Italian wines

[ingbakko]

Hy, I am a wine lover (not an expert or a prof.) I am Italian, travelling for business I have many occasion to taste different wines coming from all over the world (I can probably taste an averege of 5 different wines a week).

I don't like to spend fortunes for wines, I fixed a limit at 50 Euros (70 USD) a bottle, I normally prefer reds to whites ...

I change the kind of wine depending on my mood on the weather and normally I first choose the wine and then I copy with the food.

Up to now I couldn't find international wines which can be considered as good as the Italians (of same kind - I mean Pinot with Pinot etc.),

is it because the price limit I fixed? or just because I am Italian? or really Italian winemakers (a part the Supertuscans overpriced because American market) are able to produce excellent wines at good prices?

Can you give me an alternative to 20 Euros "SFURSAT" from Negri or a 17 Euro "Shyraz" by Planeta from a not Italian winemaker?

Ciao

[Brad Ballinger]

Welcome to the Wine Forum, ingbakko. We look forward to your opinions and knowledge about Italian wines.

I'm going to jump to the questions at the end of your post, and then I'll move my way up.

"Can you give me an alternative to 20 Euros "SFURSAT" from Negri?" The short answer is "no." One reason, is that you'll hardly find any nebbiolo grown successfully outside of Piemonte and Lombardia. A second reason is that you will hardly find any dry wines outside of Italy made from grapes that are withering (shriveling, shrinking). I couldn't even give you an alternative to Sfursat at any price.

"Can you give me an alternative to 17 Euro "Shyraz" by Planeta?" You should be able to find plenty. One option is Australian shiraz, particularly from Barossa (this is a growing region, not the name of a producer). My guess is you'll find more Australian wines in your travels than you will find California wines, but California syrah, paticularly from Napa Valley would be a match to Sicily's warm climate.

About your "Pinot to Pinot" comment, do you mean Pinot Nero to Pinot Noir? Do you mean Pinot Grigio to Pinot Gris? Do you mean Pinot Bianco to Pinot Blanc? For the whites, I would recommend Pinot Gris or Pinot Blanc from Alsace. The wines will be different from the Italian alternatives, but equally enjoyable. I've not had much Pinot Nero, and there aren't many Pinot Noir wines that I like, so I'll leave it to someone else to answer that question.

I don't think your price limit is preventing you from tasting good wines. There should be plenty to select from under 50 Euro or 70 USD. Rather, it may depend on what is available where you are traveling.

I also assume you are enjoying the wines with food. And, for some, Italian wines in general tend to have higher acidity levels, making them better food partners. But many wine lovers I know stay away from Italian wines because they find them too acidic.

Super Tuscans have found buyers in the U.S. You are right that the wines are priced high because Americans will pay those prices. Also, many Super Tuscans that have found favor with Americans don't even taste "Italian."

Keep looking. You'll find some wines that will appeal to you. But you may wish to start looking more for good representative wines from the regions from which they come.

[ingbakko]

Thanks for the nice welcome and interesting replay, maybe the problem is just I dont know enough about wines produced outside of Italy. Well also to be a real expert of Italian wines it's a long way to go .... anyhow I am working on it.

I tasted in Singapore an australian Pinot Noir (Nero) that I really liked "Mount Gisbourne 1998", was really excellent (a good match with Franz Haas "Schweizerer" 1999), I paid for it 80 Sing. Dollars (40 Eur) in a top reastaurant. I did look for it in Europe via internet and I found only a winery in UK selling this wine at 125 GBP (almost 200 bucks).

Next week I will be in Dubai there is possible to find many SA and Australians wines, I will bring with me a couple of bottles of Planeta Syrah I will look for Barossa Shiraz and i will try .... (i am sure I will enjoy).

In your opinion which Italian I should match with SA Pinotage ?

Thanks and regards

Ciao

By the way SFURSAT - 5 Stars - it's the wine i like more then any other I did try up to now.

[Brad Ballinger]

125 pounds for Mount Gisborne Pinot Noir is highway robbery. 40 USD is more in line.

