From the desks of Vatel, La Varenne, and Company

[andiesenji]

I would like to recommend my favorite source for REPRINTS of ancient and historical cookbooks.

I have purchased a large number of books from this vendor.

Acanthus Books

[Adam Balic]

Yes, I'm talking about the earlier version of Gingerbread, which isn't baked, just moulded.

Gervase Markham's "The English Hous-wife" (1615)

"Take a quart of Honey clarified, and seeth it till it be brown, and if it

be thick, put it to a dish of water: then take fine crumbs of white bread

grated, and put to it, and stirre it well, and when it is almost cold, put

to it the powder of Ginger, Cloves, Cinnamon, and a little Licoras and

Anniseeds: then knead it, and put it into a mould and print it. Some use to

put to it also a little Pepper, but that is according unto taste and

pleasure."

So there is a heating step, but this is to get the honey reduced to stage where is will form a dough when mixed with the bread crumbs. In my experience the mixture still comes out soft, but firms up nicely in a month or so of storage.

The braided cake looks good. Reminds me of Jumbals.

Maybe we should do a Period cook off thing?

[Eden]

Yes, I'm talking about the earlier version of Gingerbread, which isn't baked, just moulded.

<snipped>

So there is a heating step, but this is to get the honey reduced to stage where is will form a dough when mixed with the bread crumbs. In my experience the mixture still comes out soft, but firms up nicely in a month or so of storage.

Interesting how the gingerbrede recipe has changed over time. In the medieval rendition the bread crumbs are boiled in the honey for a bit, though the spices are added off the fire:

Gingerbrede - English 14th c. from the Book of Goud Kokery

To make gingerbrede. Take goode honey & clarifie it on the fere, & take fayre paynemayn or wastel brede & grate it, & caste it into the boylenge hony, & stere it well togyder faste with a sklyse that it bren not to the vessell. & thanne take it doun and put therin ginger, longe pepper & saundres, & tempere it vp with thin handes; & than put hem to a flatt boyste & strawe theron suger, & pick therin clowes rounde aboute by the egge and in the mydes, yf it plece you, &c.

Maybe we should do a Period cook off thing?

I think that would be fun. We could take turns picking a recipe of the month for people to play with?

[Pan]

[...]From an anonymous andalusian cookbook of the 13th century

Translated by Charles Perry, Webbed here.

Preparation of Juraydât , Small Locusts* 

Take bread from white semolina, take it outside and put it in the sun until

it dries. Grind it and sieve it, soak it in oil and leave it a day and a

night. Throw on thickened honey, after scattering on it, and knead it with

pepper and enough spices to make it into round hazelnuts [or meatballs], God

willing.[...]

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I love the "God willing" (Inshallah) at the end of the recipe. Somehow, it seems a very appropriate way to end every recipe, knowing as we all know that there are many variables involved in cooking.

Would any of you like to talk a little about "paynemayn or wastel brede"? I've heard of wastrel bread, I think, but I can't place the other one.

[Eden]

I love the "God willing" (Inshallah) at the end of the recipe. Somehow, it seems a very appropriate way to end every recipe, knowing as we all know that there are many variables involved in cooking.

Would any of you like to talk a little about "paynemayn or wastel brede"? I've heard of wastrel bread, I think, but I can't place the other one.

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a good portion of the Al-Andalus recipes end this way, maybe the other recipes are more dependable?

According to Heiatt & Butler in 'Curye on Inglysch' (excellent source by the way) paynemayn is "best quality white bread". Variants on the term include: payndemayn, pain de mayn, pain main etc.

Whyt was his face as payndemayn

Edited July 8, 2005 by Eden (log)

[Pan]

I love the "God willing" (Inshallah) at the end of the recipe. Somehow, it seems a very appropriate way to end every recipe, knowing as we all know that there are many variables involved in cooking.

Would any of you like to talk a little about "paynemayn or wastel brede"? I've heard of wastrel bread, I think, but I can't place the other one.

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a good portion of the Al-Andalus recipes end this way, maybe the other recipes are more dependable?

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In all seriousness, probably not, or at least not on that basis. Muslims are always supposed to end their statements with "Inshallah," to acknowledge that no human plans or wishes are successful unless God wills it.

Thanks for the information about paynemayn.

