China Salmon

[RonC]

Sadly, out here in the boonies it's really tough to get good fresh fish and yet I've gotten wife and son to enjoy it. Our local meat market on occasion will get some fresh, but ... that's not very frequent. I've read all the horror stories about farm-raised salmon. My only option for most of the year is (obviously) frozen wild salmon from China. It looks and tastes okay, but I can't help but wonder what we're putting in our bodies.

I'd sure welcome your opinions and reaction to my options. What would you do?

Thanks,

Ron

[NulloModo]

I don't know anything about Chinese Salmon, almost all I see here is farm raised, which is what I eat, and it tastes fine. I think most of the horror stories are woefully overinflated about farm raised fish. Unless you are subsisting entirely on the salmon and cans of tuna the chances of getting enough heavy metals and etc into you to do damage are so slim as to be ignorable.

[PCL]

Hear hear.

Courage is what's required.

[RonC]

Hmmm, so you both feel it's better (safer) to eat farm-raised than imported wild salmon from China. Anyone else want to weigh in on this?

Ron

Hear hear.

Courage is what's required.

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[DRColby]

I had a friend in the fish business who would buy product from all over the world and process it through China. Salmon and halibut would be caught in Siberia and then dressed, packagesd and flash frozen in China. Perhaps this is the case with your salmon, it was processed through China.

Dave

[corinne]

Farm raised salmon has been a blight on the environment and for what? It's practicaly tasteless and the diet of fish meal means that it is lacking in omega-3 fats.

[Patrick S]

Farm raised salmon has been a blight on the environment and for what? It's practicaly tasteless and the diet of fish meal means that it is lacking in omega-3 fats.

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That simply is not true. On a per-serving basis, farmed salmon has as much if not more omega-3 fatty acids as wild salmon does. As a percentage of total fat per serving, wild salmon is slightly higher in omega-3s. But since farmed salmon have a significantly higher fat content, the per-serving omega-3 content is about the same or higher in farmed salmon. For instance, see this page, and particularly this attached PDF file comparing omega-3 content of wild vrs farmed salmon.

Also:

Kris-Etherton PM, Harris WS, Appel LJ; American Heart Association. Nutrition Committee. Fish consumption, fish oil, omega-3 fatty acids, and cardiovascular disease. Circulation 2002;106:2753.

There may be good reasons not to eat farmed salmon. But a lack of omega-3s is definitely not one of them!

[RonC]

Thanks for the article reference - Now if we only just knew WHO funded the research. Sorry to be so cynical, but ... well... sadly, data seem to be following the dollars lately. I'm not suggesting it's wrong, it just seems to fly in the face of most that I've read in recent months and years. Isn't it truly a sad state of affairs when we can't trust the news and scientists? But that's another story.

Ron

Farm raised salmon has been a blight on the environment and for what? It's practicaly tasteless and the diet of fish meal means that it is lacking in omega-3 fats.

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That simply is not true. On a per-serving basis, farmed salmon has as much if not more omega-3 fatty acids as wild salmon does. As a percentage of total fat per serving, wild salmon is slightly higher in omega-3s. But since farmed salmon have a significantly higher fat content, the per-serving omega-3 content is about the same or higher in farmed salmon. For instance, see this page, and particularly this attached PDF file comparing omega-3 content of wild vrs farmed salmon.

Also:

Kris-Etherton PM, Harris WS, Appel LJ; American Heart Association. Nutrition Committee. Fish consumption, fish oil, omega-3 fatty acids, and cardiovascular disease. Circulation 2002;106:2753.

There may be good reasons not to eat farmed salmon. But a lack of omega-3s is definitely not one of them!

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[PCL]

Courage in the sense that new things must be tried at least once.

There is too much of a stigma against Chinese products. They are cheaper and more efficient than most 'developed' nations and have a large industrial base (the commies taught hard work).

This goes not just for food, but wider economics as well.

As for the levels and numbers etc, I don't personally put much faith in them. It matters more to me that they taste good and work well as product. You're not going to be eating this stuff everyday.

[docsconz]

A concern with Chinese food products is what impact the environment may have had on it. My understanding is that there is a lot of pollution and very little environmental regulation there.

[PCL]

Many major manufacturers, processors have set up there. Millions of people around the world enjoy canned luncheon meat from China, same for sardines in black bean sauce, waxed meat products etc for decades.

I concede that quality control can be problematic, but like anything, you just need to do some research, rather than revert to a knee-jerk embargo based on pre-conceptions.

