Montreal vs NYC

[alex_b]

Bonjour! I've always read with great interest the fabulous recommendations made whenever someone new comes along to ask, "Where should I go for a fabulous dinner in Montreal?" So, here we go again... However, I feel I should add two minor elements of clarification.

First, this meal would be in the company of a New Yorker who will be making his first trip to our fair city. I really want to take him somewhere that will prove that we deserve our reputation as a culinary hub, and have more to offer than just the best bagels and smoked meat around!

Secondly, I would need to make the reservation for two around 8 pm next Monday night. Ah, yes, the cursed Monday night when the majority of our top-notch establishments (Toqué!, La Chronique, Anise, etc.) are closed and those that are not closed are full.

My first choice at this point is L'Express, a longtime favorite. However, I'm very open to any and all other suggestions that would make this city proud.

[Thesorus]

l'expresse is good but you will not impress your friend; maybe lemeac will be a better choice for that kind of food.

[gruyere]

If les Caprices de Nicolas, Club Chasse et Peche or Milos are open on Monday, I believe these would be good choices.

Club C et P is probably the best representative of the 'relaxed atmosphere with great service, wine and food' approach that, by accident or otherwise, seems so front and centre in Montreal these days.

[Chewie]

I believe both Les Caprices de Nicolas and Milos are open on Mondays, whereas Le Club Chasse et Peche is not. Just remeber that Milos is in NY as well...

Brunoise is also a good choice for Monday dining and has had writes-ups in the NY times.

Lemeac is also very good , but maybe not impressive

Monday dining is tricky- too bad it's not tuesday...

[Lesley C]

L'Express if he's into ambiance. La Chronique or Toque! if he's a foodie.

[Daniel]

My girlfriend and I went to Europea and really enjoyed the tasting menu. We sat in the back room at liked the space too. How does this place rate with La Chronique, thats on our list of places to try next time..

Edited June 6, 2005 by Daniel (log)

[docsconz]

As a New Yorker, I wouldn't worry too much about whether or not your friend will be impressed. Just about any of the restaurants mentioned are worthy as well as a number of others such as Les Chevre and Rosalie. I would suggest that you just trust your instincts and go someplace that you particularly enjoy. Montreal may not have quite the depth and variety of restaurants as a behemoth city as New York, but it certainly does not lack in quality. Unless the meal is an "off" one at one of these restaurants, I cannot see how your friend will not be pleased.

[Alida Gualtieri]

Hi. I just returned from a 4 day trip to NYC and can honestly say that we may not have as many restaurants to choose from but that the quality of our restaurants match if not surpass the places I visited and the prices are so much better!

I would suggest lemeac if you want Bistro food-it has a great terrace to boot. I would suggest Brunoise for the exception food / price value and the fact it's a fun and casual atmosphere. If Club Chasse et Peche is open go there with a walk in old Montreal to add to the evening-great food.

For a great italian-well new Italian go to Bronté...

Happy dining

Alida

[Vinfidel]

Hi. I just returned from a 4 day trip to NYC and can honestly say that we may not have as many restaurants to choose from but that the quality of our restaurants match if not surpass the places I visited and the prices are so much better!

I would suggest lemeac if you want Bistro food-it has a great terrace to boot. I would suggest Brunoise for the exception food / price value and the fact it's a fun and casual atmosphere. If Club Chasse et Peche is open go there with a walk in old Montreal to add to the evening-great food.

For a great italian-well new Italian go to Bronté...

Happy dining

Alida

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Just curious Alida - where did you eat in NYC? Having been a resident of NYC for many years and just returning to Montreal (for the summer!) I'm really curious to know how you can draw this conclusion.

[Alida Gualtieri]

Hi. I just returned from a 4 day trip to NYC and can honestly say that we may not have as many restaurants to choose from but that the quality of our restaurants match if not surpass the places I visited and the prices are so much better!

I would suggest lemeac if you want Bistro food-it has a great terrace to boot. I would suggest Brunoise for the exception food / price value and the fact it's a fun and casual atmosphere. If Club Chasse et Peche is open go there with a walk in old Montreal to add to the evening-great food.

For a great italian-well new Italian go to Bronté...

Happy dining

Alida

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Just curious Alida - where did you eat in NYC? Having been a resident of NYC for many years and just returning to Montreal (for the summer!) I'm really curious to know how you can draw this conclusion.

