Wine bar?

[wizpers]

Bu, Pullman, and now Pop, is there enough wine lovers in montreal?

[sf&m]

Yes!

[wizpers]

wine lovers who spend more precisly!?

[sf&m]

wine lovers who spend more precisly!?

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Well, maybe that Yes! was a bit rash and selfserving! Got soaked at BU, lol.

I like being able to taste a few wines wihtout paying for a whole bottle since I frequently dine on my own. For "regular" parties of 2 or more that is less an issue. The 2 oz trios at BU works great for me but I am not sure how big a draw they are in general. One friend was a bit put off by the small amount - that of course being the point of a trio - but he was used to getting a bigger serving and stuck on that.

Also if "bar patrons" were really interested in wine, bars would be serving better wine selections.

For sure - for wine a bar to keep it's niche it also have to serve a great selection of small plates and at least one daily mains.....which sort of makes makes it into resto territory.

So I guess wine bars have some ingraned behavioural and competitive hurdles to pass.

But all you need to stay in business is a great looking space, cool customers, good wine and superb food.... welcome to reality....

Maybe the ideal Wine Bar is a great resto with an adjoining large bar area with a serious tasting selection. The Slanted Door in SF has perfected that with a huge bar cranking out wine and coctails (and food) for dining patrons.

[Lesley C]

I say yeah sure. As long as there's good food to go with that good wine.

Anyway, aren't the boys at BU already working on another place in front of BU?

[Thesorus]

maybe, last time I was there, 2 weeks ago, they were looking at a floor plan that didn't look like the current BU

[ItalianFoodJunkie]

maybe, last time I was there, 2 weeks ago, they were looking at a floor plan that didn't look like the current BU

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[/quot

I think the guys at Bu are opening in Town.

It has always been my dream to open a wine bar. I would model it off enoteca della croce in Rome. Not necesarily the coolest private imports but definately the best anitpasti!

Unfortunately, I never got further than the drawing board, because everytime i work through the numbers I realize that it takes high volume to make money with a wine bar, because of the low margins (%) on wine by the glass. EX. A top quality pizza with fresh mozzarella and sicilian anchiovies has a food cost of about 2.25, but you can sell it for 12.95 (17% cost). At Bu for example a glass of wine they sell $8 often cost them 3-4$ (40-50% cost) So you need to do double the volume, or have the cusotmers spend twice as much per visit than the previous example.

So I am waiting to find that perfect spot that could yield me the right volume.

Btw, I think Bu is great. THe guys do a fabulus job!

[sf&m]

Yes, but on the other hand the prepartion cost for a trio of 3 x 3 oz glasses of wine at about $15-$20 is much less than for a $15 pizza. And takes much less space and equipment.

Bu is a favourite..... I only wish they rotated their food menu a bit more.

IFJ - I would go for an enoteca in Little Italy!!

/gth

[wizpers]

Bu are opening a tourist trap downtown, nothing like a wine bar... but seems to be a wise moove, those guys no how to count$$, the cost on the wines at bu by the glass is not that bad, dont forget they serve 3oz and 4oz on the 3 glasses flight.... gives beetween 6-8 glasses a bottle, and it leaves 1 oz for the staff to taste...instead of 5 oz in other places...

The food got to change a bit, or add other daily piatto del giorno

[-sheila mooney]

maybe, last time I was there, 2 weeks ago, they were looking at a floor plan that didn't look like the current BU

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[/quot

I think the guys at Bu are opening in Town.

It has always been my dream to open a wine bar. I would model it off enoteca della croce in Rome. Not necesarily the coolest private imports but definately the best anitpasti!

Unfortunately, I never got further than the drawing board, because everytime i work through the numbers I realize that it takes high volume to make money with a wine bar, because of the low margins (%) on wine by the glass. So I am waiting to find that perfect spot that could yield me the right volume.

Btw, I think Bu is great. THe guys do a fabulus job!

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A wine bar in my Paris neighbourhood (18th) makes extra cash by selling memberships, which entitle holders to invitations to limited-seating tastings. Most are free, but some cost a few euros, if the wines are particularly expensive or if an expert is brought in to lead the session. Maybe factor that in to your biz plan?