[Ben Hong]

Here we go. Saddle up the Xeno horse, the Chinese are coming! The Chinese are coming!!

Relax people, the cold war is over. Any food products that are allowed to get through the North American customs people and the testing labs should be safe for you to eat. The testers are even more paranoid and xenophobic than you are.

Just for your info, a lot of the so-called Chinese products are actually products processed in China by subsidiaries of American or European multinationals, companies which would not want to jeopardize their reputations. Most of these subsidiaries/branch plants are brand new plants built with shining new last minute technologies and use the latest techniques. I have seen many of the antiquated canneries of Canada and the US and I know they would disgust many on this very finicky board. Bon appetit.

[Ben Hong]

A concern with Chinese food products is what impact the environment may have had on it. My understanding is that there is a lot of pollution and very little environmental regulation there.

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Yeah, damn the gas prices, just open Alaskan Nature Preserves to oil exploitation. Get a bigger SUV, eat more smog while you look for pristine wild salmon in your dead salmon rivers.

Get some perspective...please.

[docsconz]

Many major manufacturers, processors have set up there. Millions of people around the world enjoy canned luncheon meat from China, same for sardines in black bean sauce, waxed meat products etc for decades.

I concede that quality control can be problematic, but like anything, you just need to do some research, rather than revert to a knee-jerk embargo based on pre-conceptions.

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I didn't say anything about an embargo - just an explanation of why there may be concern about food products coming from China as opposed to products processed in China. I certainly wouldn't paint all products from anywhere in a generalized light. As you said, though, "quality control can be a problem" Rightly or wrongly that is a perception here.

[docsconz]

Here we go. Saddle up the Xeno horse, the Chinese are coming! The Chinese are coming!!

Relax people, the cold war is over. Any food products that are allowed to get through the North American customs people and the testing labs should be safe for you to eat. The testers are even more paranoid and xenophobic than you are.

Just for your info, a lot of the so-called Chinese products are actually products processed in China by subsidiaries of American or European multinationals, companies which would not want to jeopardize their reputations. Most of these subsidiaries/branch plants are brand new plants built with shining new  last minute technologies and use the latest techniques. I have seen many of the antiquated canneries of Canada and the US and I know they would disgust many on this very finicky board. Bon appetit.

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I don't believe xenophobia has anything to do with this, at least not from my perspective. Do you deny the issues with respect to Chinese environmental regulation? Until China develops a better reputation with regards to the environment for food production, I will be skeptical of the underlying health issues of its export food products, especially something like salmon (if it in fact comes from China in a generic sense or worse yet an unidentified area) I do agree that processing is a separate issue and in this regard they may be working in a state of the art way in many places. How does one distinguish between native Chinese produced food products and Chinese processed products? This discussion about China is not meant to absolve any other area from similar concerns. I have many of the same concerns about European and North American farm-raised salmon for example.

I would be very pleased to learn that my concerns are indeed unfounded as regards Chinese food production.

[docsconz]

A concern with Chinese food products is what impact the environment may have had on it. My understanding is that there is a lot of pollution and very little environmental regulation there.

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Yeah, damn the gas prices, just open Alaskan Nature Preserves to oil exploitation. Get a bigger SUV, eat more smog while you look for pristine wild salmon in your dead salmon rivers.

Get some perspective...please.

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The issues above concern me as well. As you have so vividly pointed out these issues do have a relation to food in a direct way. They are worthy of significant discussion in their own right for a number of other reasons as well - possibly on a site devoted to environmental politics. I made no claim that the U.S. is unblemished in this regard. I do, however, have some ability to judge where and who my food comes from. I believe in buying from known and trusted producers locally whenever possible or from whatever country when not. I will be happy to buy quality Chinese products when I can identify a trusted source. Multinational corporations do not in general fit that bill for me as regards food.

[docsconz]

One last thought from me on this topic this evening: It may very well be (and I hope it is) that the concerns expressed in this topic are unfounded. The fact that they exist I believe is wrongly attributed to xenophobia, although that may have some bearing. Because of a perception of unbridled growth and little regulation, there exists in the US a perception that Chinese produced foodstuffs may suffer as a result. If this is not the case, it is up to those producing the food and marketing it to change that perception.

I italicized "food" in my initial post to emphasize the fact that these issues do not necessarily apply to other Chinese products.

[Ben Hong]

I will make one last post on this topic. The last time I looked, China does not have any indigenous salmon, what is called Chinese salmon (if there are such products) would definitely be salmon from other sources shipped to China for processing in their brand new efficient plants.

