when my broker (let's call him "Bubba") and I walked into a downtown Italian restaurant where they make all their own pasta from scratch. Naturally I read the menu while we were waiting for the owner. Bubba had sold him our syrah and chardonnay. I started talking food with the owner, really showing an interest in what he was doing with the food--that is the point isn't it? And I suggested our lesser known but excellent sangiovese, and pointed out that the viognier would go well with two specialty dishes. His eyes lit up, he placed orders, and we had a nice visit as well.

The whole day was like this. Hit the ball, drag Bubba. At the end of the day, over dinner in yet another Italian restaurant, he asked me to elaborate on this amazing concept of actually presenting wines that would go with specific foods. I think I can feel pretty confident that he's not reading these forums.

In addition to beating this drum with our own representatives ("think food, think food"), I have done ride-alongs with other sales firms simply because the reps or managers are friends. I have seen restaurant owners turn over management of their entire wine list to one sales rep, simply because she was pretty, charming, and took the time to do it for them. Naturally those lists feature that rep's portfolio almost entirely. Naturally higher end restaurants with a sommelier or knowledgeable wine person on staff will have well chosen selections, but there are many, many restaurants out there that are nice family places, semi-high end, or very popular who do not have that expertise on staff.

Do you ever wonder how some of these wine lists are managed? Do you ever make suggestions to restaurant management? Is this a west coast only problem?

[shelora]

After several years' of doing marketing junkets with wine brokers and distributors in Los Angeles, the central coast, and San Francisco, I have to say that I am depressed by the complete insensitivity and lack of interest most wine salespeople have toward restaurant themes and menus.

It really came to a head for me during a recent trip to San Fran when my broker (let's call him "Bubba") and I walked into a downtown Italian restaurant where they make all their own pasta from scratch.  Naturally I read the menu while we were waiting for the owner.  Bubba had sold him our syrah and chardonnay.  I started talking food with the owner, really showing an interest in what he was doing with the food--that is the point isn't it?  And I suggested our lesser known but excellent sangiovese, and pointed out that the viognier would go well with two specialty dishes.  His eyes lit up, he placed orders, and we had a nice visit as well.

The whole day was like this.  Hit the ball, drag Bubba.  At the end of the day, over dinner in yet another Italian restaurant, he asked me to elaborate on this amazing concept of actually presenting wines that would go with specific foods.  I think I can feel pretty confident that he's not reading these forums.  

In addition to beating this drum with our own representatives ("think food, think food"), I have done ride-alongs with other sales firms simply because the reps or managers are friends.  I have seen restaurant owners turn over management of their entire wine list to one sales rep, simply because she was pretty, charming, and took the time to do it for them.  Naturally those lists feature that rep's portfolio almost entirely.  Naturally higher end restaurants with a sommelier or knowledgeable wine person on staff will have well chosen selections, but there are many, many restaurants out there that are nice family places, semi-high end, or very popular who do not have that expertise on staff.

Do you ever wonder how some of these wine lists are managed?  Do you ever make suggestions to restaurant management?   Is this a west coast only problem?

←

Perhaps the west coast where you are might be a problem but in my experience, food and wine programs are taken very seriously on the west coast of Canada. Many restaurants and hotels work directly with wine reps and wine makers to fine tune a list. While there are some restos up here that are strictly B.C. lists, others include Cascadia selections right on down to California with old world gems thrown in for good measure.

I think you are doing hard but pioneering work in coaxing restaurant owners to include new and interesting wines they might not have considered before.

Maybe you need to take over the whole sales rep/salesperson department and start training them to concentrate on a restaurant's theme. I bet you'd be good at it.

And don't forget to ask for a raise while you're at it!

Edited October 4, 2005 by shelora (log)

[JohnL]

Unfortunately, the restaurant and wine busines is not much different from many other businesses in how they do business.

I always admire restaurants that don't have a sommelier but try to make ordering wine consumer friendly.

For eg--some restaurants will offer by the glass suggestions with dishes on their menu.

Some will organize their wine lists into Reds or whites and then sub categories based on full bodied, medium bodied and light etc.

adding brief descriptions with basic info on the flavor profile is an additional help.

