Upstairs At Bouley Bakery & Market

[Sneakeater]

I just got back from dinner at Franny's in Brooklyn. The pre-tax-and-tip bill was EXACTLY THE SAME as I remember its being at Upstairs at Bouley.

This almost makes me think I misremembered -- or even worse, misread -- the bill at Upstairs (I hope I didn't seriously undertip -- I thought I was overtipping I bit). But what if I didn't? What does that say about what kind of value Upstairs is? (Even if everyone -- including its biggest fans, like me -- agrees that Franny's is somewhat overpriced.)

Edited June 25, 2006 by Sneakeater (log)

[docsconz]

I just got back from dinner at Franny's in Brooklyn.  The pre-tax-and-tip bill was EXACTLY THE SAME as I remember its being at Upstairs at Bouley.

This almost makes me think I misremembered -- or even worse, misread -- the bill at Upstairs (I hope I didn't seriously undertip -- I thought I was overtipping I bit).  But what if I didn't?  What does that say about what kind of value Upstairs is?  (Even if everyone -- including its biggest fans, like me -- agrees that Franny's is somewhat overpriced.)

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While not cheap, Bouley Upstairs is a good value as you say. Was Bouley cooking when you were there?

[Sneakeater]

No.

[Todd36]

I've eaten here twice. Their sushi is actually quite good, and the sushi assortment at around $30 or so is a good value, its better than almost any place in town at that price point. I haven't had anything bad, and I think I've had around 10 dishes from the menu. Were they featuring the Italian menu when you went? It had some new dishes and I saw it about ten days ago. The halibut is quite good, as other people have mentioned. It's not transdecent though, I 've had better in NY, for more money and in a much smaller size. It is not a place for dessert. They have good sake, but I can take you to plenty of places with an equally good selection. I like this place quite a bit.

[Sneakeater]

1. Yes they had the Italian menu.

2. I know that lots of places have better sake selections. (I mean, a LOT better: Upstairs only has, what, six?) I was only commenting on the one particular sake I ordered.

3. I agree that the halibut isn't transcendent. Nothing I've had there (in two visits) has been transcendent. I don't expect transcendent everytime I eat out. I don't even WANT transcendent every time I eat out. At any rate, I certainly don't expect transcendent (from a mainstream, non-ethnic restaurant) at Upstairs's relatively modest prices.

Edited June 25, 2006 by Sneakeater (log)

[docsconz]

1.  Yes they had the Italian menu.

2.  I know that lots of places have better sake selections.  (I mean, a LOT better:  Upstairs only has, what, six?)  I was only commenting on the one particular sake I ordered.

3.  I agree that the halibut isn't transcendent.  Nothing I've had there (in two visits) has been transcendent.  I don't expect transcendent everytime I eat out.  I don't even WANT transcendent every time I eat out.  At any rate, I certainly don't expect transcendent (from a mainstream, non-ethnic restaurant) at Upstairs's relatively modest prices.

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It may not be transcendant, but it is satisfying.

[Sneakeater]

Exactly.

[Sneakeater]

It's interesting. Bouley aims at transcendence, and, too much of the time, misses. Upstairs aims lower (for much less of a price) and nails it.

[docsconz]

The thing about BU is that it is not in the least pretentious. It serves very good food at a reasonable price. it is a bonus when DB himself is cooking, not necessarily because the food is better, but because of the evident TLC.

[Sneakeater]

Again:

Exactly.

[Sneakeater]

I don't know if this thread is the place for it, but you could get into a very interesting discussion of the differences between Upstairs and Cafe Gray, and why Upstairs succeeds as a toned-down (not the word I'm looking for, but I can't grasp the right word right now) haute cuisine place and Cafe Gray doesn't. Price isn't all of it.

Edited June 26, 2006 by Sneakeater (log)

[Todd36]

Upstairs feels like dining in a bar, literally. A bar with very good food.

[Sneakeater]

The Cafe Gray thread is actually very interesting, because you can see people struggling over time to deal with that restaurant and what is wrong with it. Just as an example, Fat Guy posited early on that people were having trouble with Cafe Gray because it was Gray Kunz's "second" restaurant at a time when Kunz didn't/doesn't have a "first". I think Fat Guy realized over time that that's not the problem. In fact, Cafe Gray would probably look like a worse value if Kunz had a "first" restaurant running.