I did a web search and found a definition for wastel bread:

http://www.hyperdictionary.com/dictionary/wastel

Meaning of WASTEL

Webster's 1913 Dictionary

  Definition: 

\Was"tel\, n. [OF. wastel, gastel, F. g[^a]teau, LL.

wastellus, fr. MHG. wastel a kind of bread; cf. OHG. & AS.

wist food.]

A kind of white and fine bread or cake; -- called also

{wastel bread}, and {wastel cake}. [Obs.]

      Roasted flesh or milk and wasted bread.  --Chaucer.

      The simnel bread and wastel cakes, which were only used

      at the tables of the highest nobility.  --Sir W.

                                              Scott.

The current edition of Merriam-Webster (www.m-w.com) has no definition for wastel.

Should we talk about simnel bread now?

[Adam Balic]

Maybe we should do a Period cook off thing?

I think that would be fun. We could take turns picking a recipe of the month for people to play with?

←

Well I guess pick a period then or make a list of potential dishes. I am happy to do anything from Medieval to Victorian.

Another idea would be to pick a dish that has some type of continous history through these periods. Blancmange is an idea, as are various pies.

[anzu]

Can I put in a vote for blancmange here?

I think because it had so many versions - chicken, the Lenten version with fish, etc., has undergone so many variations, and spans such a wide geographical area - it would really be a lot of fun to play around with this one.

For myself, I'd also consider doing a side by side comparison with similar contemporary Indian and Turkish dessert dishes that contain chicken, as well, just to see.

And a question to Adam concerning your photo above. What are the red/crimson diamonds?

Edited to add: maybe I'm being too hasty. Which were the pies you had in mind?

Edited July 8, 2005 by anzu (log)

[Adam Balic]

Can I put in a vote for blancmange here?

And a question to Adam concerning your photo above. What are the red/crimson diamonds?

Edited to add: maybe I'm being too hasty. Which were the pies you had in mind?

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These are" Kissing Comfits" or "Muscadines". Gum paste flavoured with rosewater and musk (sans musk in this case). They make your breath smell nice, which is dead sexy and hence the kissing bit.

From  Shakespeare's The Merry Wives of Windsor.

FALSTAFF:

My doe with the black scut! Let the sky rain

potatoes; let it thunder to the tune of 'Greensleeves'; hail

kissing-comfits and snow eringoes; let there come a tempest

of provocation, I will shelter me here.

Eringoes are Sea Holly (Eryngium maritimum), in this case the candied roots of the sea holly, which look phallic, which is sexy.

Potatoes refer to sweet potatoes, which were relatively new, exotic and phallic (sort of), also candied and considered sexy. In the image I posted are some sugary orange blobs, these are candied potatoes similar to what Falstaff is talking about.

[C_Ruark]

I would like to recommend my favorite source for REPRINTS of ancient and historical cookbooks.

I have purchased a large number of books from this vendor.

Acanthus Books

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NICE FIND!

[C_Ruark]

Maybe we should do a Period cook off thing?

I think that would be fun. We could take turns picking a recipe of the month for people to play with?

←

Well I guess pick a period then or make a list of potential dishes. I am happy to do anything from Medieval to Victorian.

Another idea would be to pick a dish that has some type of continous history through these periods. Blancmange is an idea, as are various pies.

←

Eden,

Great Idea... let's try it out and see what happens. Do we need to set guidelines? I think simply including a photo and the complete recipe should work. I cribbed the gingerbread recipe you wrote of upthread.

Can you explain the "clarrified honey" bit? I would think this means 'honey with all the scum removed'; wondering if the market bought "pure honey" will suffice. (Adam your recipe mentions the same ingredient, your thoughts?)

Adam,

By all means... cook and give us more samples to look at. I'm guessing you should do something pre-Victorian.

Everyone else,

Thanks for reading this thread and contributing.

Chris

[Adam Balic]

"Clarify" etc means to make it clear (L. calrus=clear) etc. Modern commercial honey is already clear so doesn't need the crude removed, but boiling it reduces and this means that a fudge textured sweetmeat/candy can be made when mixed and kneaded with breadcrumbs. Otherwise you will just get a damp sticky mixture that will not set.

This technique is similar to the method for producing Siena's panforte and pan pepato, which can be thought of as cousins to this type of extinct English gingerbread.

