david shaw charges friends for wine

[Harry Covére]

From the LA Times:

"(We would split the cost of any bottle we bought at the restaurant when we split the entire bill at the end of the evening, so I've always felt that the proper etiquette with a bottle from my cellar is that we split my original cost on the bottle. This saves everyone money since it's always less than we would pay for a heavily marked-up restaurant bottle. Everyone we've eaten with has seemed to appreciate both the savings and the wine — which is generally older and better than what most restaurants have at the same price.)"

Does anybody else charge their friends for the wine they bring to a dinner party or restaurant?

Shaw responds to allegations of being a cheap-ass in and email posted in the Wine Spectator forums:

"well, all i can say is i'm not rich, andi can't afford to give away bottles of wine from my cellar several nights a week, no matter how much i like and enjoy sharing wine with my friends. i don't get any psyhic income from folks' expressions of appreciation and i sure hope i don't preen in response. my friends don't "worry" about what their share of my wine will cost because they know me well enough to know that i won't bring something beyond their means."

[Fat Guy]

I have an acquaintance who does it that way. He has an incredible wine collection and he'll get a bunch of people together for dinner at a restaurant to have a meal and drink great wines, and the group splits the cost of the wine. He's not profiting from the venture -- he's just trying to cover some of his costs. So long as the arrangement is disclosed up front, I have no problem with it.

[Harry Covére]

I have an acquaintance who does it that way. He has an incredible wine collection and he'll get a bunch of people together for dinner at a restaurant to have a meal and drink great wines, and the group splits the cost of the wine. He's not profiting from the venture -- he's just trying to cover some of his costs. So long as the arrangement is disclosed up front, I have no problem with it.

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yes, FG, but would you actually propose such an arrangement to your "friends" before going out to dinner?

[Really Nice!]

Does anybody else charge their friends for the wine they bring to a dinner party or restaurant?

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This behavior really irks me. I've been collecting wine for many years. It gives me great pleasure all the way from performing 'the hunt' for my favorites to cellaring to even scanning my database and looking for holes that need to be filled in the collection. I love it, it's very satisfying. My collection currently has ~800 bottles with an average price of $78 a bottle.

I would never, ever consider charging friends for opening a bottle of my choosing from my collection. And there have been many impressive bottles. 82 Lafite, 81, 82, 83 Penfolds Grange vertical, 86 Mouton, 59 Gruaud Larose, 93 Dalla Valle Maya, 88 and 90 d'Yquem, 82 Petrus, and many, many more...

I'm in a wine tasting club and have always offered a wine that matches that evening's theme without subjecting other members to a bill for the wine. One former member used to charge us for bottles he took out of his cellar when he hosted the party. I didn't like this because these bottles were purchased before the club was organized. When purchasing the bottles was it his intent to charge people for them, probably not. The cost was his; not mine. This came to a head when at the end of one tasting he raised the bill for those in attendence because two people didn't show up. I found that very offensive and politely declined all his future hostings. He is no longer in the club.

If you pay for something, you pay for it. If you consume the bottle yourself who is going to contribute to the cost? No one. It doesn't matter if you drink it yourself, with your best friends, or you drop it. The bottle is gone.

Now, if you're planning a dinner with friends and you purchase a bottle specifically for that dinner, that is okay to share the cost. But bottles that are already in your collection are your expense and yours alone.

My 2¢

Your values may vary.

Edited April 22, 2005 by Really Nice! (log)

[Osnav]

When we eat out with friends we always divide the bill by the number of participants (including any wine that has been bought and comsumed). If someone has a interesting wine they want to bring to the restaurant, and if I am informed ahead of time and agree to the wine; I don't mind sharing the cost.

But when I have guests in my home I never ask friends to share in the cost of the wines we drink.

[Brithack]

APPALLING taste ! I'm amazed he has any 'friends' left with whom to dine. I can't think of any better means of showing one's total lack of charm, generosity - both material and spiritual - or bonhomie. I'm also really surprised that others have posted that they have a similar arrangement within their circle of acquaintances. I've never heard of anything similar in Britain or Europe.

[Rebel Rose]

I think I am on both sides of the fence about this.

Some people dine out almost every night of the week, particularly in a metropolis where travel can be complicated and shopping almost as expensive as dining. It also saves time as one can eat and network with associates or visit with friends. Mr. Shaw mentioned that he takes bottles out 'several nights' a week, so if he has a regular table night with friends who look forward to his contributions and do appreciate the cost savings over the restaurant offerings, why not?

On the other hand, we have an, ahem, family friend who is always bringing us 'old' wines as if they were rare treasures, but he doesn't know anything about wine, really, and has generally terrible taste. Plus, he can't seem to tell when a wine is past its peak and will happily trudge through it, expecting us to like it as well. My SO, a winemaker, will be very blunt about it which leaves me in the tedious position of playing family peacemaker and saying, "Oh, but I like it."

We learned early on not to dine out, because FF would bring 6 bottles, sometimes magnums, to the table. Now we always suggest dining at home, so SO can pull out some other wines (not necessarily ours, but from our cellar) and I can cook, which gives me opportunities to keep misplacing my glass.

[Chris Amirault]

Like Mary, I'm on both sides of the fence here, depending utterly on the expectations of my guests -- invariably a few of our very close friends.

Though we occasionally throw a blow-out dinner party, most meals I host or attend are informal affairs involving a regular set of folks who insist on bringing desserts or wine, who invite us over in turn, or if they don't cook, who take us out to dinner. That is to say, my circle of friends consists of a thoughtful and giving group of people who give and receive as part of the relationships we share. Given that context, if they believe that they are coming to be given food and drink, it is because I have made that very clear to them, and I want to pay for all of it.