[Sam Salmon]

FYI-China has about 200 miles of coastline where the right sort of rivers for Salmon to propagate are found-whether or not they still have Salmon in them I have no idea.

Given-as Peter Mathiessen once wrote-"the Chinese leadership's chilling indifference to the natural world"-I doubt it.

In any case the post below is almost certainly correct since Siberia lacks much of the industrial infrastructure of China

I had a friend in the fish business who would  buy product from all over the world and process it through China.  Salmon and halibut would be caught in Siberia and then dressed, packaged and flash frozen in China.  Perhaps this is the case with your salmon, it was processed through China.Dave

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China is the world's largest Aquaculture market and probably the largest producer as well.We see some of that here-soggy Scallops, odd unidentifiable Fish Sausages and some Surimi products.

It's certainly an education to see the different views from people who live in the USA.Here in Vancouver 30+% of the population is Chinese and food products from China dominate the shelves in many food stores-not just 'ethnic groceries' either.

That being said my familiarity with food products from China makes me more than a little wary of blandishments as posted below.

Just for your info, a lot of the so-called Chinese products are actually products processed in China by subsidiaries of American or European multinationals, companies which would not want to jeopardize their reputations. Most of these subsidiaries/branch plants are brand new plants built with shining new  last minute technologies and use the latest techniques.

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As always Click Here For Farmed Salmon Info

Edited March 18, 2005 by Sam Salmon (log)

[PCL]

Last post too...

I'm glad, really glad in fact, to see that we can talk about these issues in a mature grown up way.

Incidentally, is anyone ever concerned about the processing of caviar from Iran, Russia, or raw cheeses from etc. etc.??... Like, I'm sure the FDA and our own Customs Department here in Aussieland would not approve...

[RonC]

Wow, did I ever open a can of ... well ... salmon with this post. All I was really trying to get were some facts (even opinions) on the relative health concerns and benefits of farm-raised vs imported (it just happens to be from China) wild salmon. As one who has fought most of my adult life against discrimination of any form, I certainly was NOT bashing China; however, it does appear that the country places fewer safe guards on environmental issues than America (used to). Anyway, I guess I'll continue to eat the flash frozen wild rather than the farm raised flash frozen (and "thawed for my convience") variety.

Hope all of you were able to get to sleep last night and thanks for sharing.

Ron

Last post too...

I'm glad, really glad in fact, to see that we can talk about these issues in a mature grown up way.

Incidentally, is anyone ever concerned about the processing of caviar from Iran, Russia, or raw cheeses from etc. etc.??... Like, I'm sure the FDA and our own Customs Department here in Aussieland would not approve...

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[Patrick S]

Thanks for the article reference - Now if we only just knew WHO funded the research.

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Did you read the PDF that I linked to? The data comes straight from the USDA online database, which I consider the best of its kind. The gram amount of eicosapentaenoic acid+docosahexanoic acid per 100 grams fresh fish are as follows:

Farmed Coho Salmon: 1.206

Wild Coho Salmon: 1.085

Farmed Atlantic Salmon: 1.911

Wild Atlantic Salmon: 1.472

Farmed Channel Catfish: 0.274

Wild Channel Catfish: 0.364

Farmed Rainbow Trout: 0.928

Wild Rainbow Trout: 0.587

So as you can see, with the exception of catfish, which is low in omega3s to begin with, all the farmed fish are significantly higher in omega3s than their wild counterparts.

I'm not suggesting it's wrong, it just seems to fly in the face of most that I've read in recent months and years.

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I follow food-safety issues too. If your sources have said that farmed salmon lacks omega3s, they're definitely misinformed, and therefore I would take their future prouncements about food safety with skepticism.

Cheers!

[RonC]

Yes, I did read the reference and thanked you for it. Actually, the issue, for me, isn't the level of omega 3s, but rather the amount of PCBs and other toxins that seem from the data I've read to be higher in farm-raised. Here are three references for those interested.

http://healthletter.tufts.edu/issues/2003-11/salmon.html

http://www.breastcancer.org/research_farm_raised_salmon.html

http://www.healthcastle.com/wildsalmon-far...sedsalmon.shtml

Guess if I lived in the great northwest, or even in a metro area, where wild and fresh salmon was easily available, I'd go that route. But, as I said at the top of this post, wild fresh salmon isn't typically available here and my usual choices are farm-raised and wild imported from China.

Can I interest anyone in a nice T-bone?

Ron

Thanks for the article reference - Now if we only just knew WHO funded the research.