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Hi. Sorry for late reply. I ate at Pastis, Bolo, the café restaurant at the new MOMA, and Gramercy Tavern. I also went to Public in Nolita for Brunch. Lunches were had at the Pain Quotidien outlets which had opened up in the city and a couple of other places which were so forgetable I don't recall the names. I had drinks at Flute which was nice.

Alida

Alida

[docsconz]

Of these restaurants only Gramercy Tavern is still considereed a top restaurant in NYC nowadays, although the others still should have been good. Nevertheless, the top end of what Montreal has to offer is certainly at least competetive with NYC in terms of quality and generally quite a bit less expensive, especially when considering the exchange.

[Bux]

I like Pastis a lot, but I certainly wouldn't rate is as impressive. I was very disappointed at the Modern Bar. The chef, based on my experience at his last restaurant, is capable of so much more. I wouldn't expect better at the cafe. Bolo was hugely disappointing when I was there. Good tapas, but dreadful main courses that were really sub par. I saw no sign of the three stars it got from whoever reviewed it last for the NY Times. Gramercy Tavern is the only one on the list that probably deserved a place on a short stay in NY, although, as I said, I do like Pastis.

I have not been to Montreal in well over a decade. I made a few trips back then on purpose and just passing through, and they included two visits to l'Express. I was favorably impressed, enough so after the first visit to make a second one. Restaurants change drastically over far shorter periods than ten years. So I can't say how I'd judge it today. I think we've also caught up in that regard. We have places that remind me of France in the way that l'Express reminded me of France without being a phoney Disneyland interpretation of France. Thus is also might be less impressive to a New Yorker today. I do remember my dollar going a lot further in Montreal than in NY for food and wine, and I expect that's still true today. Traveling in Europe these days, I'm getting a taste of that medicine, so I can sympathize.

If the situation hasn't changed, the best way to impress a New Yorker in Montreal may well be to buy him a bagel. I'm serious and I suspect most of you know why. Although a bit too skinny, bagels in Montreal are most like the ones I knew as a child in New York City. They have the right flavor and texture. I suspect Montreal can't touch Manhattan at the luxury high end of haute cuisine and it's probably not worth trying to prove how close it comes. Stick to the middle ground of casual and better bistros where most people eat most often and your friend may well be inpressed one way or the other. It's always hard to know what to expect in terms of personal taste, especially in food.

[Alida Gualtieri]

I like Pastis a lot, but I certainly wouldn't rate is as impressive. I was very disappointed at the Modern Bar. The chef, based on my experience at his last restaurant, is capable of so much more. I wouldn't expect better at the cafe. Bolo was hugely disappointing when I was there. Good tapas, but dreadful main courses that were really sub par. I saw no sign of the three stars it got from whoever reviewed it last for the NY Times. Gramercy Tavern is the only one on the list that probably deserved a place on a short stay in NY, although, as I said, I do like Pastis.

I have not been to Montreal in well over a decade. I made a few trips back then on purpose and just passing through, and they included two visits to l'Express. I was favorably impressed, enough so after the first visit to make a second one. Restaurants change drastically over far shorter periods than ten years. So I can't say how I'd judge it today. I think we've also caught up in that regard. We have places that remind me of France in the way that l'Express reminded me of France without being a phoney Disneyland interpretation of France. Thus is also might be less impressive to a New Yorker today. I do remember my dollar going a lot further in Montreal than in NY for food and wine, and I expect that's still true today. Traveling in Europe these days, I'm getting a taste of that medicine, so I can sympathize.

If the situation hasn't changed, the best way to impress a New Yorker in Montreal may well be to buy him a bagel. I'm serious and I suspect most of you know why. Although a bit too skinny, bagels in Montreal are most like the ones I knew as a child in New York City. They have the right flavor and texture. I suspect Montreal can't touch Manhattan at the luxury high end of haute cuisine and it's probably not worth trying to prove how close it comes. Stick to the middle ground of casual and better bistros where most people eat most often and your friend may well be inpressed one way or the other. It's always hard to know what to expect in terms of personal taste, especially in food.

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In the high end category-I dare say La Chronique would hold it's own to many of the top places in NY-at least that is what the Parisian foodies I sent there recently told me..

