Considering opening a wine bar

[adegiulio]

So, we are considering opening a wine bar in the near future, and are doing our research now. Aside from the NY state liquor laws, does anybody have any suggestions or advice for us? What sort of things would you like to see at a wine bar? How important is food? What would make you say "WOW, I have to go there!"? Anybody out there actually own a wine bar that could offer some business advice?

Thanks for any help. Don't restrict comments to just the above questions. We are new to the wine bar world (though we have plenty of restaurant exp.) and could use the help

Ant

[slbunge]

I find the Venetian model of offering an array of chicchetti at the bar to be very appealing. Small morsels of prepared food that can range in substance from a half a hard cooked egg topped with a small fillet of anchovy to a sizeable chunk of mortadella or even a savory little tart that is maybe two bites worth. Perfect for a nibble on the way home from work or even later in the evening. (Also found it was perfect for an irritating American tourist who seems to always be hungry.)

[jeffZ]

I have always wanted to model a wine bar off what I've seen and been to in Milan. A location near restaurants so that a patron can come in for a before dinner glass of wine or a wine geek can do a tasting depending on the night.

Since I always have wine with food I loved that there were free little appetizers sitting around (but quality ones - good olives, bruschetta, etc).

I did all of the research and put the business model together for a Los Angeles location. In the three years I've been looking around and contemplating the idea (because I realize I'll have to devote my life to it) 3-4 wine bars have opened up. It is definatley a trend right now.

For me I would do a retail/winebar. Keep the store area open when the winebar is happening. People can buy. Important. Also I haven't been to any winebars that have live music but something small like a little jazz thing might be cool. Or at the very least some good stuff spinning in the CD player.

Good luck if you decide to pursue it!

[tetsujustin]

I think the food is incredibly important because I've had a whole bunch of experiences where I was snacking on something or another small, simple and tasting wine and then there was a pairing that just completely sang out to me. Even though other wine bars may have the same wine, the whole experience of having a great pairing at that exact place makes me crave not just that pair... but that place as well. Like... I need to go back to find another pairing.

Also, somethings out of the ordinary food-wise would be good. Just to make yourself distinguished.

I love a good selection and wide variety of charcuterie and cheeses too when I wine.

[Curlz]

Wow, Wow, WOW, ANT!! (and Amy) I love the idea, esp since I know you two and how serious you are about food and wine!

One suggestion in addition to food...offer flights. When I was in San Francisco in January, I was amazed by how many restaurants were offering them, and of course I took advantage of the opportunity whenever I could. Great way to try lots of different wines before settling in with one (or two) for the evening! I'd love to see the 'concept' catch on here on the east coast a bit more!

I agree that charcuterie and cheeses are crucial, but would like to see 'bites' as well. Remember--you don't want the liability issue of people leaving your place without something in them to absorb the wine! And if you could pull it off (Gee...do you know anyone who bakes? Heehee), some dessert items to go with the dessert wines.

TBD more in person, I hope! And major congrats on entertaining the idea!

[waves2ya]

First - this was my minor rant at 'beer' - but I think wine needs food (whereas beer does not). So, some kind of snack/tapas/nosh is requisite...

I used to have a *great* time at the Soho Bar & Grill when they had flights, etc., what seems like eons ago (ok, I'm dating myself...). It degraded into a pick up joint (or always was - just, at first, the wine was important) but they did a lot right - flights would be brought out on large trays, bar was spacious yet you could easily see what others had ordered...

As the 'wine bar' model matured it became more of cushy retro scene - not as festive and, well, sorta boring...

[Chris Amirault]

Along with olives, bread, charcuterie, and cheese, I'd add ripe fruit and toasted nuts to the nosh selection. While this may be a bit off your plan, a small menu of reliable larger dishes that go well with wine -- quick sautees, non-vinegary composed salads, etc. -- would enable those who want a meal to visit your bar.