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Did you read the PDF that I linked to? The data comes straight from the USDA online database, which I consider the best of its kind. The gram amount of eicosapentaenoic acid+docosahexanoic acid per 100 grams fresh fish are as follows:

Farmed Coho Salmon: 1.206

Wild Coho Salmon: 1.085

Farmed Atlantic Salmon: 1.911

Wild Atlantic Salmon: 1.472

Farmed Channel Catfish: 0.274

Wild Channel Catfish: 0.364

Farmed Rainbow Trout: 0.928

Wild Rainbow Trout: 0.587

So as you can see, with the exception of catfish, which is low in omega3s to begin with, all the farmed fish are significantly higher in omega3s than their wild counterparts.

I'm not suggesting it's wrong, it just seems to fly in the face of most that I've read in recent months and years.

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I follow food-safety issues too. If your sources have said that farmed salmon lacks omega3s, they're definitely misinformed, and therefore I would take their future prouncements about food safety with skepticism.

Cheers!

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[Patrick S]

Yes, I did read the reference and thanked you for it. Actually, the issue, for me, isn't the level of omega 3s, but rather the amount of PCBs and other toxins that seem from the data I've read to be higher in farm-raised. Here are three references for those interested.

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Yeah this issue got a lot of attention in 2004 thanks to an Environmental Working Group report and tons of scaremongering headlines. But the science to justify a health concern simply isnt there.

Yes, PCBs do seem to be slightly higher in farmed versus wild salmon. But the good news is that in both farmed and wild salmon, the content of PCBs are extremely low. The average PCB content of farmed salmon was reported to be 27 parts per billion, which is about 1% of the allowable limit set by the FDA, which is itself extremely conservative (see below on the HERP ranking for PCBs).

To put that into some perspective, that is much higher than the concentration in wild salmon, but only about 4 times higher than the concentration in beef, so for someone like myself who eats beef far more often than salmon, by far my largest PCB source is beef. In fact, for the "average american consumer," the yearly-per capita PCB exposure from beef is 2016 picograms TEQ, from milk is 756, from poultry is 386, and from farmed salmon is 178 (2004 data). So, supposing consumption of farmed salmon tripled in this country, salmon would still only account for a small portion of the annual per capita load of PCBs. From PCBs and Farmed Salmon: Facts to Go with the Fiction

Ironically enough, one of the reasons farmed salmon have higher PCB is that they have more fat, including more heart-healthy omega-3s. Fatter fish will have more fat-soluble compounds in them.

Another point that should be mentioned is that overal dietary PCB exposure from all sources have been dropping dramatically since PCBs were banned. In fact, the dietary exposure to PCBs dropped 20-fold between 1978 and 1986 (see references in Gold et al, 2002, p. 64). Whatever risk dietary PCBs pose to the average consumer, that risk has been dropping enormously.

Lastly, we should compare the supposed carcinogenic risk of dietary PCBs to other natural and synthetic compounds in the diet. To do that I need to introduce the HERP index (which I also referred to on another thread).

The HERP index is a ranked index of various carcinogenic hazards. The ranking is straightforward. It reflects the ratio of the dose humans recieve in mg per kg of body weight per day to the lowest dose in mg/kg/day that has been shown to be carcinogenic in animal tests. So, for instance, if the 'average consumer' gets 10mg per kg of body weight per day of chemical X, and the rodent tests show that chemical X causes cancer in rodents at doses of 100mg/kg/day, then the HERP rank for that chemical is 10%. The methodology is described in detail in Gold et al's papers on the subject. Gold et al's paper is available here. I should probably also point out that Gold and coauthor Bruce Ames are considered to be two of the world's leading toxicologists, particularly with respect to environmental carcinogens.

PCBs are actually near the very bottom of the HERP index, with a value of 0.00008%. That means that the average consumer recieves about 0.00008% of the lowest dose shown to increase cancer risk in animal studies (Gold et al, p. 82). This compares very, very favorably to many natural carcinogens present in our diets. For instance, caffeic acid from coffee has a HERP of 0.1%, caffeic acid from lettuce has a HERP of 0.04%, and hydrazine from mushrooms has a rank of 0.02%.

Bottom line for me is I am much, much more concerned with being struck by lightening than I am about getting cancer from PCBs in salmon.

Some links:

The Top Ten Unfounded Health Scares of 2004: PCBs in Salmon and Cancer

Edited March 18, 2005 by Patrick S (log)

[Patrick S]

Can I interest anyone in a nice T-bone?

Ron

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Careful, Ron! A 16 ounce t-bone has as much PCBs as a 4 ounce farmed salmon filet!