Alida

[Alida Gualtieri]

I like Pastis a lot, but I certainly wouldn't rate is as impressive. I was very disappointed at the Modern Bar. The chef, based on my experience at his last restaurant, is capable of so much more. I wouldn't expect better at the cafe. Bolo was hugely disappointing when I was there. Good tapas, but dreadful main courses that were really sub par. I saw no sign of the three stars it got from whoever reviewed it last for the NY Times. Gramercy Tavern is the only one on the list that probably deserved a place on a short stay in NY, although, as I said, I do like Pastis.

I have not been to Montreal in well over a decade. I made a few trips back then on purpose and just passing through, and they included two visits to l'Express. I was favorably impressed, enough so after the first visit to make a second one. Restaurants change drastically over far shorter periods than ten years. So I can't say how I'd judge it today. I think we've also caught up in that regard. We have places that remind me of France in the way that l'Express reminded me of France without being a phoney Disneyland interpretation of France. Thus is also might be less impressive to a New Yorker today. I do remember my dollar going a lot further in Montreal than in NY for food and wine, and I expect that's still true today. Traveling in Europe these days, I'm getting a taste of that medicine, so I can sympathize.

If the situation hasn't changed, the best way to impress a New Yorker in Montreal may well be to buy him a bagel. I'm serious and I suspect most of you know why. Although a bit too skinny, bagels in Montreal are most like the ones I knew as a child in New York City. They have the right flavor and texture. I suspect Montreal can't touch Manhattan at the luxury high end of haute cuisine and it's probably not worth trying to prove how close it comes. Stick to the middle ground of casual and better bistros where most people eat most often and your friend may well be inpressed one way or the other. It's always hard to know what to expect in terms of personal taste, especially in food.

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Oops forgot to mention that I had the same experience as you did at BOLO-which I wanted to try as I was in the mood for some spanish style food -and they had room on a last minute call. (I had left the restaurant reservations to my travelling companion-who did not reserve at places I really wanted to try so we were stuck calling places at last minute-which is not a great idea at any time in NY-especially the weekend) I had the same experience as you did at Café restaurant at the Met-the meal was very ordinary and very expensive for what it was-and service was sloppy-so it will need some work-although of course the place was packed to the gills so to speak..

I agree that Montreal bagels are the best and I will not touch any other type of bagel-what is it in the US with bagels that look like they are on steroids and lack any type of flavour whatsoever...

Alida

[Vinfidel]

Having eaten at Bolo many times I can confirm that the service can be sloppy, but I've never had the experience that the food was anything but fabulous. More to the point: we have nothing even remotely similar to it in Montreal. I also love Gramercy Tavern, but I wouldn't classify it as one of NYC's best. Pastis, as with all of McNally's restaurants, is about consistency and see-and-be-seen. It's one of NYC's 50+ L'Expresses!

La Chronique is awesome because it is uniquely Montrealais; hip but not standoffish, with all the $ on the plate (certainly not on the decor). I certainly wouldn't call it "high-end," certainly not if you are comparing to NYC's high-end.

My point from my last comment was a four-day trip to NYC will reveal very little about the true depth of that city's gastro capabilities. I'm not just talking high-end, I also include the regular middle of the road eateries that are really incredible. The pizza, the bread, the markets, the fish, etc. Places like Casa Mono and Bar Jamon (200 bottles of wine on the list, all of them high QPR) don't exist here. For whatever reason: size, money, apathy we cannot compete with NYC on these fronts but we can compete with how much spirit and pride Montrealers have about our certainly more modest goodies.

One thing that shocks me about Montreal is our crappy bakeries. Where can one get a real Parisian baguette here? I'm talking crispy on the outside, soft and ethereal on the inside... I tried Au Pain Dore on Peel St., Olive & Gourmando, the breadshop inside Atwater Market - all of them substandard. How come we don't have Le Pain Quotidien here?!

If I were a restaurant entrepreneur, I would buy all the junky restaurants in and around Place Jacques Cartier and turn them into entry-level gastro-destinations that could be open year-round and would show the tourist masses just how much we love our food and wine in Montreal!

And yes, I agree - we have the best bagels in the world here!

Edited June 17, 2005 by Vinfidel (log)

[docsconz]

I suspect Montreal can't touch Manhattan at the luxury high end of haute cuisine and it's probably not worth trying to prove how close it comes. Stick to the middle ground of casual and better bistros where most people eat most often and your friend may well be inpressed one way or the other. It's always hard to know what to expect in terms of personal taste, especially in food.