I also think that you should offer different sized pours as standard for single glasses, which here on the east coast is pretty unusual (at least in my experience).

Finally, as someone who likes wine but doesn't have the budget for extensive comparisons, I agree about flights, particularly in a wide range of prices. I would go to

[Blondie]

I used to have a *great* time at the Soho Bar & Grill when they had flights, etc., what seems like eons ago (ok, I'm dating myself...).  It degraded into a pick up joint (or always was - just, at first, the wine was important) but they did a lot right - flights would be brought out on large trays, bar was spacious yet you could easily see what others had ordered...

Was this the place on Greene St.? If so, I had exactly that in mind when I read Curlz' suggestion of flights (as I date myself as well ). Great idea.

[scordelia]

There is a really nice wine bar in Chicago (Webster's) where they match wine flights with cheese flights--pretty fun! 3 wines per flight and 6 cheeses per flight.

Sophie

[jackal10]

Like anything in the catering trade: location, location, location.

What attracts people to a wine bar is the other people. The atmosphere is key to get in the right clientele to get the ball rolling.

However be prepared to have deep pockets, as its a fashion business, and it takes time to establish, and equally you can go out of fashion.

Wine is also

- heavy

- high value

- disappears easily

do make sure you have your purchasing and stock control well organised.

[Carolyn Tillie]

Food can be debated from now until kingdom come, but the bottom line is, You Must Have It.

Beyond that?

Get decent glassware! Reidel or Speigelau. There is nothing worse than a wine bar with thick-rimmed, mediocre glassware... Train your staff to cloth clean the water spots and lipstick residue so that they are absolutely pristine. A waiter or bartender should NEVER be seen wandering around with nothing to do - there is always glassware to be polished!

[Really Nice!]

Some of my thoughts...

What's the competition doing? <- other wine bars, grocery stores, wineries... i.e. anyone selling wine. What are their menus and prices?

What will the market support? Is there a need for this type of business in this area?

If you're going to serve food it becomes extremely important. There's a wine bar in my vicinity in a little mall that did not consider food to be a factor during the design phase. After opening the business, they told their customers that they could go to the food court and bring food in. They were basically saying that the wines they were serving are fast-food-from-the-mall friendly. After two years in the business, it's up for sale.

If this is a partnership, get together and discuss EVERYTHING before signing. I was a partner in a restaurant a few years back and one of the things we didn't discuss before forming the partnership was taxes. It turns out we couldn't be more opposite as to tax strategy and philosophy. (I prefer to deal with taxes ASAP, their strategy was to get extensions beyond the April 15 deadline. It was ugly.)

I'm sure you'll draw up a partnership plan that details what happens in the event of death, divorce, etc.

Why are you going to succeed? Have you thought about it? More often people don't. Put it down in writing.

What are the property/business taxes for the specific location?

Any concerns about insurance?

Have you talked to anyone in the business? They might be able to help set your expectations.

Here are some things that should be in a Partnership Agreement

1. Contribution of each partner (time, money, etc.)

2. Partner definitions

....a. Active – works in the business and may have contributed cash

....b. Silent – normally contributed cash and some expertise, usually behind the scenes

....c. Limited – No liability beyond financial contribution.

3. Duties of each partner.

4. How profits or losses are divided.

5. Signing officers of the partnership.

6. Voting arrangements in making decisions.

7. Method in which partner(s) can leave.

8. Method in which new partner(s) can join.

9. What happens in the event of the death of a partner?

I recommend purchasing several books on opening a restaurant because until books come out about opening a wine bar, this is the closest item you have to guide you along.

What sort of things would you like to see at a wine bar?

A good mix of things I can get locally <less inventory> and things I can't get locally <higher inventory>.