I think these things also help the wait staff to deal with wine selection and service.

I do think that the food and wine pairing thing can easily become overwrought and over bearing and thus intimidating. Most people are looking for a pleasant experience

when they dine out--good food and ,hopefully, nice wine.

Restaurants can overdo things--selecting and ordering wine (and enjoying it) should be painless and easy.--it's good business.

[mike volker]

Mary,

This is hardly a west coast phenomenon, although I think you have it better than we do(at least you make wine thats drinkable). The high end establishments have extensive wine lists that you have to mortgage your oldest child to afford. That segment that you're asking about is usually pretty abismal. Often one rep is willing to print their wine list for them in exchange for monopolizing the list, and I can't tell you how many times I've offered suggestions that are ignored. The last few years we try to go to BYOB's.

Best,

Mike

[Craig Camp]

There is no doubt that the wholesale tier of the three tier system is the weak point when it comes to wine knowledge. For every top wine sales professional out there, there are a dozen who are just there for the job - they could be selling anything. This also applies to the management of these companies. Of course, most of the wine sold is not fine wine, but mass brands and these can be sold by anyone with enough hustle.

Wholesale wine companies with well-trained wine sales professionals (Skurnick in New York, Maverick in Chicago and Henry Wine Group in California to cite just a few examples) often dominate their fine dining wine market, while the mega-distributors flounder and retreat to the grocery stores and chain restaurants. Their usual solution to this inability to enter the fine dining market is to buy up smaller wine companies, which they then quickly destroy by corrupting their fine wine culture. They never understand that if the sales representative on the street does not have a passion for fine wines, they will never be able to sell them. Hustle is not enough to sell small production wines with distinctive personality, it takes knowledge and passion to tell their story.

The best fine wine salespeople share the passion and see the vision of the winemaker. They drink wine at home and match it with fine food as these things are something they love and it shows in their work. While you can train someone in good sales technique, you can't give them this passion for food and wine if they don't have it.

[Brad Ballinger]

I have seen restaurant owners turn over management of their entire wine list to one sales rep, simply because she was pretty, charming, and took the time to do it for them.  Naturally those lists feature that rep's portfolio almost entirely.  Naturally higher end restaurants with a sommelier or knowledgeable wine person on staff will have well chosen selections, but there are many, many restaurants out there that are nice family places, semi-high end, or very popular who do not have that expertise on staff.

Do you ever wonder how some of these wine lists are managed?  Do you ever make suggestions to restaurant management?  Is this a west coast only problem?

←

I would agree with Mike and Craig that this is not a West Coast phenomenon. For some restaurant owners, a wine list can be a cash cow no matter what is on it. But anyone "managing" the wine list will have to consider what types or labels of wine will people buy and what they will pay for them. If the labels or types aren't recognized by Joe and Jane Diner, will the staff be knowledgeable enough to help the customer? In many instances, the pretty and charming sales rep will also offer to train the staff.

There are many aspects to running a restaurant. I don't think wine is ever (or should ever be) at the top of the list -- and I know you're not saying that. For every one of us that may factor in a restaurant's wine list (or BYO-friendliness) when deciding whether or not to darken their door, there are probably 20 others for whom it's little more than an afterthought.

[jsolomon]

I always admire restaurants that don't have a sommelier but try to make ordering wine consumer friendly.

For eg--some restaurants will offer by the glass suggestions with dishes on their menu.

Some will organize their wine lists into Reds or whites and then sub categories based on full bodied, medium bodied and light etc.

adding brief descriptions with basic info on the flavor profile is an additional help.

←

Do you still admire them when they get it wrong? Here in Nebraska, there are a couple of places that do this sort of thing that I've got to, but most of the places get it obfuscated. If it isn't completely obfuscated, they highlight the less important (to my selection criteria) flavor profiles that make choosing the wine yet another unenlightened shot in the dark.

What it really seems like is that they try to make a broad selection from the wholesaler, and then attempt to shoehorn in their wine purchases. It's not exactly an optimal situation, but it's vaguely workable now that I have some experience with wine and am not prepared to be bullied about my wine choice.