Anyway (there is a point to this), a comparison that was made early on in that thread was between Cafe Gray and L'Atelier Robouchon. I've never been to L'Atelier in Paris (and am eagerly but apprehensivley awaiting the opening in New York [since I have a sinking feeling the New York branch is going to get it wrong]), but based on what I've read L'Atelier bears no resemblence to Cafe Gray. It sounds more like . . . Upstairs at Bouley Bakery & Market. The food is simplified from Robouchon's three-star fare (OK: Bouley's top restaurant no longer is top-star-rated). And the restaurant itself is simplified to almost a food bar (as Todd described Upstairs). But in a very tasteful way, that focuses you on the food. And, of course, the food -- while not cheap -- is significantly cheaper than the three-star food was.

That well describes Upstairs. Cafe Gray, though, is very different. It's not a tasteful, stripped-down venue, but a tasteless, overly glitzy venue. And while we don't know what Gray Kunz would now be charging at a "first" restaurant, the food at Cafe Gray is, simply put, expensive, in a way the food at Upstairs isn't, and that the room and service at Cafe Gray don't support.

What bugs me the most about this comparison is that I actually prefer the food at Cafe Gray to the food at Upstairs. But there's no question that I prefer going to Upstairs.

Edited June 26, 2006 by Sneakeater (log)

[Todd36]

Cafe Grey is misnamed and I think the early PR effort was misguided, and some of it is still hanging around, creating a false image. Cafe Grey looks like a glitazy three star restaurant and is priced like one. According to their web site, the prix fix is gone. The dinner menu is expensive by any standard, the cheapest starter on the current web menu is $19, while the cheapest main is $36. The starters seem to be more expensive than Bouley ala carte (I mean regular Bouley), and mains are at roughly the same price point. Calling Cafe Grey a "cafe" is like calling the Breakers a "cottage". It's simply not accurate. Upstairs at Bouley can add up. However, it's possible to have a burger and a beer there, with tax and tip, for less than $25. You can have 2 starters and a main upstairs for less than $50, with tax and tip, and you may have enough left for a beer. Upstairs is a very small, informal place, you can see the guy washing dishes. To me, it's a bar with very good food and it is priced very competivity.

Edited June 27, 2006 by Todd36 (log)

[Sneakeater]

Not that this is at all on-topic for this thread, or important, or that I want to start an argument with you, but I don't t think Cafe Gray looks like a three-star restaurant. I think it's glitzy, but in a sort of cheap (in terms of taste, not expense), unsophisticated (and noisy and crowded) way. To put it charitably, it looks like it's trying to be "fun." I think that's a big part of its problem. It has this decor that leads you to expect not-that-complicated, not-that-expensive food, yet they serve three-star food at three-star prices. As I said, I don't think the room can support the prices.

So I think the room looks (and feels) JUST like a cafe. That's a big part of the problem. It LOOKS like a cafe. It FEELS like a cafe. It has a cafe's level of service. But they serve high-end restaurant food at high-end restaurant prices. You can't appreciate the food in that setting, and the prices are way out of line for the level of comfort and service you get.

Edited June 28, 2006 by Sneakeater (log)

[murkcury]

Had dinner at Upstairs tonight and wanted to comment on the meal and respond to one of the above comparisons. First, the meal.

I had only been by during the day and never experienced the space at night. It's really crowded. And loud. Literally, elbow to elbow. Oh yeah, it's a little warm too, especially when they seat you next to the stove. Seems like they intentionally opted for a quieter hood system. Frankly, I might have preferred the noise of a functional hood to the inane conversation in my right ear...anyway, I digress. The food was good. Nothing great, but satisfying at the price point. Bread service, however, was excellent. Four different types (that we sampled) but I enviously spotted a couple of different breads at adjoining tables. Olive/herb loaf, poppy seed, levain, dried fruit. Incredibly fresh, good crust and impressive depth of flavor. A highlight of the evening.

Started with chicken liver tartine/crostini and calamari salad. Calamari was done on the plancha (my favorite way to enjoy squid) and had the nice char and chewiness that one would expect. Served with mixed greens and avocado. Needed more salt and acid. Chicken livers were fine. Cognac, raisins, herbs (aforementioned bread). No complaints. For mains my friend and I had the halibut with shiitakes, hon-shimeijis and corn in a lemon-thyme sauce as well as the bigoli with CT Berkshire pork ragu. The halibut was straight-forward, but good. Mushrooms were nice and earthy but the corn (shouldn't this be peak season?) was kind of lost in the mix. I was looking forward to a sweeter, more assertive presence. The ragu was pleasant but not exactly what I was expecting. The pasta was perfectly cooked and the ragu, which was enhanced by a scattering of chanterelles, was fine, but it was sausage. Here I had foolishly been looking forward to an interesting mix of tasty local porcine parts. Actually, in retrospect, that's what I received, but in ground form. A little more honesty in the description would have been welcome.