[C_Ruark]

"Clarify" etc means to make it clear (L. calrus=clear) etc. Modern commercial honey is already clear so doesn't need the crude removed, but boiling it reduces and this means that a fudge textured sweetmeat/candy can be made when mixed and kneaded with breadcrumbs. Otherwise you will just get a damp sticky mixture that will not set.

This technique is similar to the method for producing Siena's panforte and pan pepato, which can be thought of as cousins to this type of extinct English gingerbread.

←

Ok, so it's not the "clarify" in the butter/ghee sense, or the "cut with glycerin" method. Cool. No extra effort needed with pure honey. Since I buy honey "straight off the farm" direct from a producer then, as long as none of the comb is present I should be good to go.

Can you measure the reduction stages using the ball method like simple syrup? Or is there an alternative?

C

[Adam Balic]

Well I reduced the honey until it reached 235.F (soft ball) on my thermometre. Didn't actually test if it formed a soft ball or not, but the recipe work well.

It does involve guess work though and trial and error. I though my gingerbread was too soft, but when I tested a bit after a month it was perfect. Part of the point of these gingerbread was that they were made for storage, so this makes sense.

These recipes are not really exact, For instance 'thickened honey' in the Al-andalus recipe could mean 'reduced' as I have done above. If you think about it honey is already 'thick' so what exactly does 'thickened' mean then? Difficult to know for sure after 700 years or so.

[Eden]

Well I reduced the honey until it reached 235.F (soft ball) on my thermometre. Didn't actually test if it formed a soft ball or not, but the recipe work well.

Out of curiosity, since I need to thicken some honey for my Al-Andalus recipe, how thick was the honey at this stage compared to how it came out of the jar? How long did it take to get there, did you use a double boiler, or heat it directly over the flame. Thanks for any clues. I haven't cooked honey down previously & it makes me nervous that I'm going to boil-over/burn the honey & have a gigantic mess on my hands...

These recipes are not really exact, For instance 'thickened honey' in the Al-andalus recipe could mean 'reduced' as I have done above. If you think about it honey is already 'thick' so what exactly does 'thickened' mean then? Difficult to know for sure after 700 years or so.

I was just having this discussion locally, with theories ranging from reduced honey, to whipped honey, to crystalized honey. One person mentioned that other early middle-eastern recipes call for cooking down honey - I'm waiting for her to track down sources...

These are" Kissing Comfits" or "Muscadines". Gum paste flavoured with rosewater and musk (sans musk in this case). They make your breath smell nice, which is dead sexy and hence the kissing bit.

So have you found a source for a culinary safe musk? I have come across many recipes which call for this ingredient, and get frustrated that I am not making them as accurately as I could...

Another idea would be to pick a dish that has some type of continous history through these periods. Blancmange is an idea, as are various pies.

This would make sense given that we have various different focuses represented here, although I also like the idea of busting out & playing with 18th century food for a change

(I think we should go up through victorian/edwardian, the food then is still pretty different from what we eat today...)

[Adam Balic]

1. Well, my honey was mixed with red wine and then reduced. From memory it was still pretty runnyu, but starting to get that bubbly thinkness you get with sugar syrup. No real risk of burning at this stage.

2. You know, I missed the 'thickened' bit in the first reading. Given the similarity to Medieval gingerbread (maybe the Arabic sweetmeat is even an ancestor) and other similar products, I guess it means reduced. But, you could always ask Charles Perry for his opinion as her did the translation and has an interest in recreating these foods?

3. When I was in Fez (Morocco) I was offered both musk and ambergris. Very tempted I was, as these are common ingredients from my favourite period. But, as I was un-happpy not knowing the sources and how they were obtained, I declined. I can tell you what they smell like though.

4. Well another idea would be to pick a later period dish and see if it can be traced back. For instance I was interested in the idea of chicken with custard sauce (think like a modern Avgolemono sauce), I have British versions from the Forme of Cury to the late 18th century in Scotland where is finally dies. Icecream/sorbert/sherbet would be neat to do.

But what may be the most simple thing to do is to pick a week and each person that is interested make a dish and post images, recipes etc. If that works out then maybe something more structured could be planned.

I am in France next week, but I will do something for the week after.

[Eden]

But what may be the most simple thing to do is to pick a week and each person that is interested make a dish and post images, recipes etc. If that works out then maybe something more structured could be planned.

well since I am mid-recipe with the "locusts" Why don't I just continue to post the process on this recipe for a start?

Thank you for the helpful answers. And yes, I'd love to know what the musk smelled like!

