Toronto vs. Montreal-who's got better restaurants?

[SYoung]

I'm not sure I understand why good restaurant is in no way a matter of money? It's certainly not the only factor but it's right up there.

If you want the best chefs using the best ingredients and best of everything, you have to pay for it and thus you'll have higher costs which translates to higher food prices for customers. Then you have to have enough people to come to your restaurant (the size, critical mass that malcolmjolly refers to above) as well as people with the deep pockets to pay for it. That's one reason why the top restaurants are in New York and LA and not Indianapolis or Milwaukee.

Yes, there's homegrown talent and plenty of young chefs, but one would think that if they want to truly be the best, in the long run, they have to go where the money and good customer base is. I can't think of any industry outside the food industry where in the long run this is not the case.

Is a good restaurant a matter of money? No way. Montreal has homegrown talent, superb locally produced ingredients, an excellent hotel/cooking school, signature dishes, and plenty of young chefs opening wild and wonderful restaurants.

[malcolmjolley]

Yeah, but, there are plenty of places with lots of money with a pretty so-so restaurant scene. Palm Beach comes to mind. Or even London 20 years ago.

[Mr. Fagioli]

SYoung,

I'm a fool for wading in here, because I'm utterly unqualified to attempt an experience-based answer to the question. However, I can't help but point out that by the logic of your question, New Yorkers should stick to New York (and perhaps L.A., London and Tokyo) because other places have less money and, ipso facto, lesser restaurants--and a place with lesser restaurants is, the way the question is posed, "a waste of time." I realize that you're talking about fine dining, but please: I don't think even the most virulent Montreal-basher would claim that there aren't enough quality restaurants here to occupy a serious gourmand for at least a short visit. Just the fact that the point can be debated at all should tell you something.

I don't think that anyone would deny that Toronto has a much larger number of top-shelf restaurants. But that fact alone should in no way keep you from exploring what other places have to offer. I just can't see why it would, sorry. If I'm missing something...I'd like to hear it.

Ultimately, I would hope that you will consider the fact that you have been living two hours away from Montreal (by air) all this time, without paying a visit in at least 25 years. Surely it's worth a weekend or a week to check out one of Canada's prime tourist destinations (for both food and other things). Just wait a few weeks or a couple of months, while we finish cleaning up the crusty sidewalks and putting leaves on the trees.

BTW, those people staying out til 4 on a weeknight? Mostly under 30, mostly of questionable taste, mostly unrepresentative of anything except their own plastic world. IMNSHO.

[larkhess]

BTW, those people staying out til 4 on a weeknight? Mostly under 30, mostly of questionable taste, mostly unrepresentative of anything except their own plastic world. IMNSHO.

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Hey! I resemble that remark!

larkhess

[Mr. Fagioli]

BTW, those people staying out til 4 on a weeknight? Mostly under 30, mostly of questionable taste, mostly unrepresentative of anything except their own plastic world. IMNSHO.

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Hey! I resemble that remark!

larkhess

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As have I at times! I know there are exceptions in every crowd...hence all the "mostlys."

[malcolmjolley]

BTW, those people staying out til 4 on a weeknight? Mostly under 30, mostly of questionable taste, mostly unrepresentative of anything except their own plastic world. IMNSHO.

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Hey! I resemble that remark!

larkhess

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As have I at times! I know there are exceptions in every crowd...hence all the "mostlys."

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And I went to McGill, longer ago than I care to mention.

Actually I remember every once and a while blowing the bank and going to L'Expresse at midnight. Can't do that here or on the left coast. Just can't go to L'Expresse at all, which is probably why Mtl wins, in the end.

[atomic]

Ok, now that I've had some time to mull this over, I think an argument in favour of Toronto's restaurant supremacy (a silly idea, but bear with me) would be broken down as follows:

1. Size: not money, but sheer numbers. There is a greater critical mass of diners and a corresponding greater number of restaurants, of all kinds to serve them. This breeds competition and differentiation. Especially on the high end, since there are more expense accounts to cater to (OK, I guess money does factor into it);

2. Immigration: we have more people from more places who bring their food traditions with them. This goes beyond mom & pop ethnic operations. We also attract more well-trained pros. Look at our top chefs: Stadtlander, Lee, Thuet, etc. Also, the real fruits often come a generation or two later, as in the case of the Italian and Portugese communities. The story of Toronto as a gastro-centre really starts with the first major wave of non-Anglo immigration of hungarians n the 1950s who brought garlic to Hogtown. This sped up in the 70s and 80s when Italo-Torontonians started opening high-end places; and

3. Character of the City. Let's face it: Toronto is a prime contender for Bourgeois Capital of the World. "Downtown living" often means owning your house, having a garden, a station wagon (imported, of course) in the garage. It's not like we're windsurfing in the morning and skiing in the afternoon. Nor are we out on St. Laurent until 4AM on a Wednesday. We're boring, so cooking and dining out is pretty much our biggest urban thrill. It only makes sense we'd be good at it.

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i cant believe you broke it down that way...1,2,3

1 : quality not quantity

2: more peolple from more places!?

obviously you havent been in montreal in a while - brazilian restaurants, ethiopian, indian, bangoly, french, italian, chinese, japonese,vietnamese, korean, québécois from traditional to comtempory, fusion, portuguese, russian, suisse, german - and may i go on :are all types of restos you'll find and then some

3:bourgeois in the city : ever been to hampstead, westmount, tmr and to a certain extend old montreal - yes rich peolple have their garages and gardens and backyards!!

before making such statements, you should do your research!