[jsolomon]

The whole day was like this.  Hit the ball, drag Bubba.  At the end of the day, over dinner in yet another Italian restaurant, he asked me to elaborate on this amazing concept of actually presenting wines that would go with specific foods.  I think I can feel pretty confident that he's not reading these forums. 

In addition to beating this drum with our own representatives ("think food, think food")

←

If Bubba Co. is hiring, I'm looking! I already think food... and dessert. Dessert is very important.

[DRColby]

My wife and I are about to leave on a two month cruise and I wanted to take a case of mixed wine with us.

What I didn't have in my cellar, which was mainly lacking in whites, I asked a friend with a high end restaurant in Seattle to help me fill.

This guy's wines rock. I come out with a Tabalis Creek (sp) Rhone white, couple of great German Rieslings a central coast pinot noir and a Burgundy. But my buddy has a Dutch stewart and his matches with food are perfect.

Would I rather have this than the $15 of "house wine" on the cruise ship? You bet!

it's the people, not the area or the wines.

Dave

[Rebel Rose]

For every one of us that may factor in a restaurant's wine list (or BYO-friendliness) when deciding whether or not to darken their door, there are probably 20 others for whom it's little more than an afterthought.

That's true. But isn't it sad when you have a winery offering an Italianate varietal or blend, or wines that pair well with pasta dishes and fish (and you're selling them in a seafood city) and your own salesmen can't think beyond the bread and butter wines? I'm not criticizing the restaurateurs. I'm saying they are not being served well by our own industry. Or to be more precise, the middlemen between the wine and food industries are thinking of themselves as mere salesmen when they have the potential to be facilitators.

Our winery is represented by individual brokers and boutique distributors--not behemoths like Southern Wine and Spirits. So we're actually very fortunate. I'm not thinking of this as our problem, per se, but as a disconnect within our industry.

In many instances, the pretty and charming sales rep will also offer to train the staff.

Which is another reason I started thinking about this from a consumer's viewpoint. Yes, that pretty rep with the grist to take the time will win those accounts. But once she does, the restaurant staff will be thoroughly trained in one distributor's portfolio. At that point, the owner/manager doesn't want to rock the boat. She's spoiled him with attention, perhaps offered multi-case discounts, and made sure the wines are easily reordered and replenished each week (restaurants don't have a lot of storage space for wine, so on time deliveries are important). Believe me, I want our sales reps doing the same for us. But I don't feel it serves the public well.

What you end up with are Italian family restaurants with artisan food but no good Italian wines or varietals, and barbecue joints with big, jammy zins but not a single pinot noir.

I think Craig really nailed the situation. You've got to have reps that have a true passion for wine and an understanding of how wines go with food. But selling wine is a hard living--commission-based, lots of driving, trying to sell a product to a chef or restaurant owner that doesn't, in their minds, have anything directly to do with their product. So reps come and go, as frequently as restaurant staff.

Another odd thing is that most wineries really value good restaurant placements.

Sometimes even more than critical scores.

So why does this broken current between winery -> dining -> consumer continue to exist?

PS. Thanks for the compliment, shelora. I'll be sure to promote myself. Unfortunately it sounds like more work for the same pay. At least I get paid in wine.

[JohnL]

Some time ago I was responsible for a sales force (the product was not food or wine related). If given the choice of someone who was a passionate advocate for the product or someone who was a great sales person (the two are often not the same).

In my experience--I would hire the great sales person.

As I see it, the mission of a wholesaler (of anything) is to sell.

In an ideal world the passion for the product and the salesmanship would go hand in hand--in reality they usually do not.

I know a CFO of one of a major corporation that owns many wineries. She likes wine but is not really very knowledgable about it nor is she an enophile. She is a financial wizzard and is passionate about finance--this is the key to her success, not a love or passion for wine.

Having said this, I think the critical element here is the customer of the wholesaler--the restaurant.

Customers drive ninety per cent (or more) of the sales process and it is the customer who truely is "king." Therefore, until restaurants put wine and wine service in proper perspective (or any perspective at all), wholesalers and wineries are not going to have much impact. They will be fighting an uphill battle.