[Eden]

Locusts - round two:

I'm afraid I was trying to do this around other activites, so it did not have the focused attention it deserved...

I started per a suggestion by trying to reduce the honey in a double boiler. After an hour it had barely reached 160F and no reduction seemed to be happening, so I switched to a heavy enamel pot directly over the flame. Within 3 minutes I'd cooked the honey to 250F (hard crack). This was a bit higher than intended, and when left to cool, it hardened past stir-ability so I had to reheat it to mix it into the bread crumbs. next time I will only take it to soft crack, and I think it will stir in without trouble.

As with the first time it was a little difficult to form the balls, (the oil makes them not want to stick) but I smooshed hard & got them into little balls mostly, and once I let them set for an hour or so the honey stiffened back up & held them together beautifully.

I'm afraid none of the close-up shots came out well, but here's the tray of sweets about to be taken on a picnic. Also no shot when plated because well, they descended like locusts again, especially those who had tried them the first time!

I'll post the recipe to recipe gullet later this evening, I'm off to help a friend make Pork Egyrdouce for 150...

[KarenS]

codling /coddling/codlin definition here.

Another source also mentioned them as 'apples suitable for coddling'. I.e. gently stewed (c/o coddled eggs for example).

Also the reference to apples turns up with coddling/coddlin moths (species of apple worm).

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Prospect Books has a very good glossary of 17-18th century English cooking terms.

Codlings were apples that were poached "coddled", while still hard and green. Effort was made to keep the green colour. Discriptions of the apples suggest a pear shaped fruit, but Bramley apples are often cited as a modern codling type (although they don't retain their shape when cooked, so I doubt this).

I'm assuming that the codling apples were used for their pectin. When I make guava jelly- I do as I was taught by an elder Hawaiian lady, always add a portion of green fruit.

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[Adam Balic]

I'm assuming that the codling apples were used for their pectin. When I make guava jelly- I do as I was taught by an elder Hawaiian lady, always add a portion of green fruit.

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I don' think that pectin was the reason for the use of these apples, as they were most often served whole. Possibly the key to there use was that they were relatively hard and didn't turn into mush when poached

Here is an American recipe demonstrating how they were cooked (both whole and cut up).

Martha Washington's Booke of Cookery

[To Make] A Codling Tarte Eyther to Looke Clear or Green

"First coddle [poach] ye [the] apples in faire water; yn [then] take halfe the weight in sugar & make as much syrrop as will cover ye bottom of yr [your] preserving pan, & ye rest of ye suger keepe to throw on them as the boyle, which must be very softly; & you must turne them often least they burne too. Then put them in a thin tart crust, & give them with theyr syrrup halfe an hours bakeing; or If you pleas, you may serve them up in a handsome dish, onely garnished with suger & cinnamon. If you would gave yr apples looke green, coddle them in fair water, then pill them, & put them into ye water againe, & cover them very close. Then lay them in yr coffins [ crust] of paste with lofe [loaf] suger, & bake them not too hard. When you serve them up, put in with a tunnell [funnel] to as many of them as you pleas, a little thick sweet cream."

---Martha Washington's Booke of Cookery, transcribed by Karen Hess [Columbia University Press:New York] 1981 (p. 95-96)

Edited July 11, 2005 by Adam Balic (log)

[Adam Balic]

Eden - the Locusts look excellent. How do you think this batch compares to the previous batch using the non-reduced honey?

[Eden]

Eden - the Locusts look excellent. How do you think this batch compares to the previous batch using the non-reduced honey?

Well they hold together much better, the fist round realy just wanted to crumble when you touched them, and on this round, Bill accidentally turned the box on it's side when we got to the park and only one of them broke.

Flavor wise I think the first batch was a little sweeter, and spicier tasting, which could be the honey variety (round one used Huckleberry honey, round two a mix of huckleberry and Fireweed) or the cooking process. It shouldn't be the honey quantity since I beleive round two had a slightly higher honey ratio.

I cut the oil quantity in round two, because while round One didn't taste oily, it was a little greasy to handle, and I think the oil is part of what made it hard for them to hold together. I also mixed the oil into the crumbs on round two with a food processor rather than a fork to make sure the smaller amount of oil got distributed well.

I'm probably going to make round Three this afternoon just to confirm that the soft crack works, and that letting the oiled crumbs sit makes no real difference (Plus, I have a meeting to attend where they like to get treats...)

