Starting a restaurant in Philly

[Lazrowp]

Latest Perspectives:

Perspective A: Entering the restaurant. The fixed seats and counter/conveyor belt/bar are on the left and on the right are some 2-tops.

Perspective B: Looking towards the entrance. The conveyor belt is on the right as well as the bar area and fixed seats by the conveyor belt. There are some 2-tops on the left.

Perspective C: Looking towards the back of the restaurant. The conveyor belt is on the left and perpendicular to the belt are some booths. There are some 2-tops on the right.

Paul

[mrbigjas]

paul, are those three options you're looking at? i kinda like the bar better than the booths, but if it was a bar and two-tops only, you couldn't have more than two or three people eat together.

i guess with the booths you couldn't have more than four, so maybe it's not that much of a difference.

or maybe the restaurant isn't supposed to be for groups, really, being a small space and conveyor belt sushi and all.

[Lazrowp]

paul, are those three options you're looking at?  i kinda like the bar better than the booths, but if it was a bar and two-tops only, you couldn't have more than two or three people eat together.

i guess with the booths you couldn't have more than four, so maybe it's not that much of a difference.

or maybe the restaurant isn't supposed to be for groups, really, being a small space and conveyor belt sushi and all.

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The 3 perspectives posted are all from the same design; they are just different viewpoints within the space.

The plan is to have 3 sections of seating. Section #1 is the individual fixed seating by the conveyor belt. Section #2 is the booth seating (each booth is the 6-person size). Section #3 consists of the 2-tops that are on the opposite wall away from the conveyor belt. Really, we wanted to only have the seating by the conveyor belt (sections #1 & #2), but since we have the room, the 2-top seating against the wall wase added to our plan.

Conveyor belt sushi, when you just look at the fixed individual seating area, has a tough time with large groups (4 persons and above) as the persons on each end are far away and conversation is tough. For this reason we thought it was important to have the 6-person booths.

Paul

[mrbigjas]

ooooh i get it now. that makes sense.

[philadining]

Paul,

that looks like a nice design, I think the booths next to the conveyor is a great idea for all the reasons you mentioned.

One thing: so how do the two-tops get their food?

[Lazrowp]

so how do the two-tops get their food?

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We plan to have table-service for the 2-tops in the same manner as a traditional restaurant. There will also be a small area where someone can go over to the conveyor belt and grab some sushi plates themselves if they wanted some more immediate satisfaction. Drink orders all must go through an ordering process.

Paul

[Lazrowp]

Construction

Well, construction has begun!!!!! I don't have a firm schedule yet as the 1st push is to finish the demo and build out the vanilla shell (HVAC install, sprinklers, electric upgrade, fix the floor...) which my landlord is responsible for. As my architect says this is the most frustrating time....working with the unions, unexpected problems, inspections, but so far everybody and everything has been smooth, apart from the massive construction delay. I guess everybody is nice until there is a problem. For me the worst is not knowing when the finish date will be.

Paul

[Scoats]

Could you tell us how much a Philadelphia County liquor license is going for these days? Thanks.

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After you promise your 1st male born child, figure about $70,000. How much was your liscense in the Northeast?

Paul

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Philadelphia is unique, being a combined city and county, that licenses are transerable anywhere within the city and therefore only have one price no matter where they are.

Licenses were $20K to $25K 12 years ago. Our deal for builidng, license, business, etc valued the license at $25K.

[Lazrowp]

Philadelphia is unique, being a combined city and county, that licenses are transerable anywhere within the city and therefore only have one price no matter where they are.

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I agree about a Philadelphia Liquor License being transferable anywhere within Philadelphia, but each license price can be different I think. Each license price can be different because there are no new licenses that are being issued by the State and there is only a secondary market for licenses, which is basically monopolized by 2 or 3 Liquor Lawyers, and each license is sold at the seller's discretion / buyer’s agreement.

Paul

[Scoats]

I agree about a Philadelphia Liquor License being transferable anywhere within Philadelphia, but each license price can be different I think.  Each license price can be different because there are no new licenses that are being issued by the State and there is only a secondary market for licenses, which is basically monopolized by 2 or 3 Liquor Lawyers, and each license is sold at the seller's discretion / buyer’s agreement. 

Paul

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You did include "in the Northeast" in your quesiton, so I figured that into my answer.