Singapore is a tough place to feel confident buying wine. I've been there, and would only drink the "newest" wines available. Given its location (one degree removed from the equator), I'm sure most of the wines there have been exposed to too much heat either in transit, sitting in the container at a port, or in a warehouse that is not air-conditioned. I almost always chose beer over wine when I was there. But I did bring some of my own wine.

I'm not sure what would be the Italian equivalent of Pinotage. Maybe a lighter-styled Nero d'Avola???

Regarding Sfursat -- it's very hard to find in the U.S. Same with Valtellina or Valtellina Superiore. Nebbiolo is almost limited to Barolo, Barbaresco and Langhe wines.

[ingbakko]

In my last trips to Singapore, Hong Kong, Dubai I had very good wines, probably the modern means of transport and the higher level of wine-culture, helps to distribute wines also in hot countries without killing them.

It's a pity there are no many Italian wines available outside of Italy, a part the classical Tuscans and Piedmont wines the rest is almost completely unknown to the public ....

Last week I was looking the wines in the Duty Free shop in Miland Airport and I saw a bottle of Biondi-Santi Brunello di Montalcino 1997, price 255 Euro. When I asked why a price like this, they told me the prices there are just few percent less then average street prices in New York and Tokyo .....

We have indigen grapes which are really uniques and fantastic terroires with very good producer, we dont have good marketing .... if I think what french have done with Beaujoleis......

Well Pinotage and Nero D'Avola a good parallel ....

Ciao

By the way I feel too acid only young sangiovese or barbera ... not a real general characteristic of italian wines..... but we need wines to combine with pasta and fresh cheese ....

[Brad Ballinger]

We have indigen grapes which are really uniques and fantastic terroires with very good producer, we dont have good marketing .... if I think what french have done with Beaujoleis......

←

I agree with your first point. Italy does produce wonderful wines from indigenous grapes, some of which are beginning to gain a reputation outside of Italy. But it's a slow process. It will still be a while before a larger part of the wine community embraces fiano, greco di tufo, falanghina, ribolla gialla, arneis, aglianico, lagrein, piedrosso, sagrantino, negroamoro, picolit, refosco, I could go on.

Regarding marketing, there was a nationwide effort about ten years ago to market the wines of Italy as a country. The problem, at least in the United States, was that the traveling marketing show ended up primarily featuring wines from Piemonte and Toscana -- and we already knew about those.

Also, it isn't helping Italy's reputation regarding quality when DOCG status is being handed out in return for political favors.

What the French have done -- from purely a marketing standpoint -- with Beaujolais is solely limited to Beaujolais Nouveau, a wine that's barely drinkable. Most people haven't really had a good Beaujolais.

[battleofthebulge]

Really interesting question - thanks! Here are a few random thoughts

Having just returned from Italy, where amongst other things we had a '95 Brunello di Montalcino for 26 euro and a '90 Summus for 50 euro ($200 / bottle at auction), I agree that Italian wine *in Italy* is very good and usually very good value. However, back in the UK, I normally now buy from Puglia and Sicily, because DOCG wines, once exported, are too expensive compared to the quality.

I think some of your native varieties and techniques have translated well into the New World. The American vineyard Bonny Doon does an excellent Malvasia. Australia's Primo Estate has a fantastic Amarone, only they aren't now allowed call it Amarone, so it's called Moda instead.

In terms of comparing an Italian Pinot Noir to (for example) a New Zealand Pinot Noir, I think the best winemakers take the grape and make it create the best wine possible on that terroir. PN in particular is a very fragile grape and often difficult to grow successfully. I would choose a New Zealand Pinot over an Italian one, but that's because the Italian wines usually imported into the UK are quite limited.

I wouldn't advise that Italy follows the example of Beaujolais. The wine has a TERRIBLE reputation, because Beaujolais Nouveau now means weak, acidic wine shipped too quickly and without any kind of care for quality. There are good Beaujolais, but you have to work hard to find them!

I'm not a great fan of Pinotage. The grape was made by crossing Pinot Noir and Cinsault (called Hermitage in SA) - I think Nero d'Avola is more interesting!