And guess what will drive restaurants attitudes toward wine?

Their customers! The dining public.

Sales and sales trends tend to work from the bottom up the chain rather than top down.

So, based on consumer attitudes towards wine and wine service, restaurants will respond and demand more from wholesalers who in turn will make demands on wineries.

Edited October 5, 2005 by JohnL (log)

[jsolomon]

As I see it, the mission of a wholesaler (of anything) is to sell.

In an ideal world the passion for the product and the salesmanship would go hand in hand--in reality they usually do not.

←

In a low-markup, cut-throat market, I agree with you. When your margins are razor-thin, you need volume.

However, when I go somewhere like a dedicated wine shop, or an upscale restaurant, I go there for a higher level of knowledge, service, and care in all aspects of my restaurant experience.

Here's my question of you, JohnL. The simplistic situation is that you markup all of your wines the same percentage. Salesperson 1 sells 5x the units of salesperson 2, but the wines salesperson 1 sells are 1/5 the price. So, they make you the same money. Salesperson 1 gets perfunctory business thank-you cards to your business. Salesperson 2 gets heartfelt thanks from the people he/she sells to.

You have to lay one of the two off.

Who do you lay off?

[Carolyn Tillie]

Rose, I would seriously question your distributor/salesman. Most of the distributors I work with operate as you do and selling the wine to restaurants through their food is second nature. Please don't take this wrong, but I'm wondering if I have just had different experiences because the selling of Napa wine is possibly more competitive? I was shocked when I read your account as there are actual training camps here in Napa, instructing salespeople in the art of food and wine pairing -- it is all art of the biz.

Just pondering out loud...

[JohnL]

As I see it, the mission of a wholesaler (of anything) is to sell.

In an ideal world the passion for the product and the salesmanship would go hand in hand--in reality they usually do not.

←

In a low-markup, cut-throat market, I agree with you. When your margins are razor-thin, you need volume.

However, when I go somewhere like a dedicated wine shop, or an upscale restaurant, I go there for a higher level of knowledge, service, and care in all aspects of my restaurant experience.

Here's my question of you, JohnL. The simplistic situation is that you markup all of your wines the same percentage. Salesperson 1 sells 5x the units of salesperson 2, but the wines salesperson 1 sells are 1/5 the price. So, they make you the same money. Salesperson 1 gets perfunctory business thank-you cards to your business. Salesperson 2 gets heartfelt thanks from the people he/she sells to.

You have to lay one of the two off.

Who do you lay off?

←

I assume the "units" are different wines.

I can not answer until you tell me how many of each type of wine I must sell over time.

I know where you are going here--and I believe I agree with the point you are trying to make.

However,

My salesforce in their technique, demeanor and their approach will be determined, in large part, by what my customers demand/and or respond to.

So this is not really about high end salespeople vs low end.

If I am really good, there will be a certain amount of anticipation in knowing my customers and thus, correctly predicting their needs.

There are a number of idiosynchratic sellers who take a "my way or the highway" approach to selling their products but these folks are only in business because their products are in such demand that the buyers desire for the product is strong enough. There are myriad cases where when these folks products fell out of demand they changed their selling approach radically!

My whole point is that the customer is king and the selling practices will always be "attuned" to satisfying them. If diners demand interesting wines at fair prices then restaurants will demand them and wholesalers will supply them and winemakers will make them.

The marketplace drives the market!

(I am being somewhat simplistic here and there are a lot of exceptions to the rule).

[Rebel Rose]

Believe me, I did question him, and nearly let him go. We decided to stay with Bubba because our accounts--the retailers and wine bars--in San Francisco love him. He is very attentive to our accounts otherwise. He is lovable, just sort of a gooberhead when it comes to food. Unfortunately, it's not the only experience that we, and other wineries from all over, have with salespeople.

Outside of Napa (Paso Robles, Santa Barbara, Santa Ynez, Santa Maria, Edna Valley, Arroyo Grande, etc.) wineries do this sort of outreach and training themselves. And I'm not talking about the type of restaurants that carry $200 bottles--I'm talking about great family restaurants and small ethnic places that could have interesting wine lists but don't. So like I said before, it's not a huge problem for us, it's just something I've observed about the industry as a whole.