[Thesorus]

Bu, Pullman, and now Pop, is there enough wine lovers in montreal?

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Where's Pop ?

I google for it, but cannot find anything related to a wine bar.

Thanks.

[riboflavinjoe]

I think pop is next to Laloux on des Pins, at around Drolet or somewhere around there.

[jfl91]

I would like to see a new place with better wines than at Bu (don't get me wrong I like Bu and Pat is a friend). But I am sure there is people ready to pay a little more to have a glass of Cheval Blanc or a glass of a good Meursault. I am sure some people are ready to pay 40-100$ a glass for some good juice.

[wizpers]

I would like to see a new place with better wines than at Bu (don't get me wrong I like Bu and Pat is a friend). But I am sure there is people ready to pay a little more to have a glass of Cheval Blanc or a glass of a good Meursault.  I am sure some people are ready to pay 40-100$ a glass for some good juice.

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the problem is that you need 5 costumers in the same night ready to pay that price for a bomb and personally in montreal it's not possible...(by the glass). I wont pay for a wine open for several days...

[Mr. Fagioli]

This is not my scene at all, but I've often walked by a place called Les Caves Saint-Joseph (on St-Laurent, west side, just below St-Joseph). Very fancy-looking, and to judge by appearances it's certainly oriented to those who know and love their wine.

I never seem to see anything written about it, it never seems very busy, and yet it's been going for at least a year, maybe two. Is this some kind of a hidden gem, or a fancy façade for mediocrity?

[Vinfidel]

I would like to see a new place with better wines than at Bu (don't get me wrong I like Bu and Pat is a friend). But I am sure there is people ready to pay a little more to have a glass of Cheval Blanc or a glass of a good Meursault.  I am sure some people are ready to pay 40-100$ a glass for some good juice.

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the problem is that you need 5 costumers in the same night ready to pay that price for a bomb and personally in montreal it's not possible...(by the glass). I wont pay for a wine open for several days...

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there are many machines that can keep a wine perfectly prreserved for days/weeks under inert gas. they are v. common in the us because many restaurants have a hgue list of wines by the glass

i think the market can afford it here jfl91, i would be there with you paying to drink glasses of legendary wines so you don't have to put a car payment for the bottle

[carswell]

the problem is that you need 5 costumers in the same night ready to pay that price for a bomb and personally in montreal it's not possible...(by the glass).

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Agreed. This was driven home last weekend when we ordered the Champagne flight at Bû. The top-of-the-line wine, Larmandier-Bernier, V.V. de Cramant, Grand cru 2000, was poured from the tail end of a bottle and tasted oxidized. A replacement glass, poured from a new bottle, didn't. In other words, turnover was low on this $20 a glass Champagne. How low would it have been if the wine had been a $50 a glass Krug or Salon?

Edited September 18, 2005 by carswell (log)

[jfl91]

Bû is not well reputated to serve expensive wine. In every restaurants in town they serve Champagne by the glass (crappy Champagne like Veuve or Moet) at 20-27$. You can serve between 8-10 glass of wine with a bottle. Let's say you open a Shafer HSS that you paid 230$, you just have to sell it for 35-40$. Nobody would do the line-up at SAQ in the morning to buy Larmandier Champagne (I know it's private import) but for Shafer, it's sold out before 11h00.

You need to know what to sell and people that are ready to drink these wines need to know that you have these wine by the glass.

I think it's possible, since we are already two to talk about it on this discussion board. I know at least 30-40 people that will be ready to spend the money. Open a Hommage à Perrin 95 and I will pay the 50$ glass. Expensive wine sell really good in Montreal

Edited September 19, 2005 by jfl91 (log)

[wizpers]

Of course it's posible , but you dont make a living with possibility, you need facts... Sell 5 glasses of a 80 $ cost bottle means that you have to sell to at least at 35$ the glass, I am in the restaurant business for 20 years and trust me you 40 big spenders are not in the same place at the same time.....lol.... in a special event, yes for sure, but in a day to day logic IT IS NOT POSSIBLE in montreal.

[wizpers]

And also, add gas to a wine, is a half solution, you cannot convince me that you save the wine of any oxydation at all !