Perhaps Primitivo? Even that's spicier and warmer, in my opinion.

Finally, some recommendations for Shiraz:

Australia: Tim Adams, Chapel Hill, d'Arenberg. Henshcke(very expensive!)

South Africa: Allesverloren, Graham Beck, Rust en Vrede, Boekenhoustskloof

Happy drinking!

Sarah

[ingbakko]

Thanks Sarah and Brad for your posts, of course when I refer to Beaujolais Nouveau and I agree it's really hard stuff to drink, but they invaded the world and for a lot of people without wine culture (I read to treadhs with the funny questions about wines ) waiting the exit of this wine is an happening ... try to go to any Novotel (standard for averege turist in France) packed with overseas visitors and look at their tables what they drink. Great marketing really good ... It's the Bordeaux marketing which is starting to have some problem, but this is another topic.

There is the need of a revision of DOC and DOCG ... anyhow in Italy politics is inside any aspect of life ... "clientele" were the base of the roman way to govern more then 2000 years ago.

Thanks Sarah for the good hints I took note about the names ... About Primitivo here people say it's the same grape called Zinfandel in California ... actually a good primitio and a good zinfandel are very similar.

I had few weeks ago a dinner with 4 British customer, we were in Bergamo I choosed Syrah 2002 from Planeta. When they emailed me to thanks all of them mentioned the excellent wine .... wine was good but I am a good seller (I dont sell wines, I sell plastics) and I explained them about this wine about sicily about our story .... this is waht I believe italian wines needs to be sold in the international market.

Now I go .... this evening I will open a bottle of Sassicaia, It's my marriage anniversary .... maybe not the best value for the money, but I want to impress my wife

Ciao

[battleofthebulge]

HAPPY ANNIVERSARY!!

hope she was impressed ....

Sarah

[KatieLoeb]

Now I go .... this evening I will open a bottle of Sassicaia, It's my marriage anniversary .... maybe not the best value for the money, but I want to impress my wife

Now there's a man after my own heart. Opening a fabulous bottle of wine to celebrate an anniversary would always get my attention.

Happy Anniversary ans welcome, Ingbakko. Looking forward to your further insights.

[ingbakko]

Thanks all of you .....

Sassicaia was really goood .... also if I still prefere tuffer wines (as I told before Sfursat, Amarone, certain Barolo, Taurasi ..... ).

For sure my wife's enjoyed very much ...

Now I am on my way to Dubai, there I will have the occasion to try few international wines (Australia, SA, Chile ....) but after the bottle of yesterday will be hard game.

Ciao

[Rebel Rose]

I explained them about this wine about sicily about our story .... this is waht I believe italian wines needs to be sold in the international market.

They should make you the Minister of Wine Marketing. Every really special wine has a story!

[Rebel Rose]

ingbakko, are you brave enough to tackle this thread?

Does Italy lack culinary relevance?

[ingbakko]

Quote

Karen, Hi Again.......

Considering my own age, let's not use the term "old"....... May I suggest "somewhat more mature" as less damaging to the ego.

If I had to make a comparative table it might look something like this:

Younger/More Mature

Viognier/ Sauvignon Blanc

Ice Wine/ Sauternes/Tokaj

Sherry/ Port

New World Cabernet Sauvignon/ Bordeaux

Pinot Noir w/out Brett/ Pinot Noir w/a hint of Brett

Alsace Riesling/ German Riesling

Oaked Chablis/ Unoaked Chablis

Provencal Rose/ Spanish Rose

Dislike for Rose Champagne/ Strong Liking for Rose Champagne

Dislike for Beaujolais Cru/ Strong liking for Beaujolais Cru

Krug/ Bollinger

That's about what comes to mind at the moment. Do keep in mind of course that ours is a small, self-selected group, mostly European by birth and that these differences have no statistical significance whatever. All in the name of good fun in this case.

This post has been edited by Daniel Rogov: Aug 5 2005, 08:53 PM

Unquote

This is what I mean .... not any Italian wine mentioned in this very interesting and true comparization table done by Daniel Rogov.