Also, there's a reason Robert M. Parker Jr. sits in a hotel room to sample wines rather than sample them at the wineries. It removes the ambience that can artificially heighten the influence of the wine thereby allowing an opportunity for him to give a higher score to his evaluation. By all means create an ambience that can artificially heighten the influnce of the wine. Make it a comfortable, enjoyable experience. Not only do you want your customers to be relaxed and happy, but make the environment familiar to them. Some of my least memorable wine tasting experiences (and instances where I didn’t buy the wine) were in wineries that had sterile tasting rooms… it kind of felt like I was in a hotel room.

How important is food?

Very important if you decide to do it. If you don't do it, you diminish the experience. If you do do it, you better do it right.

What would make you say "WOW, I have to go there!"?

A perfect matching of food to wine. I had dinner at a restaurant here and they served a potato leek soup with sorrel and crème fraîche. The soup was okay, it was served with a Languedoc-Roussillon wine, which was also 'okay'. But when the two came together it was incredible. A taste of the soup was elevated by a sip of the wine and a sip of the wine was elevated by the soup. This is the "WOW, I have to go there!" moment you want your customers to have.

Good luck!, and keep us posted.

Edited April 8, 2005 by Really Nice! (log)

[nwyles]

I was recently at a Wine Bar in Vancouver called Vintropolis. Very cool, lots of flights and lots of different tastes happening. Two oz glasses time three for flights in a little metal holder that allowed the glasses to tilt. Nice presentation. I also noticed that they were using a nitrogen tank to preserve the wine at the end of the night. I have had one of these for the whole 8 years I have been in business. I built it myself from parts from the Home Depot. I order the nitrogen from a local supplier and have duct taped the controls to where I want them. I had a few staff members think that more is better, filling the bottle with a huge shot, shooting wine to the ceiling. I no have it on a slow drizzle ( You do not need much ) and a tank lasts me a year. Anyways , I digress.

The thing that drove me crazy at the wine bar was that they served a spicy jalapeno bread with the wine. When I first got it, I thought it was olive bread and took a great big bite - all of the wine tasted like crap after that. I was not happy and told the manager so. He showed us a little love and all was well. I know the chef and next time I see him, I will give him a good razzing.

Nice concept. Good luck with it.

[jsolomon]

Don't serve dill pickles... and don't recommend people pop off to brush their teeth in the middle of a tasting.

Aside from the things people have mentioned about food pairings and all of that, the two most important things in making me want to come back to a bar are:

Good service. If the bar I'm going to has as its excuse of existence the service of good drink, part of that is service. Make sure your staff is knowledgeable, willing to learn, and expressive. If I'm going somewhere in a bar that serves a different purpose than a venue for a tv tuned to ESPN, I expect more out of the bar experience.

Good value. I don't want to walk out of the bar feeling like I personally paid for one of the definitive wines in the cellar. I want to walk out of it thinking the wine purchaser for the bar is a thoughtful, tasteful person who prices their drinks and food reasonably for the quality (bar markup is certainly allowed).

upthread, Carolyn Tillie mentioned that polishing glassware is a must, but remind your staff to develop relationships with customers if they have the opportunity while their polishing glassware. Let them be wine geeks, not cork dorks.

[magnolia]

Sort of a corollary to flights...but lots of choices by the glass, and don't be afraid to push the envelope a bit. Naturally you'll have to offer some brands / safe bets. But wines by the glass allow people to experiment without the commitment to a bottle, and a wine bar is the perfect place to do that. Suppliers might even be willing to give you some kind of break if you take some of their more unusual stock.

This is a challenge of course because no matter what expensive gadget you get, some wines just *won't* last beyond a day or two.

If you ever make it to Dublin, Ely's has one of the largest and most adventurous selections by the glass that I've ever come across - in any country.

[Blondie]

If you ever make it to Dublin, Ely's has one of the largest and most adventurous selections by the glass that I've ever come across - in any country.

Thanks for the rec, Magnolia. I'll be back in Dublin later in the year, and will make it a point to stop in. It's just a stones' throw from my old flat

I concur with the others that food is essential.