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Bux, this is where Montreal has really improved over the last ten years or so. At its best, Montreal rivals NYC. It just doesn't have the depth or breadth of dining choices in The Big Apple. To me the most unique (in a good way) restaurant in Montreal is Les Chevres. It is unlike anyplace I have ever been to in NYC or elsewhere. I have had some truly outstanding and extremely memorable meals at Toque, comparable to almost anything in New York. I have never had better foie gras anywhere than what I have had at Toque.

As for the bagels - I love them, although as a preference they really are an acquired taste. I think most New Yorkers (and most that I know who have had both) who have cut their teeth on contemporary steroid laden NYC bagels will still prefer them as I would expect Montrealers would prefer their own. A lot certainly depends on how fresh they are. NYC bagels freeze better, but it is hard to beat a freshly baked St. Viateur poppy seed bagel!

[docsconz]

Despite the city's heterogeneity, the area I think Montreal really lags compared to NYC is with ethnic restaurants. While not bad in Montreal, NYC remains miles ahead in this category.

[Vinfidel]

Bux, this is where Montreal has really improved over the last ten years or so. At its best, Montreal rivals NYC. It just doesn't have the depth or breadth of dining choices in The Big Apple. To me the most unique (in a good way) restaurant in Montreal is Les Chevres. It is unlike anyplace I have ever been to in NYC or elsewhere. I have had some truly outstanding and extremely memorable meals at Toque, comparable to almost anything in New York. I have never had better foie gras anywhere than what I have had at Toque.

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I guess we need to define what we mean by "high-end." Just the food? The decor as well? Breadth of wine list? Silverware, stemware?

Doc, not sure if you have been to the new Toque. I too had fond memories of the old one, but the new one simply sucks. Rude service. The room is cold (literally - freezing cold even on a warm summer day), acres of space b/w tables. Food was good but not as good as I remember it on the tiny space on St. Denis. The wine list is obscenely expensive and I was "pooh-poohed" because I was drinking by the glass (their half-bottle list is outrageous and since I often dine alone, it's all that makes sense for me). It's also become very VERY expensive but I peeked at their lunch menu and it does seem extremely reasonable especially in contrast to the awe-inspiring prices for dinner (for Montreal!)

[docsconz]

Bux, this is where Montreal has really improved over the last ten years or so. At its best, Montreal rivals NYC. It just doesn't have the depth or breadth of dining choices in The Big Apple. To me the most unique (in a good way) restaurant in Montreal is Les Chevres. It is unlike anyplace I have ever been to in NYC or elsewhere. I have had some truly outstanding and extremely memorable meals at Toque, comparable to almost anything in New York. I have never had better foie gras anywhere than what I have had at Toque.

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I guess we need to define what we mean by "high-end." Just the food? The decor as well? Breadth of wine list? Silverware, stemware?

Doc, not sure if you have been to the new Toque. I too had fond memories of the old one, but the new one simply sucks. Rude service. The room is cold (literally - freezing cold even on a warm summer day), acres of space b/w tables. Food was good but not as good as I remember it on the tiny space on St. Denis. The wine list is obscenely expensive and I was "pooh-poohed" because I was drinking by the glass (their half-bottle list is outrageous and since I often dine alone, it's all that makes sense for me). It's also become very VERY expensive but I peeked at their lunch menu and it does seem extremely reasonable especially in contrast to the awe-inspiring prices for dinner (for Montreal!)

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No, I haven't been to the new Toque and what you say is distressing. That is truly a shame if they have lost a lot of what made the restaurant special.

When I am talking "high end" I am generally referring to the food. While Montreal has some lovely restaurants, the decor etc. is generally quite limited compared to what can be found in NYC. Unfortunately, often the "high-end" decor is simply a matter of style over substance. While I like a beautiful environment as much as the next guy, the quality of the food, cooking and service remains of utmost importance to me when evaluating a restaurant.

[Vinfidel]

No, I haven't been to the new Toque and what you say is distressing. That is truly a shame if they have lost a lot of what made the restaurant special.

When I am talking "high end" I am generally referring to the food. While Montreal has some lovely restaurants, the decor etc. is generally quite limited compared to what can be found in NYC. Unfortunately, often the "high-end" decor is simply a matter of style over substance. While I like a beautiful environment as much as the next guy, the quality of the food, cooking and service remains of utmost importance to me when evaluating a restaurant.