Meanwhile, unlike Really Nice!'s really nice cellar, my house has half a bottle of Big House Red on the kitchen table and that's it. We don't have the income to create a $60-70K cellar, and we're unlikely to have a $50+ bottle of wine unless we're explicitly purchasing it for the experience of something out of the ordinary (for us). Given that, I can imagine proposing to certain friends that we split a bottle of something that we otherwise would not have a chance to taste.

Because we have the sorts of relationships we have to those friends, I can imagine some of them being happy to share a pricey bottle of wine with us and pay for half of it. I can also just as easily imagine others opting out, since they, too, don't have the income to create a $60-70K cellar!

[SWISS_CHEF]

15 years ago my wife and I managed to put together a pretty good cellar of about 1500 bottles, about a third of that was first growth Bordeaux and top drawer Burgundies from the 50's, 60's and early 70's. There was never a shortage of people interested in tasting with us but almost no one brought along wines that matched ours. After a while this became a drag and we found that most of the people that covet the first growth wines are incredibly annoying. So rather than charge a fee and continue to be subjected to all of the fops we decided to sell all of our 'super' wines (we had more than we could drink anyway) and just concentrated on finding really fun and interesting wines at a great price and share them with our closer friends.....we have never looked back!

[Genny]

I think this question really has to do with how your relationships are defined.

"It all comes out in the wash" is my personal philosophy. I have a friend that I go out to lunch with once or twice a month. We take turns paying, we've done this for more than 10 years, regardless of whether lunch is Taco Bell or Bella Mia. With other friendships, we don't keep track of who has given more, but of course, if we see a trend where we feel we are giving far more than are receiving in the frienship such as Swiss Chef mentioned, then we too limit those contacts.

I've also had friends who prefer to 'split down the middle' on everything regardless. That is fine too. Its just about communication.

That said, the ones that really irk me are the ones that want to look at the check and count their entree, drink, appetizer... and do the math...I HATE THAT! Just split the damn thing. If this guy is counting the number of glasses are in the bottle of wine and dividing by the ounce I'd say "no thanks" to future dinners for sure!

[Fat Guy]

But Genny, objectively, it doesn't always come out in the wash. Maybe in a given relationship it does, but overall when you look at the world of dining relationships there is often someone who gets screwed if the bill is split down the middle -- the non-drinker in the group, for example. In such a situation, I think it's quite reasonable to have some sort of standing arrangement by which the non-drinker pays less than the others in the group. It actually seems unjust to do it any other way.

Likewise, if one person is always bringing the wine and bearing that expense, I think it's reasonable to adjust the allocation of cost accordingly. In the Shaw scenario (David Shaw and I are not related, by the way), it seems the choice is between splitting the cost of the wines or not having the wines at all, because no matter how generous he is in spirit he says he can't afford to pay for everybody's wine. Fine. If everybody in the group is happy with that arrangement, who are we to question its propriety?

[jgm]

That said, the ones that really irk me are the ones that want to look at the check and count their entree, drink, appetizer... and do the math...I HATE THAT!  Just split the damn thing.  If this guy is counting the number of glasses are in the bottle of wine and dividing by the ounce I'd say "no thanks" to future dinners for sure!

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It also depends on the financial situation of the diners. Years ago, when I was not making much money, I often had pizza with a couple I socialized with. At one point, the wife suggested we just split the cost down the middle. I was grateful when the husband jumped in and pointed out that since there were three of us, it should be split three ways, and he would pay for the two of them. In those days, every penny was precious and that extra few dollars would have been a strain.

Today, I'd probably just pay for the pizza myself and not even think about it.

While it's true that people who are sharing fine wines or somewhat expensive dinners are likely to be people who easily have the means to do so, it's not necessarily the case. In these days of uncertain employment, etc., the compassionate thing is to check with each other ahead of time and make decisions before ordering. One never knows what's going on in others' checking accounts, and I think it's worth initiating the discussion to ensure others' comfort, and avoid hard feelings.

There have been times when I've been greatly pained because I wanted to treat unemployed friends to dinner, because I wanted to enjoy their company with a good meal, and they would not allow it, even though we all knew they'd do the same for me if the shoe were on the other foot. Their company is just as wonderful over coffee at McDonald's, and I just have had to understand how difficult it is to deal with money between friends.

[russ parsons]

i think it's possible that david failed to communicate every nuance of his position in his column. he is a dear friend and i have eaten with him often and he has always been the soul of generosity. he has opened great bottles at his home without any consideration of cost (or what i brought). he has also volunteered to sell great wines at his original cost for special occasions (that way i managed to score a bottle of an old bordeaux for michel richard's birthday one year that was the same as the one he's always said was the first truly great wine he'd ever tasted).

at the same time, if we go out for lunch to a restaurant and he brings a great bottle, i have absolutely no problem crediting half the original cost of that bottle toward the check. in fact, i think it's a terrific bargain. '98 marcassin for $35 or so? i think to do otherwise would be cheap and churlish. david has often been accused of being churlish, but never of being cheap.

[vserna]

Reciprocity seems to work best. We have a group of rabid wine geeks in Madrid who'll often get together for dinner with a theme - 'Chinese cuisine, European wines' was it this week (at Madrid's new top-drawer Chinese restaurant, Yuan); 'recent Rhones', 'red 1999 Burgundies'... Everyone will bring one or two or three bottles along. We only pay for the food, and we wouldn't think of paying for the wines.