Sorry Daniel if I used your post, it was only to try to clarify what I mean when I say Italian wines are not yet really known enough in the international markets ( a part the sector specialists)

Ciao

Edited August 8, 2005 by ingbakko (log)

[Daniel Rogov]

Ingbakko, Hello....

I plead guilty on that list to not including any Italian wines. That was not because they are not well known outside of Italy, however, for I believe even a cursory market analysis will show that they are indeed well represented on the shelves of wine shops in the USA, the UK and even tiny little Israel (in fact, in Israel they are among the most frequently imported wines). Take a peek at my own wine tasting data base, for example, and you will find that of 11,000+ tasting notes now posted about 2,300 are actually Italian.

Interestingly, one could speculate to the opposite of your fear - that is to say that of all European wine producing countries, Italian wines present perhaps the widest range of wines, those including the mediocre to the superb, and ranging in price from the reasonable to the very dear. As to p.r., I believe you will even find far more coverage given by critics and wine writers to what happens at VinItaly (and last year for the first time at MiWine) than at VinExpo.

From another point of view, with many Bordeaux producers living in terrible anxiety about their economic future, many Italian producers are sitting quite comfortably now, for from Tuscany and Piedmont to Sicily and Puglia these wines are receiving greater and greater attention.

I do apologize for having left off the Italian wines from my list. The result only of the fingers typing faster than the brain works.

[ingbakko]

Ingbakko, Hello....

I plead guilty ..........

←

Dear Daniel thanks for your replay ...

all what you say about italian wines is true .... so this make my point still more strong ... why so difficult to find in the wine list of high level international restaurants decent italian wines (off tuscany and piedmont) ? I travel really a lot ... I have been several times also in Israel and I had the opportunity to try a local produced wine ( I dont remember the name .. it was terrible ). Also there were some Chateuax whatever but not italians ... maybe now things are changing , but generally speaking I still dont find good italian wines in the wine list around the world ... just my experience, and I dont understand why ... it's probably a matter of perception the same mind attitude that forced you to use not an italian wine in your smart table ....

regards

[battleofthebulge]

Hi Ingbakko,

If it makes you feel better, I have to say that from a young-ish UK wine drinker's perspective Daniel's list isn't representative. Riesling, for example, is deeply unfashionable unless Australian. Very very very few people drink German Riesling! Similarly, a very small proportion of people would even know the difference between an icewine and a Tokai, let alone drink the stuff.

However, Italian wine is drunk and enjoyed by a majority. Partly because Italian restaurants have done a lot to promote Italian wines - Enoteca Turi for example has an all-Italian list which would put quite a few top-notch Roman restaurants to shame But also because wine is now the preferred drink for most city people, and there are lots of excellent places to drink it. Pinot Grigio is always a winner in wine bar 'chains' like All Bar One. Prosecco is becoming ever more popular as a good quality alternative to champagne or New World sparkling. Chianti in its new improved form of Chianti Classico is seen as a reliable choice.

We are also lucky to have a number of superb importers. The best known is Valvonna and Crolla, but I've just ordered a case from www.batwine.co.uk - an English couple with a true passion for Italy and its wines.

Wine in the UK is now a way of life for the middle classes, and Italian wine offers a great range of wines for all sorts of occasions.

Sarah

[jennahan]

I think that poor marketing/distribution is part of the problem. I think another really big problem for Italian wines (which I personally love) is that so many of them are strataspherically priced and therefore intimidate the novice, casual drinker, and even intermediate drinker. I think that the price, coupled with unfamiliarity are enough to prevent many people from taking the plunge into really discoving the breadth and depth of wines from Italy. I'd love to buy a reasonable priced Barolo or Barbaresco, but have had a difficult time finding anything less than 40-50 pounds a bottle. To pay that amount for the unknown is a bit intimidating. Sicilian wines seem to be much more available, and so far I've loved what I've tasted. On the plus side, they are reasonably priced, and thus I'm not afraid of just throwing in a bottle of something into my trolly just to try.

[Bill Miller]

I read in Wine Spectator that there are some quality 01' Barolos for under $50USD but I can't find any 01's on the market. Were they premature in their story?