[CharityCase]

This debate can be neatly concluded as follows:

Toronto has only slightly better restaurants, while Montreal is an exponentially better city on all fronts.

[Pots]

who cares whos got the better restaurants.Do you think a topic like this gets much attention between SF or LA.Ask the question to tourists and the answers will be more precise.As for classy people and the most Stanley cups-you got a long ,long way to go in both area's!

[maxanon]

ooh boy.

In the absence of Hockey, its good to see the rivalry has not died and people still are willing to go into the boards.

I guess we can all agree to disagree at best.

[Mr. Fagioli]

2. Immigration: we have more people from more places who bring their food traditions with them. This goes beyond mom & pop ethnic operations. We also attract more well-trained pros. Look at our top chefs: Stadtlander, Lee, Thuet, etc. Also, the real fruits often come a generation or two later, as in the case of the Italian and Portugese communities. The story of Toronto as a gastro-centre really starts with the first major wave of non-Anglo immigration of hungarians n the 1950s who brought garlic to Hogtown. This sped up in the 70s and 80s when Italo-Torontonians started opening high-end places; and

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2: more peolple from more places!?

obviously you havent been in montreal in a while - brazilian restaurants, ethiopian, indian, bangoly, french, italian, chinese, japonese,vietnamese, korean, québécois from traditional to comtempory, fusion, portuguese, russian, suisse, german - and may i go on :are all types of restos you'll find and then some

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You're right that Montreal has people and restaurants representing all those ethnicities, but with the exception of French and Québécois (and possibly Portuguese?), Toronto can easily be shown to have more people and better restaurants. In many of those examples, Montreal has nothing that can truly be called "fine dining."

As for the other points, they're both more and less debatable: there's undoubtedly more disposable income in Toronto, but arguably a disproportionate amount of it gets spent on glitzy overhead, as Lesley suggested. Montrealers have less money as a whole, but they spend it creatively on food and they tend to have pretty good taste in my experience. Montreal supports a tremendous number and variety of quality mid-range places, which is no help if fine dining is what turns your crank...but it's wonderful for the rest of us.

[gruyere]

I believe this debate has brushed over a fundamentally important point. The focus has been on financial resources and population, when in fact culture and lifestyle have much more to do with what city has the best restaurants and food society. Lyon, France with a population of about 400,000 has brought the food world much more than 99% of North American cities many of which are 10 times its size. Barcelona, Spain, with a population of about 1.5 million has a much more vibrant restaurant scene than virtually any city in the U.S. and Canada. I recently returned from Sarasota and Orlando, Florida. With respective populations of about 400,000 and 1 million + they are not even on the same planet when it comes to restaurants and food culture when compared to the two European cities, although their populations likely have significantly more disposable income. Why? Because like Toronto, it is simply not a priority.

Montreal has its own ‘scene’; Toronto has a New York City wannabe restaurant culture. I travel a lot and find that the restaurant environment in Toronto is like many other North American cities. There are many good restaurants, a few great ones and an occasional exceptional one but there is a sameness that penetrates to the point of detracting from the overall experience. There are exceptions of course, New Orleans has it’s Cajun scene, NYC’s Chinatown offers an authenticity that is hard to duplicate and Thomas Keller is almost a ‘scene’ onto his own.

When I’m in Montreal I feel like there is a more unique environment, in a creative way not in a restrictive sense. It is almost certainly because the culture is different; it is more European than other parts of N.A. A two hour lunch on a terrace in Montreal is ‘eat and run’. A two hour lunch in Toronto is an indication that you don’t understand the concept of career advancement. It just is not the same approach and that’s not a bad thing.

Take this discussion for example. It is posted on the Montreal and Toronto boards. At last look there were 1293 Views and 35 Replies (Montreal) and 385 Views and 5 replies (Toronto); 3.4 times and 7 times respectively. The list of topics on the Montreal board is twice as long as that of Toronto. If the GTA is about twice as large as the GMA then this highly unscientific study is even more significant. In Montreal there is simply more interest and a willingness to dedicate a greater percentage of resources to food and restaurant experiences. This results in a more discerning and sophisticated standard than is the case in Toronto. There are so many great and exceptional restaurants in Paris because the populace demands and supports such. Although Montreal is not Paris by a long shot, the analogy is accurate.

Although I have eaten many meals in TO I have yet to have a dining experience that is as good as I have had at Les Caprices de Nicolas, Anise, la Chronique or the new and quite exceptional le Club Chasse et Peche.

Let’s admit it Canada is the parent and Montreal is the offspring who stays out too late and parties too much. Toronto is the one who is concerned about the mortgage, the next payment on the station wagon and the next promotion. Hey TO we need you guys. If you weren’t working your butts off and paying all kinds of tax who the hell would support us when we decide to turn the two hour lunch into a warm up for a night on blvd. St. Laurent (can’t remember who made reference to Bu wine bar in this thread, but its likely he was in his ‘jammies’ before Montrealers got to the place. I’ve too often been a part of the depressingly ‘role up the sidewalks at midnight’ scene in TO).

However if you are in Toronto and you think the scene is great then what the hell. If you are happy with your lot, that’s what is important.