There are a handhold of Liquor License brokers who sell all the inactive licenses. An active license is usually sold with a business, and would be factored into the price by any intelligent seller. $20-$25K was the going rate 12 years ago; that's what the brokers were getting. It's amazing how much they have gone up in value, not that it does me any good at the moment.

In PA, there is a dodge around the license quotas. If you have enough space, you can be a hotel. There are no quotas for hotel licenses and therefore they have no value. All you have to do to get one is to be zoned as a hotel and pay the $1170 annual fee. I think you only need about 6 rooms with a bed and chair to qualify as a hotel. These rooms can be rented by the month. In fact the owner can rent one to use as an office.

[bjcohan]

Paul, I'm late to this thread as I've been away from the forum for quite a long time. (There is little time for forum cruising when you run a restaurant AND work a full time job besides!) I think it's great of you to share your experiences, although this has brought back some of the nightmares my husband and I went through 6 1/2 years ago when we were preparing to open our restaurant.

Since we didn't have people from whom to borrow, we financed everything ourselves and took a second mortgage on the house to do it. That limited us insofar as location was concerned, so we're in the Northeast although our concept (upscale French-Mexican, a far cry from CBS sushi!) is more suited to downtown. Hopefully, we will make the move downtown in the next couple of years.

I wish I had seen this thread earlier, because I could have steered you clear of some of the smaller headaches. (For example, to get the license, someone told us to go to the satellite office of City Hall in the northeast. We did, and had everything done in 15 minutes with no lines.)

I look forward to your opening. I'll try to stay on top of this thread to cheer you on!

Best,

Barb

[MarketStEl]

[in PA, there is a dodge around the license quotas. If you have enough space, you can be a hotel. There are no quotas for hotel licenses and therefore they have no value. All you have to do to get one is to be zoned as a hotel and pay the $1170 annual fee. I think you only need about 6 rooms with a bed and chair to qualify as a hotel. These rooms can be rented by the month. In fact the owner can rent one to use as an office.

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I assume that holders of hotel licenses can serve alcohol on Sundays with no additional requirements?

(There is something in the state liquor laws that requires holders of other liquor licenses to serve food in order to offer alcohol for sale on Sunday, isn't there? Someone please correct me if I am wrong.)

In any case, this little tidbit appears to me to explain the creation of the gayborhood "bed-and-breakfast" known as Uncles Upstairs Inn, located above the bar of the same name on Locust Street. There is a kitchen in the building, but the bar does not serve food on a regular basis. It has offered a menu from time to time, usually for stretches of a month or two, and I've always assumed that this was done to keep the LCB folks off their backs. Every other gay bar in the city serves food--well, I'm not sure about the Bike Stop now--and all are open on Sundays. I imagine that for some--maybe even most--of these establishments, the food service operates at a loss, which is more than made up for by the bar business.

[Scoats]

I assume that holders of hotel licenses can serve alcohol on Sundays with no additional requirements?

(There is something in the state liquor laws that requires holders of other liquor licenses to serve food in order to offer alcohol for sale on Sunday, isn't there?  Someone please correct me if I am wrong.)

In any case, this little tidbit appears to me to explain the creation of the gayborhood "bed-and-breakfast" known as Uncles Upstairs Inn, located above the bar of the same name on Locust Street.  There is a kitchen in the building, but the bar does not serve food on a regular basis.  It has offered a menu from time to time, usually for stretches of a month or two, and I've always assumed that this was done to keep the LCB folks off their backs.  Every other gay bar in the city serves food--well, I'm not sure about the Bike Stop now--and all are open on Sundays.  I imagine that for some--maybe even most--of these establishments, the food service operates at a loss, which is more than made up for by the bar business.

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Legally there are no bars in Pennsylvania, only restaurants with liquor licenses. Every licensee, except maybe club licenses, are required by law to serve food. Food can be hotdogs but must more than just pretzels and chips.

Up until a few months ago, to open on Sunday, a licensee's food sales had to be 30% or more of total sales. That this translated as was to be open on Sundays, a bar had to pay 6% state sales tax on 30% or more of their total sales. This requirement was waived after distributors were allowed Sunday sales.

You are quite right that Uncles may in fact be a hotel and not restaurant.

[MarketStEl]

Construction

Well, construction has begun!!!!!  I don't have a firm schedule yet as the 1st push is to finish the demo and build out the vanilla shell (HVAC install, sprinklers, electric upgrade, fix the floor...) which my landlord is responsible for.  As my architect says this is the most frustrating time....working with the unions, unexpected problems, inspections, but so far everybody and everything has been smooth, apart from the massive construction delay.  I guess everybody is nice until there is a problem.  For me the worst is not knowing when the finish date will be. 