I was a little taken aback by the wine list. For an informal and inexepensive restaurant (at least as far as the food goes) the wine offerings were rather obscene. Very few bottles under $50. Almost no half-bottles. Weak selection by the glass. Even the cocktails were grossly overpriced at approx. $14 a piece. Having just come from Pegu Club there was no way I paying as much for a mediocre drink as I was for my entree. So, while the food was good and the prices more than reasonable (portion sizes were also more than adequate) the wines/spirits were a joke. Oh, and they really push the wine. I must have been asked by at least three servers and the host if I wanted to order wine (I did, and I regretted it). Can't even understand why a restaurant with 20 seats needs that many servers. Oh well, I might go back if I knew it would be quieter. It would also be fun to see the man himself at the stoves.

As for the comparison of Upstairs and L'Atelier, it's rather off the mark. Yes, they both share a similar concept with the open kitchen, but that's about it. At L'Atelier the kitchen is THE focal point of the experience. The restaurant is literally built around the kitchen (yes, the NY Atelier is slightly different in that it offers table service but the spirit is the same). At Upstairs the kitchen is just kind of there. Also, the food at Upstairs will never be confused with the food at Bouley. It's really basic and stripped down. Is it good? Yes. But it's not fine dining. Not even close. At L'Atelier, while the food certainly isn't as involved as the food of Jamin or the Mansion, it isn't that far from what one would expect of a fine-dining restaurant. The components are pared down, but the quality, flavor, presentation and artistry are still there. Oh yeah, it's also about three times as expensive. Just different entities altogether.

[Fat Guy]

This is recognizably David Bouley food.  You'd know it was his if you were led into the place blindfolded and had the dishes put before you, with no further information. 

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I agree that much of the food is recognizably Bouley food. This does not, however, mean that identifying it as such would be the basis for a confident prediction that it came from a Bouley restaurant. There's Bouley food being served all over the city and all across North America. He's one of a handful of the most influential chefs in the world, having mentored generations of up-and-comers. When Brian Bistrong was at Citarella, I recognized Bouley food there. I'd be very interested to see you dine at Rafael Gonzalez's place in Vancouver with that blindfold on. Most of these disciples, like Doug Psaltis, have layered subsequent influences over the Bouley influence, but almost unanimously they'll tell you that David Bouley is one of the world's greatest chefs. He's often referred to, appropriately I think, as the Joel Robuchon of America (he trained with, among others, Robuchon and Giraret, but Kunz is the Girardet of America -- though Bouley is Connecticut born and Kunz is Swiss by way of Asia).

David Bouley has been at this a long time. Since he started at Montrachet in 1985 and spearheaded the TriBeCa restaurant revolution, he has been an amazing force. From 1987 through 1996, when the original Bouley restaurant was in business, it was widely thought to be one of the best restaurants in North America, if not the best for several of those years especially the early 1990s. To me, the most startling thing about David Bouley's cooking, tasted today, is how absolutely contemporary and alive it is. I can think of no other chef who, more than twenty years after establishing classic status, is still on the cutting edge in every way.

Upstairs is a telling illustration of this phenomenon. It feels to me like the restaurant of the future. I don't see it as "three star food in a no-star setting" -- that sort of obsession with stars, unfortunately ubiquitous in New York restaurant discussions, utterly misses the point of Upstairs. This is post-star dining. The setting is exactly what it wants to be -- it's targeted at a specific, young, downtown, sophisticated audience, and they don't see it as a "no-star setting." They see it as the way they want to eat in this millennium. They'd rather be in that setting on any given night than at Per Se. David Bouley has tapped into the main artery of the downtown Gen X plus Y foodie culture. Every chef from Vancouver to Virginia needs to visit Upstairs to see the restaurant of the future done right.

Last night, Jim Pechous was working the pass. He dates to the original Bouley -- that's the spelling they gave me -- and his title is chef de cuisine. Flanked by two assistants and backed by a diswasher, he cooked most every sauce and plated most every dish except what came out of the sushi bar. Having dined at the various incarnations of Bouley dozens of times, I can say with confidence that Chef Jim channels Bouley with uncanny accuracy.

There were minor service hiccups, if you measure service by inapplicable standards. Upstairs has a decentralized and relatively egalitarian service model that inserts the customer into the action. Again, it's startling how young everybody is -- it's as though David Bouley has found a fountain of youth for restaurant staff. Everybody working there has immense regard for David Bouley, but it's not the cult-like worship one sees around Charlie Trotter or Thomas Keller. Bouley is a more tragic figure -- he's a human chef, he's the Mets to Keller's Yankees. He inspires a different kind of loyalty.