What amazes me is this disconnect for many people that wine is wine, and food is food.

I agree with John. I'd like to see more consumers suggesting varietals that actually go with their food. But I think our industry could also do a better job of communicating with restaurants than through a constantly changing sales force.

[JohnL]

A good friend of mine was a wine nut--he got laid off from an advertising job.

He decided to change careers!

What he did was approach a small Chinese restaurant he thought served good food but had little or no wine list to speak of.

He approached the owners and told them he would work for free if they allowed him to take over their wine service.

He made up a list--ordered the wines--and became the "sommelier"--the deal was he would increase their profits via wine sales and trhen if he delivered they would pay him.

My friend was off and running and now owns a very fine eclectic wine shop in New jersey.

The point is he had to change perceptions of both the restaurant owners and the customers creating demand on two levels.

This is very difficult and can be costly (remember he worked for free for a while).

An almost impossible task even at this small scale level.

So the motivation was profits but there was a lot of work involved.

Now, it would have been easier had more and more customers come in asking for wine with dinner and looking for more choices.

The demand woould have been there.

The more people are aware of food and dining out and cooking and eating etc. wine can only win in the long run.

This is why the Food Network is good as are all the other cooking/food related shows on TV as well as other media.

As awareness grows,demand grows, the restaurateurs, the wine wholesalers, the wine makers who are prepared and have good selling practicews in place will win as well.

The problem is, wine is lagging behind food in this revolution.

Another story:

A restaurant on Nantucket my wife and I love (soon to open in NY City as well) is Sfoglia. They serve rustic italian food and they also sell a lot of wine.

What their wine list consists of is a limited/manageable number of Italian regional wines at prices that range from $20-$70 a bottle with most in the $30 area.

The glasses are simple juice glasses--thick and thus not very breakable. Totally unpretentious in keeping with the menu and the decor. You almost cannot NOT order

a bottle with dinner.

I think we may start to see more restaurants like this which will help the demand for less expensive wines with character--I believe that the reason we are seeing more better quality Italian wines (especially whites) is there is a growing demand for less expensive wines and the Italian winemakers have cleaned up their act and are making better wines.

In the end it is incredibly expensive and time consuming for a winery or a wholesaler to impact the restaurant business--yes there are success storied here. But it is easier and less expensive to individual wine makers and wholesalers for the market to change and to be on the leading edge of that change.

Edited October 5, 2005 by JohnL (log)

[Brad Ballinger]

So why does this broken current between winery -> dining -> consumer continue to exist?

←

At the risk of oversimplifying, consider the U.S. experience with that of other countries that produce wine. If I go to a restaurant in Champagne, for example, I'm going to see a wine list that is predominantly Champagne. If I live in the area, I'm going to recognize many labels because I probably know or know of the person whos name is on the label. Same goes for Alsace, Loire, the Pfalz in Germany, Alto Adige in Italy, Penedes in Spain, and in Moldova, I'm going to know who made the Cricova.

Of course it will be different in Paris, Rome, Berlin, and to a lesser extent Madrid. But even there, I'm probably still going to know what the wines from the different regions will be like (a nod to that terroir thing).

And, if I'm a resident of Europe, I've grown up with wine at damn near every meal.

And, if I'm operating a restaurant in many places (not all) in Europe, the money I'm making on wine is more from volume than margin. You want to charge me how many euro for Pierre's Champagne? Forget it. I'll go see Pierre myself.

So how is it different in the U.S.? We don't have much "local" or "regional" wine. For many, there's no difference between the terms California, Napa Valley, or orisoli Vineyard. Wine isn't a normal part of a meal at home, and not even in most of the restaurants most of the public frequents. And profits from wine in U.S. restaurants are more margin-based than volume-based. And margins (and a bit of volume) are higher with wines that cost less. And those wines that cost less are being sold by the pretty and charming salesperson who works for the big wholesaler.

And If I'm in the U.S. and don't like the price on the list, I can go to the retailer. But that's not the same as going to Pierre. In fact, in the U.S. Peter will charge me more than the retailer half the time.