[carswell]

You need to know what to sell and people that are ready to drink these wines need to know that you have these wine by the glass.

I think it's possible, since we are already two to talk about it on this discussion board.  I know at least 30-40 people that will be ready to spend the money.  Open a Hommage à Perrin 95 and I will pay the 50$ glass. Expensive wine sell really good in Montreal

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Sure, bottles of expensive wine sell well at Montreal SAQ stores. And in restos during the Grand Prix. Aside from that, Montrealers are as frugal with their wine budgets as with their resto budgets. (Case in point: bottles of Chave's 1997 Hermitage stayed on Jongleux Café's list for weeks, despite selling for considerably less than the US retail price.)

I've heard details of two business models for wine bars in Montreal; neither concluded the concept would work with expensive wines (see also wizpers' latest remarks). Personally, I think the only way you'd get sustainable numbers of people to plunk for pricey plonk is if you offered tastes of wines they could acquire — the try-before-you-buy principle. But as you point out, sought-after wines often sell out in a matter of days, if not hours, which defeats both the principle and the purpose.

But, hey, if you build it, maybe they'll come. In your shoes, though, I'd ask myself — as someone willng to spend $100s on a litre of olive oil and many $10s on a kilo of coffee beans — if my perception of the prices typical Montrealers are prepared to bear wasn't a bit skewed.

Edited September 18, 2005 by carswell (log)

[Lesley C]

I don't think wines like that belong in a wine bar. It's too much of a risk for the owner.

However, there are some interesting wine clubs popping up all around the city where people are drinking some wildly expensive wines. I just saw a menu from a wine club event that was unreal. I mean the bottles were in the thousands.

You might also want to check out some upcoming special event nights at places like Bu, for a chance to try some better wines by the glass. Or contact a sommelier who gives wine classes on the side. They are usually popping open some pretty good stuff. I hear Nick Hamilton does some very high end tastings from time to time.

[Vinfidel]

Of course it's posible , but you dont make a living with possibility, you need facts... Sell 5 glasses of a 80 $ cost bottle means that you have to sell to at least at 35$ the glass, I am in the restaurant business for 20 years and trust me you 40 big spenders are not in the same place at the same time.....lol.... in a special event, yes for sure, but in a day to day logic IT IS NOT POSSIBLE in montreal.

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the regular montealais is too poor to afford premier cru and better. but this is not the point, we are not monaco or dubai

if there is a special event think even students will come to taste mouton and haut brion and yquem and HSS and dunhoff and and rest of the greats. do not be so narrow minded that montreal is only beggars but no banquet - we maybe need financing but still we like good foods and wines!

[jfl91]

We are not thinking about making 200-300% profit on a bottle here (this is not Queue de Cheval)! A bottle at 80$ should sell for 125-135$. And why you have to serve only 5 glass? 55-80ml is just perfect so you can make 8 glass easy with a bottle een if you taste it and you think about 30ml that you can't serve because of deposit. A 80$ bottle, should sell at 17-20$ the glass maximum.

Anyway, there is not only poor people in this town and why when it's time to talk about more expensive things, we always freak out and think it's impossible here. Do you know how many porsche they are selling a year in Montreal? It's sold out every year! To buy the new Cayman, you have to be on the waiting list. For sure Montreal is not corporate like Toronto and it's not as big. But there is wine lovers in town that are ready to spend and I know that for a fact.

The 70 panaches of DRC sells out every year in 2 days at 7000$ for the case. The courrier vinicole had 3 times more orders for the Burgundy 2002 than the last Burg primeurs and the 2002 are really expensive.

Even if it's possible or not, I would love to see a place like I want open in town.

As for private tastings, it's good and I am participating to many many tastings but sometimes it's fun to have a quick stop by the bar, have a good glass of wine. For now, the only choices, are openning bottles at home (wich sometimes is just too much), buy a bottle at the restaurant at a crazy price or going to private tastings wich is something completely different (this is not quick and you taste many wines and it's not when you want).

[wizpers]

So now you need 8 costumers to sell your bottle in 1 night, it s worst, and hey 2,5 oz for a glass is only good on a flight... j'ai soif monsieur!

And trust me, the day it will be ineresting with some profits to do it, you'll see it, but obviously...