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I agree that we have great foie gras and game, but we have substandard beef, pork, and chicken. I won't dismiss that NYC has a lot of style over substance but it also has a lot of style + substance.

The truth is that Toque has a brand, and it is probably YUL's most famous resto but I loathe to take out of towners to the new place. Lesley is their last staunch defender, they have seriously gone down the drain. I hate to say it but Laprise is not as HUNGRY as he once was, and their service and food quality has slipped. Plus the prices have risen to pay the bills of the Caisse and that hurts the consumer in the end.

Edited June 18, 2005 by Vinfidel (log)

[docsconz]

No, I haven't been to the new Toque and what you say is distressing. That is truly a shame if they have lost a lot of what made the restaurant special.

When I am talking "high end" I am generally referring to the food. While Montreal has some lovely restaurants, the decor etc. is generally quite limited compared to what can be found in NYC. Unfortunately, often the "high-end" decor is simply a matter of style over substance. While I like a beautiful environment as much as the next guy, the quality of the food, cooking and service remains of utmost importance to me when evaluating a restaurant.

←

I agree that we have great foie gras and game, but we have substandard beef, pork, and chicken. I won't dismiss that NYC has a lot of style over substance but it also has a lot of style + substance.

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No doubt and when this is the case, it makes for a truly special meal.

[Lesley C]

Bad news, Vinfidel, Toque!, as of June 1, is closed for lunch.

I have a lot of complaints about the new Toque!. I dropped them half a star when I reviewed them last year.

HOWEVER, I trust Laprise can grow into that horrible room. The fact that the service is cold and doesn't appear to have improved is distressing. As for wine, that has never been their forte or interest. Too bad, but there it is.

No matter what, I'm an optimist when it comes to Toque!. Laprise has his highs and lows. He's been on a low food-wise IMO since moving. But maybe the tide is about to turn.

Anyone who dined there on the night of the restaurant's 10th anniversary (the one with all the old Dom Perignon paired with the tasting menu) knows that this chef -- at his best -- is a force of nature.

As for NY vs. Montreal, I haven't been to NY in ages, but I do remember the service being lousy. Even at Gramercy Tavern where my waiter was so shy and akward that it made me nervous. In Montreal, all the top restaurants offer superb, smart service.

But one thing Montreal does have going for it is that most of our top chefs are local boys. Most of the top chefs in NY -- Vongerichten, Boulud, Ripert, Ducasse etc -- are from France.

Otherwise the NY restaurant coffee is pretty shitty, as in weak. I had a cafe au lait at Balthazar that was laughable.

One thing I really loved about NY was that I saw a ton of young people in restaurants, something you just don't see in Montreal. And I also loved the young NY chefs who were so cool and enthusiastic. And then there's just the sheer size of the place and the choice. I mean you can go to what the East Village and have Thanksgiving dinner at the Chat and Chew and then head to Babbo for a mind-blowing Italian meal. Wow. That's another Montreal weakness, Italian cuisine.

But as for ethnic, Jennifer Bain of the Toronto Star wrote a column a few years ago saying that we actually had terrific ethnic restaurants in Montreal.

Keep in mind, though, these places are beyond casual. But the high-end ethnic restaurants will come. Anise and Raza are two interesting examples.

Edited June 18, 2005 by Lesley C (log)

[docsconz]

But as for ethnic, Jennifer Bains of the Toronto Star wrote a column a few years ago saying that we actually had terrific ethnic restaurants in Montreal, in her opinion, superior to Toronto.

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Montreal may have them, but they must be relatively well hidden. I'm certainly not saying that Montreal is devoid of good ethnic cuisine - that would be absurd. However, compared to New York and per my experience, Toronto as well, I believe that it remains a relative weakness. But then this area is a particular strength of New York, especially outside of Manhatten.

I really hope Laprise makes the new Toque work. He is too good a chef to have a less than stellar restaurant. I will watch reports with great interest.

[Lesley C]

No Docsconz, sorry, I edited my post while you were posting.

I went back and read Bain's article and she doesn't claim Mtl has better ethnic restaurants, just different ones.

Sorry about that. The edited post is correct.

[docsconz]

I'll have to try them, sometime. Perhaps one of my problems vis a vis ethnic restaurants in Montreal is that they are not high on my priority list when I go there. There are always some great tried and trues as well as exciting new restaurants to try. Plus I don't get there as often as I would like.