Okay, I know that's oversimplifying it. At the same time, though, it's more than firing Bubba.

[Craig Camp]

1. If given the choice of someone who was a passionate advocate for the product or someone who was a great sales person (the two are often not the same).

In my experience--I would hire the great sales person.

2. As I see it, the mission of a wholesaler (of anything) is to sell.

In an ideal world the passion for the product and the salesmanship would go hand in hand--in reality they usually do not.

1. If you are looking for someone to sell Rutherford Hill Merlot I could not agree more. However, if you need someone to sell Dover Canyon Sangiovese passion and knowledge wins out over sales skills. If you need to move boxes hire a sales ace, if the quality of your placements is more important than the quantity hire a passionate wine person.

2. This is why small wine producers should avoid big wholesalers like the plague. If a company's mission is only to sell, my 200 case lots of single vineyard pinot noirs are not very interesting to them. In fact, small allocations are more an irritation to a major wholesaler than an asset.

Edited October 5, 2005 by Craig Camp (log)

[ludja]

... I come out with a Tabalis Creek (sp) Rhone white, couple of great German Rieslings a central coast pinot noir and a Burgundy. 

...

←

Tablas Creek Vineyard (located in western Paso Robles, as is Dover Canyon Winery)

[JohnL]

Brad-

You have touched on an important fact. In Europe, wine production is regional and regional wines are drunk regionally. Until recently that is.

As markets open up to wine from all over the world and there is less "protection" for local wines. All wines will have to compete for wine drinkers on more or less equal footing.

This is a major (maybe the prime) reason for all the anti-globalization of wine feeling (Mondovino, etc) it is all about turf (or terroir!). We in America have more choices than probably anywhere else in the world when it comes to wine. (this is changing). For eg those inexpensive Italian white wines are now turning up on lists as alternatives to similarly priced domestic chardonnays. The response from California for eg has been an increasing number of white Rhone varietal blends and other interesting wines.

For the Italians, they are competing both at home and abroad--not long ago, many of these wines were drunk close to home with no competition.

In the end, growers and negociants restaurants, and most important consumers win out.

Craig, you are correct IMOP.

However, what mary's original post indicated, was that sales are often about things other than passion for the product. In an ideal world, we would have salespersons who loved the products they sold and buyers who bought them because they loved them as well.

This is not all that prevalent, unfortunately. I have found that great salesmanship is a natural gift in and of itself. Often a great salesperson will be more succesful than the passionate advocate. Their focus is on closing a sale and they will find a way to get it done. (if need be they will be "passionate advocates.")

The passionate advocate has nothing but their passion --and think about it, everywine maker is passionate--so why is one more succesful selling than another.

You are right about attention to the product. A small winery may be better off with a small (or no) distributor. Someone who "believes" in the wine. Unfortunately, this also cuts both ways as a large distributor can take his/her clout and get your wine sold. In the end though, isn't the real goal to get your wine into the hands of the consumer--people who will drink and enjoy your product from a restaurant list or at retail?

It really should be about how to get there.

As a consumer--I would think that, if you can get to retailers directly and better if you can get to me --even better--without the middlemen--there are IMOP too many layers between the wine maker and me!

[jsolomon]

Craig, you are correct IMOP.

However, what mary's original post indicated, was that sales are often about things other than passion for the product. In an ideal world, we would have salespersons who loved the products they sold and buyers who bought them because they loved them as well.

←

I would that this were not so true. It reminds me of the BetaMax vs VHS wars. There are many technically superior things on the market than most of the wines I find in the restaurants I go to, even at the same price point. But, due to laziness, ignorance, neglect, or any of a number of reasons, the industrial wines and the kool-aid wines I see again and again are inferior, but better recognized.

As a consumer--I would think that, if you can get to retailers directly and better if you can get to me --even better--without the middlemen--there are IMOP too many layers between the wine maker and me!

←

That works for small economies, but not economies of scale, so you would go back a couple of hundred years in either size, or distribution, I think. Not that this wouldn't be bad if you had good producers available for everyone, but there would still be grand disparities in a system like this (at least given the current market pressures).