The greeting was friendly. We were told it would be about half an hour and that we could wait in the bakery or on the floor below where they have a few seats. They sent us away with a cocktail menu and a few minutes later a bartender came by to take a drink order. They have a few good beers, sakes and sparkling wines -- more than sufficient for the purpose, though not by any means a fantastic list (as mentioned uptopic, the wine list sucks and has no good bottles in the $30-$40 range, where it should have 20+ good bottles given the restaurant's approach -- someone needs to revamp the wine program). Communication between floors was accomplished by enthusiastic young servers running up and down and keeping each other updated. We got the best table in the place -- the corner overlooking West Broadway and Duane -- a wonderful perch for three people.

The menu is large, which is impressive given how small the kitchen is and how much a la minute cooking goes on -- every sauce made to order, very few prepped items visible. Anybody who can man this kitchen, well, man who can catch fly with chopstick can do anything.

We asked our server if Jim would just cook for us and, after clearing it with the chef our server said sure. We started with a plate of blue point oysters with three sauces, all very restrained so as to enhance rather than ruin the oysters. Next, four shrimp in a wonderfully bitter and peppery broth with radicchio. The most beautifully cooked piece of cod in a semi-smooth pool of peas, with little bits of what might have been prosciutto. A huge scallop served over brie cheese with currants -- a combination I've never experienced before in an haute dish and hope to experience many more times. The one misstep: an overcooked piece of caraway-crusted swordfish with brussels sprouts. I get the intended point of the dish but it wasn't successful at making it. Recovery with a small lamb chop and three slices of loin with potato puree, zucchini-mint sauce and the best lamb demi-glace I've ever had (though I think it might have been demi-glace in name only -- it tasted like it was possibly a straight reduction, though I'm not sure). Then some desserts, not fabulous but good, especially a chocolate mousse brulee and a fruit soup with lots of chunks of citrus in it. They charged $75 for the tasting. They'll only do it if they're not slammed, and the price isn't firm -- you've got to be flexible.

Lousy coffee and, much to my shock and chagrin, a very poor bread service. What's up with that? The bakery downstairs makes some of the best bread in town. They should be taking much more advantage of that situation. A bountiful, diverse bread basket is a no-brainer.

[Nathan]

This is recognizably David Bouley food.  You'd know it was his if you were led into the place blindfolded and had the dishes put before you, with no further information. 

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The setting is exactly what it wants to be -- it's targeted at a specific, young, downtown, sophisticated audience, and they don't see it as a "no-star setting." They see it as the way they want to eat in this millennium. They'd rather be in that setting on any given night than at Per Se. David Bouley has tapped into the main artery of the downtown Gen X plus Y foodie culture.

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Speaking as a downtown Gen X'er, I'm not sure this is true. I don't know that anyone prefers the uncomfortable setting at Bouley Upstairs over Per Se. What we prefer is its price point over Per Se. Alinea would be a more appropriate comparison (it has a considerably younger demographic than Per Se, at a similar price point).....so would WD-50 to some extent.

edit: To make my point clear, the price has everything to do with the popularity of Bouley Upstairs. Everything.

Edited February 20, 2007 by Nathan (log)

[Sneakeater]

It feels to me like the restaurant of the future. I don't see it as "three star food in a no-star setting" -- that sort of obsession with stars, unfortunately ubiquitous in New York restaurant discussions, utterly misses the point of Upstairs. This is post-star dining. The setting is exactly what it wants to be -- it's targeted at a specific, young, downtown, sophisticated audience, and they don't see it as a "no-star setting." They see it as the way they want to eat in this millennium. They'd rather be in that setting on any given night than at Per Se. David Bouley has tapped into the main artery of the downtown Gen X plus Y foodie culture. Every chef from Vancouver to Virginia needs to visit Upstairs to see the restaurant of the future done right.

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Ummmm yeah.

[Sneakeater]

This is recognizably David Bouley food.  You'd know it was his if you were led into the place blindfolded and had the dishes put before you, with no further information. 

←

The setting is exactly what it wants to be -- it's targeted at a specific, young, downtown, sophisticated audience, and they don't see it as a "no-star setting." They see it as the way they want to eat in this millennium. They'd rather be in that setting on any given night than at Per Se. David Bouley has tapped into the main artery of the downtown Gen X plus Y foodie culture.