Paul

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So where do things stand now?

It's kinda hard to tell behind the brown paper covering the windows.

The bridal shop that occupied your space looks like it's OK up a couple of blocks and around the corner.

[Lazrowp]

So where do things stand now?

It's kinda hard to tell behind the brown paper covering the windows.

The bridal shop that occupied your space looks like it's OK up a couple of blocks and around the corner.

←

I am happy that the bridal salon seems to be doing well around the corner and I wish them success at their new location.

My Update on where things stand: So I finally successfully communicated with the construction manager last week. Although he did not have a final construction price for me (I am still on pins and needles waiting for this number – which could ultimately alter the current planned design finishes) he did give me an estimate as to when I could open my doors for business. He said: “Philly is not like NYC, the unions are tougher, we are still doing extra demolition, we are still waiting on quotations, things really slow down at the end of the year, blah, blah, blah, yada, yada, yada, you should be able to open by late-January.” After my initial shock, I found the nearest rock to crawl under, and tried to not freak-out too much over the newest estimate for our opening date. I then reluctantly communicated this conversation to my family. I was embarrassed that my estimation was so far off but everybody was understanding. I know that the delay is not my fault but I felt like a sucker for believing/hoping I could open 1st in September, then October, then November. Anyway, construction on the vanilla shell is progressing, but I think that the construction company has other more priority jobs. On a positive note, I received my liquor license last week!

Paul

[AK@Spicehouse]

Construction

Well, construction has begun!!!!!  I don't have a firm schedule yet as the 1st push is to finish the demo and build out the vanilla shell (HVAC install, sprinklers, electric upgrade, fix the floor...) which my landlord is responsible for.   As my architect says this is the most frustrating time....working with the unions, unexpected problems, inspections, but so far everybody and everything has been smooth, apart from the massive construction delay.  I guess everybody is nice until there is a problem.  For me the worst is not knowing when the finish date will be. 

Paul

←

So where do things stand now?

It's kinda hard to tell behind the brown paper covering the windows.

The bridal shop that occupied your space looks like it's OK up a couple of blocks and around the corner.

←

I have read the complete startup from start to today. Very impressive. I have changed jobs and now work for a fish company in NY. We visit Philadelphia on Tuesdays and Thursdays. High end stuff, Sashimi grade Ahi, Ono, Opah, Hamachi. I can get you 30 days to start, revolve from there, after reading your great plan. Email me at Allan@seastarfoods.com... I'll get you some info.

[Pam R]

After you promise your 1st male born child, figure about $70,000.  How much was your liscense in the Northeast?

Wow... that's a little more than the $300 ours cost when we were liscensed. But then, I believe you Americans can actually make money on your alcohol sales.

I also just came across your thread. It's great to see how well thought out your plan was - and unfortunate to see the delays you are faced with.

We just relocated our business this summer. We sold our building that housed 6000 square feet - including a restaurant, huge catering kitchen and a ton of offices and storage. We've moved into a new 2500 foot location. No real restaurant - jsut a few tables for people who want to eat something from our showcases. The place we moved into had been a food store with a small kitchen - so we weren't going from scratch, but it still took months to get things done. We thought we'd be up and running by late August or early September, but our kitchen wasn't operational until a week and a half ago. The health department wouldn't let us use our kitchen until October 3rd (even though we moved our business and weren't a new business).

What's my point? It's SO frustrating! You may be ready to see some action, but you have to wait for so many other people to get their jobs done. Don't be embarrassed - it happens. You'll get up and running and you'll be the only one to remember how late it happened. I have customers that come in every week or so, and I keep saying 'just another week or two'. Two months later, they're still coming in. Just have faith.

I can't wait to see some pictures of the restaurant once it's done. The drawings look great and from what everybody says it sounds like it's a great location for your idea. We have a couple of these restaurants here - they're lots of fun to go to - but the locations aren't great so I don't go.

Good luck!

[MarketStEl]

Somewhat related to this last post:

The Caribou Café, the popular French bistro across the street from where Paul will open, closed in mid-August for remodeling, with signs posted stating they would reopen Sept. 4. (Usually, such signs are restaurant-speak for "We've gone out of business," but as those are usually not accompanied by a specific reopening date, this was legit.)

Sept. 4 came and went, and they remained closed. Signs stated "We will reopen in a week," and the dining room filled with kitchen equipment.