[KatieLoeb]

Have small attractive decanters in various sizes into which to pour 3 oz., 5 oz. or 7 oz. servings of wine. Have fine stemware that you could stick your head in and have plenty of room to swirl in.

Train the staff, train the staff, train the staff!!!!

Program your POS system to reflect each individual size pour of each individual product (including the flights!) or your inventory control will be a nightmare. You can then figure out exactly how many ounces of each wine you've poured and convert to bottles. Otherwise you might as well not take inventory because stuff will disappear and you'll have absolutely no means of keeping track of it, or of calculating your costs.

If you'd like to come visit Philly for research I'll give you a personal tour of one of my favorite wine bars, Panorama. 120 bottle cruvinet in about the drop dead sexiest room you've ever seen. My favorite grown up bar in the city and possibly anywhere else as well.

[adegiulio]

If you'd like to come visit Philly for research I'll give you a personal tour of one of my favorite wine bars, Panorama.  120 bottle cruvinet in about the drop dead sexiest room you've ever seen.  My favorite grown up bar in the city and possibly anywhere else as well.

←

I'll come if you are pouring that Limoncello you make

Thanks everyone for the thoughtful responses...keep them coming!

[bugsy]

Have small attractive decanters in various sizes into which to pour 3 oz., 5 oz. or 7 oz. servings of wine.  Have fine stemware that you could stick your head in and have plenty of room to swirl in.

Train the staff, train the staff, train the staff!!!!

Program your POS system to reflect each individual size pour of each individual product (including the flights!) or your inventory control will be a nightmare.  You can then figure out exactly how many ounces of each wine you've poured and convert to bottles.  Otherwise you might as well not take inventory because stuff will disappear and you'll have absolutely no means of keeping track of it, or of calculating your costs.

If you'd like to come visit Philly for research I'll give you a personal tour of one of my favorite wine bars, Panorama.  120 bottle cruvinet in about the drop dead sexiest room you've ever seen.  My favorite grown up bar in the city and possibly anywhere else as well.

←

[bugsy]

hey katie,

i've got a bunch of new 'mini-decanters' coming from Riedel that i had them put lines at 5 oz and 8 oz....see if your local wholesaler has them on order,also.

[adegiulio]

space left empty intentionally.

Edited April 8, 2005 by adegiulio (log)

[Rebel Rose]

I can't add much to the incredibly good advice so far. Staff, glasses, quality wines, location, financial planning . . .

Our favorite local wine bar, Vinoteca, also offers a wine club which has been a big hit with out of town visitors, and weekly winemaker appearances on Wednesday night. The bar is nicely appointed, with a small, elegant conference room in the back, the actual bar in the middle of the building, and the front is devoted to couches, easy chairs with elegant tables, a grand piano, and space for a guitarist. The glasses are large yet light (Spiegalau I think). They have wine-by-the-glass offerings for $9, and generous flights of three wines for $10. Everything about the place oozes comfort, from the brick walls, lighting and friendly staff to the good food. It's a great place to meet before dinner, or to just stay and chat.

[Ore]

Soon to be Dutchess County...where?? is this where the enoteca will be?

Rhinebeck? Hyde Park? Poughkeepsie? New Paltz?

Could be interesting...and if you can get them...CIA part timers are not a bad choice for staff...and some might even know a thing or two about wine and service!

[Curlz]

One thing that hasn't yet been mentioned is COMFORTABLE BAR STOOLS. I'm not trying to be funny. One of my favorite things to do is sit at the bar with a friend or two and drink wine and have apps/tapas/whatever, and I hate having to get up to move about the cabin just b/c my butt hurts! So please consider chairs with good padding and (GASP) maybe backs on them!

[jsolomon]

Don't forget to have fun, too. Every now and then throw Thunderbird, Boones, or Mad Dog on the menu as part of a blind tasting special, and also for birthday patrons.

Occasionally put cookie dough on your menu, too. With LOTS of chocolate chips.