←

Speaking as a downtown Gen X'er, I'm not sure this is true. I don't know that anyone prefers the uncomfortable setting at Bouley Upstairs over Per Se. What we prefer is its price point over Per Se. Alinea would be a more appropriate comparison (it has a considerably younger demographic than Per Se, at a similar price point).....so would WD-50 to some extent.

edit: To make my point clear, the price has everything to do with the popularity of Bouley Upstairs. Everything.

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I'm not a Gen X'er, but I think there's a definite preference for less fancy/less ritualistic dining experiences. Even among us Boomers.

That doesn't mean anyone likes Upstairs's uncomfortable aspects. But I'll tell you what. I find Upstairs more congenial, as an experience, than Bouley. And I doubt I'm alone in that.

[Nathan]

This is recognizably David Bouley food.  You'd know it was his if you were led into the place blindfolded and had the dishes put before you, with no further information. 

←

The setting is exactly what it wants to be -- it's targeted at a specific, young, downtown, sophisticated audience, and they don't see it as a "no-star setting." They see it as the way they want to eat in this millennium. They'd rather be in that setting on any given night than at Per Se. David Bouley has tapped into the main artery of the downtown Gen X plus Y foodie culture.

←

Speaking as a downtown Gen X'er, I'm not sure this is true. I don't know that anyone prefers the uncomfortable setting at Bouley Upstairs over Per Se. What we prefer is its price point over Per Se. Alinea would be a more appropriate comparison (it has a considerably younger demographic than Per Se, at a similar price point).....so would WD-50 to some extent.

edit: To make my point clear, the price has everything to do with the popularity of Bouley Upstairs. Everything.

←

I'm not a Gen X'er, but I think there's a definite preference for less fancy/less ritualistic dining experiences. Even among us Boomers.

That doesn't mean anyone likes Upstairs's uncomfortable aspects. But I'll tell you what. I find Upstairs more congenial, as an experience, than Bouley. And I doubt I'm alone in that.

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I agree with this....but it doesn't counter my point at all.

[oakapple]

Upstairs is a telling illustration of this phenomenon. It feels to me like the restaurant of the future. I don't see it as "three star food in a no-star setting" -- that sort of obsession with stars, unfortunately ubiquitous in New York restaurant discussions, utterly misses the point of Upstairs.

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Actually, I think it hits the point precisely. There are times when you want this type of experience, and Bouley Upstairs is the ticket.

But there are times when you don't want "lousy coffee," "a very poor bread service," "service hiccups," a wine list that "sucks," no reservations, and tables scrunched so tightly that you need the agility of a Romanian gymnast to reach them.

[Fat Guy]

The coffee, bread, wine and service deficiencies (though I thought the service deficiencies were minor and no worse than many an experience I've had at the luxury dining level) are all easily remedied and are not cause for alarm in an 18-month-old restaurant. The no-reservations policy cuts both ways, and fits well with today's young professional lifestyles where advance planning is extremely difficult. I've not yet heard about anybody waiting hours for a table -- it seems 30-45 minutes is the norm, which is no big deal. Tightly scrunched tables are hardly unique to this place -- there are plenty of much more expensive restaurants where you're packed in plenty tight, and some folks seem to like that kind of energy.

[Fat Guy]

Sneakeater, Upstairs actually got me thinking about Cafe Gray. I realized that all these attempts by haute-cuisine chefs and restaurateurs to fashion non-luxury dining experiences fall into two categories: out of touch, and in touch. The problem with Cafe Gray is that it's out of touch -- out of touch with Gray Kunz's audience, and with the restaurant's time and place. Maybe there's some subset of the population that likes that combination of ambiance, price and food, however I get the feeling that even the people paying to eat there and enjoying it would prefer a different formula. Upstairs, for its part, seems totally in touch with its audience and with its time and place.

[Nathan]

the deficiencies are tolerable precisely because of the price point.

sure there's a growing trend toward informality...but that doesn't mean people want those "deficiencies"...it's exploiting that trend while still retaining excellence (or at least competence) in all areas is precisely how Danny Meyer made his name.

as well, CraftBar, Hearth etc are more precise examples of "restaurants of the future".

as far as I can ascertain...Bouley opened Upstairs as an extension of his cooking school....the gentle pricing (your $75 tasting menu is not representative of the way everyone eats there) is simply an acknowledgment of the fact that it is not a full-service restaurant.

edit: Bouley Upstairs seems to me to be a sort of "happy accident"...not a deliberate concept.

edit2: additional paragraph separation and clarification

Edited February 20, 2007 by Nathan (log)