[Craig Camp]

I read in Wine Spectator that there are some quality 01' Barolos for under $50USD but I can't find any 01's on the market.  Were they premature in their story?

←

Well you have made two mistakes, one is relying on The Wine Spectator for information on Piemontese wines and the other is thinking there is great Barolo out there for under $50 in today's market.

For better information try www.piedmontreport.com

The best value out there for under $50 that is easy to find is probably the Fontanafredda Serralunga Barolo. No, it is not great Barolo, but is is very good Barolo, fine nebbiolo and fairly priced. For great Barbaresco value you can't beat the Produttori dei Barbaresco.

If you are looking for value in nebbiolo seek out 2001 Nebbiolo d'Alba or 2000 Gattinara or Ghemme. Also you can still find excellent Barolo and Barbaresco in the market from the very fine 1998 vintage and outstanding 1999 vintage at better prices than current releases.

Edited August 25, 2005 by Craig Camp (log)

[DaleW]

thinking there is great Barolo out there for under $50 in today's market.///The best value out there for under $50 that is easy to find is probably the Fontanafredda Serralunga Barolo. No, it is not great Barolo, but is is very good Barolo, fine nebbiolo and fairly priced.

Craig,

wouldn't you put Marcarini in the very good, if not great, category? Or is their something about 2001 I don't know? I just ordered some Brunate and 1 La Serra for $40 each from Zachys, maybe I goofed.

[Craig Camp]

thinking there is great Barolo out there for under $50 in today's market.///The best value out there for under $50 that is easy to find is probably the Fontanafredda Serralunga Barolo. No, it is not great Barolo, but is is very good Barolo, fine nebbiolo and fairly priced.

Craig,

wouldn't you put Marcarini in the very good, if not great, category? Or is their something about 2001 I don't know? I just ordered some Brunate and 1 La Serra for $40 each from Zachys, maybe I goofed.

←

Those are some great prices. I consider Marcarini one of the finest producers in the entire Barolo zone and the finest in La Morra. Brunate is always in competition for the vintages finest wines. I have tasted the 2001 Marcarini wines many time over the last two years and they are extraordinary. Grab them both up.

Marcarini has worked very hard to keep their prices down in the face of bad exchange rates as has their importer, Neil Empson. Vintage after vintage they are bargains. There are still Marcarini 98's and 99's around that are a veritable steal!

[Craig Camp]

..by the way. I did not realize what a great deal Marcarini had become. The Vietti Brunate 01 (a wine I also like) is $105 at Zacky's. A quick look at Marcarini Brunate 01 averages in the mid-$40s. That may be the best value in Barolo out there for this vintage.

[Daniel Rogov]

I read in Wine Spectator that there are some quality 01' Barolos for under $50USD but I can't find any 01's on the market. 

Bill, Hi....

Following are a few of my tasting notes based on advance tastings of 2001 Barolo wines.

Beni de Batasiolo, Barolo, Piemonte, 2001 (Advance Tasting): Deep garnet towards royal purple, full bodied, with generous firm tannins that need time to settle down and integrate but already showing fine balance and structure. On the nose and palate generous ripe plums and appealing hints of what will develop into smoked meat and raisins. Best starting 2008 and then cellaring comfortably until 2015-2018. Score 91. (Tasted 16 Apr 2005)

Marchesi di Barolo, Barolo, Piemonte, 2001 (Advance Tasting): Full-bodied, with generous tannins and wood but those well balanced with smoked bacon, white pepper, plums and a hint of red licorice that comes in on the long finish. Best 2006-2012. Score 90. (Tasted 16 Apr 2005)

Pira, Barolo, Piemonte, 2001 (Advance Tasting): Dark royal purple in color, full-bodied, with generous near-sweet tannins already integrating nicely and overlays of black pepper and minerals on a background of ripe plums. Needs time to show its elegance. Best only starting in 2007-2008. Score 92. (Tasted 16 Apr 2005)

[Bill Miller]

Thanks Dale, Craig, and Daniel. I'm still learning and I'm going to learn a lot at this site. Just placed my first order with Zachy's using some of your advice