I ran into my husbands Boss a few weeks ago & got asked when I was gong to send in some more yummy historical food - please! When I make too much of something I often send the extras in to work with Bill, apparently I hadn't been cooking enough recently

[Eden]

With much delay because life happens...

Round 3 of the "locusts" was almost perfect. no photos because they look pretty much the same as round 2...

this time, I cooked the honey only until it reached 230F (soft crack) and mixed it into the crumbs, almost immediately. I also found the trick to making the little balls look nicer. you form them initially, let them rest 5 minutes while the honey is firming up, and then come back & smooth them up.

The one odd thing was that in spite of a higher crumb to oil ratio, this time there was a little too much oil for the crumbs somehow. I think this is just a humidity factor so I've just modified the recipe to allow a little extra crumbs to be thrown in as needed...

The recipe is now in RG

[marlena spieler]

Even though we might know, well we who write about food DO know, at least intellectually, that others shall we say borrow, typos and all, recipes, wording, in other words our work......but it always comes as a surprise when you see your own work, smack dab there, being non acrredited, or credit taken by author, or credit ascribed to an unknown author, etc........i've even found recipes plus my exact words and typos, by a celeb chef, and then tracked down his agent who said. the celeb said he didn't do it, his assistant did. and the agent said its his now as he used it on a television programme. everyone admitted it came directly from my book, it was word for word. oh it goes on.....

But, to see it on egullet. must have been a terrible shock!

here's hoping that Chris can find his source and get back to them, and correct them of their error! if possible in situations like this we should name and shame.

this stuff almost constantly breaks MY heart, and I'm sooooo sorry to see you, Daniel, being the victim.

how i wish we could do something about this awful thing, stealing from our very hearts, because when i create a recipe, it is as if i am sitting you (the reader) down at my table and feeding you, i am giving you the work of my heart. to have that stolen makes me feel sick.

Marlena

what is even worse is when people steal steal steal from you (as i have the unfortunate experience of mostly in britain, its not nearly so bad in the usa) and then they turn around and accuse you of plagarism (as if i didn't have enough to say, or enough ideas to cook, that i had to take other peoples!!!!!) . thats plain disgusting. and alas, a meal that i am forced to swallow quite a bit these days........

[C_Ruark]

Even though we might know, well we who write about food DO know, at least intellectually, that others shall we say borrow, typos and all, recipes, wording, in other words our work......but it always comes as a surprise when you see your own work, smack dab there, being non acrredited, or credit taken by author, or credit ascribed to an unknown author, etc........i've even found recipes plus my exact words and typos, by a celeb chef, and then tracked down his agent who said. the celeb said he didn't do it, his assistant did. and the agent said its his now as he used it on a television programme.  everyone admitted it came directly from my book, it was word for word. oh it goes on.....

But, to see it on egullet. must have been a terrible shock!

here's hoping that Chris can find his source and get back to them, and correct them of their error!  if possible in situations like this we should name and shame.

this stuff almost constantly breaks MY heart, and I'm sooooo sorry to see you, Daniel, being the victim.

how i wish we could do something about this awful thing, stealing from our very hearts, because when i create a recipe, it is as if i am sitting you (the reader) down at my table and feeding you, i am giving you the work of my heart. to have that stolen makes me feel sick.

Marlena

what is even worse is when people steal steal steal from you (as i have the unfortunate experience of mostly in britain, its not nearly so bad in the usa) and then they turn around and accuse you of plagarism (as if i didn't have enough to say, or enough ideas to cook, that i had to take other peoples!!!!!) . thats plain disgusting. and alas, a meal that i am forced to swallow quite a bit these days........

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Guys,

Torch me directly all you want. It is certainly warranted in this case.

I contacted Mr. Rogov directly to apologize and convey that the recipe copy I had posted was his - although at my time of posting I did not know it. I had requested from the recipe from a family member who's maintained a handwritten version of the recipe for some time.

I expressed an interest to pass it on and recieved the posted recipe in an e-mail. The recipe did not include a citation. Therefore I thought I had a wholely new work.

I've cross-checked and Mr. Rogov is most certainly the originating source. Give him credit where it's due.

Apologies to all, it is very difficult to cross-check recipes in the family cookbook.

- CSR

Edited August 1, 2005 by C_Ruark (log)