One week later, the dining room was still filled with kitchen equipment and the restaurant was still closed.

They finally reopened around Sept. 15.

Murphy's Law still has not been repealed.

[herbacidal]

So where do things stand now?

It's kinda hard to tell behind the brown paper covering the windows.

The bridal shop that occupied your space looks like it's OK up a couple of blocks and around the corner.

←

I am happy that the bridal salon seems to be doing well around the corner and I wish them success at their new location.

My Update on where things stand: So I finally successfully communicated with the construction manager last week. Although he did not have a final construction price for me (I am still on pins and needles waiting for this number – which could ultimately alter the current planned design finishes) he did give me an estimate as to when I could open my doors for business. He said: “Philly is not like NYC, the unions are tougher, we are still doing extra demolition, we are still waiting on quotations, things really slow down at the end of the year, blah, blah, blah, yada, yada, yada, you should be able to open by late-January.” After my initial shock, I found the nearest rock to crawl under, and tried to not freak-out too much over the newest estimate for our opening date. I then reluctantly communicated this conversation to my family. I was embarrassed that my estimation was so far off but everybody was understanding. I know that the delay is not my fault but I felt like a sucker for believing/hoping I could open 1st in September, then October, then November. Anyway, construction on the vanilla shell is progressing, but I think that the construction company has other more priority jobs. On a positive note, I received my liquor license last week!

Paul

←

Now that's more like the construction schedule I expected.

It's why I asked when you started paying rent.

Get a construction estimate from him at least, or a range, to help you narrow it down.

[MarketStEl]

I see that the boards have gone up around the restaurant-to-be, although the "Bridals by Danielle" awning hasn't come down yet.

I guess construction of the vanilla shell has begun in earnest?

[Lazrowp]

I see that the boards have gone up around the restaurant-to-be, although the "Bridals by Danielle" awning hasn't come down yet.

I guess construction of the vanilla shell has begun in earnest?

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Yup! The awning will some down when the construction crew actually demolishes the entrance so that they can install the new facade. The vanilla shell work is still really just beginning though. My costs came back a bit higher than expected and now "we" are considering redesigns with the aim of reducing the overall costs, as well as raising more $$$. Why is this taking so long? Well I have been told that the reason why this is taking so long is that the Philly Unions are so busy now that they have too much work, as well as their usual end of year slow down due to the weather / vacations.

[Lazrowp]

Sooo…...I received an email from the Philadelphia Weekly several months ago and they wanted to interview me about this thread. Of course I agreed and Kristen Henri and I met once and we spoke about E-Gullet and thread I started, my dream, my passion, the processes I had been through, and progress. She asked me not to say anything at about speaking with “The Press” and I agreed. Time passed, we chatted some more, and about two weeks ago Kristen asked me for an update and I told her I just received my newest construction cost quote and it was more that I had planned. I told her honestly that my budget was off due to my naiveté and the union cost of construction. I also explained that my original design was WAY too expensive and that in order to get the construction price to within an acceptable range we (myself, my architect, the general contractor) decided to eliminate the funky ceiling and walls as well as a prep kitchen downstairs. Things would be tight during prep time, but my sushi chef said we would still have enough room upstairs to do our food prep. Anyway the bid came back after the re-design still really high.

At this point I feel I have to consider walking away from this project and taking a small loss now and save some money, compared to getting the doors open and possibly loosing a lot more later. The article Kristen wrote is pretty accurate…..although the original construction delay had nothing to do with me switching from a non-union to a union crew - the delay was due to a decision my landlords made regarding which union crew they were going to use for their vanilla shell build out.

Paul

[philadining]

Wow, Paul, sorry to hear that you have to consider walking away. I certainly hope there's some way for you to make the project happen, I think you've got a great concept! But from the details in the article, I can certainly understand how it would look overwhelming. And I think your case should be instructive for the city as a whole, to get the process streamlined a bit, so that you're JUST facing construction delays, not all the other hassles too.

Again, I hope that we'll see some more posts here from you saying that things are working out, good luck!!

[mrbigjas]

paul, i really hope it doesn't come down to you having to bail on this project. it's been very enlightening (and kind of maddening) reading about this process--i was hoping it would end well...

[MarketStEl]

Walked past the site yesterday (Sunday 12/11) and saw a Michael Salove Company "Lease Space" sign on the enclosure wall.

So have you actually pulled the plug, Paul?