French cooking

[mizducky]

True.  Nice was full of great stuff when I was there.

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On my one-and-only-ever, so far, trip to France, I really got into the pan bagnats sold by venders on the beaches around Nice.

My two cents on the question chefzadi posed: I think some--not all, by any means, but some of it has to do with current food fashions in the US. Whereas some combo of Julia Child's TV presence and the Kennedys' interest in French cuisine caused a surge of interest in French cooking in the States in the 1960s, nowadays the current vogues seem to be around Pacific Rim cuisines, American regional comfort foods, and Italian regional cuisines. Oh, and let's not forget super-spicy cuisines from all over. The US has gone totally bonkers for anything and everything chile, which at least in my admittedly limited experience is not a place French food usually goes. (I offer no value judgements either way on any of these trends, by the way, I'm just making the observations here.)

And yeah, I think the relative scarcity of cheap/takeout French in the States compared to other cuisines does have something to do with it too (never thought I'd hear myself say I'm missing the Harvard Square Au Bon Pain, but there you go...)

But hey, now that we've identified the issue, we can fix it, right? Okay, maybe not the scarcity-of-French-takeout issue (unless someone here is ready to jump in with a business plan ), but certainly the lack-of-cooking-discussions issue. Maybe someone could start one or more topics here in this forum, just to throw out one suggestion, on quick-and-easy ways for people to slip French accents (so to speak) into their everyday cooking, for those of us who need some more help in that area (like myself, for one).

[therese]

Part of the problem is that French food is not so different from American food at the basic level.

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I agree. Similar ingredients, similar preps, similar flavors.

[Busboy]

. . . . it seems that everything I make now takes a couple more steps than if I just cooked the way mom did.

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Are you implying you're a French cook and your mom wasn't, or is it just that you're a better, more thorough and dedicated cook than your mom. No disrespect intended to your mom and I suspect there are tens of thousands lousy home cooks in France. I've met plenty of Frenchmen who think I'm obsessive in regard to food and cooking.

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Certainly not that I'm a more thorough or dedicated cook than my mom, mon Dieu, especially given my weakness for calling out for Thai Food when I'm feeling lazy, and feeding the kids Popeye's.

Rather, that what I consider a "normal" Wednesday night dinner is generally a little more elaborate and complex than what mom laid out. The roast chicken has been trussed and marinated in lemon and rosemary (at this point I should say the meals Stephanie and I lay out, as this is one of her specialties); I'll make a sauce with wine and the chicken stock I have laying around; I tend to add more things to the mashed potatoes -- garlic, creme fraische and the like -- than she does. And, at the root of a lot of this fussing around is the years I have spent trying to batter into submission -- if not master -- the art of French cooking.

If you're at my house and dinner is late, blame Jacques and Julia.

[therese]

From my experience in Europe, people will buy street food but will eat it at a stand or bench near the takeout place, not walk around with it. Since my experience is mainly in Hamburg, it could also be that they don't want to risk spilling anything on their pristinely chic outfits

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I've had exactly the opposite experience recently in Heidelberg, Salamanca, and various resort towns in France (Le Grau du Roi and Trouville and some others) recently. People strolled the streets eating all sorts of things in all of these locales pretty much non-stop, though in Heidelberg it was pretty much fever pitch by the late afternoon/early evening.

What they all these locales have in common is a significant number of tourists and/or students, people with time on their hands. The more they stroll, the more likely they are to get a snack.

Visitors to the U.S. are likely to see the same sorts of behaviors if they are in tourist locales.

In less touristy locales like Montpellier and Bologna these behaviors were generally confined to the main squares.

[hazardnc]

The French housewife has traditionally had to do very little cooking -- so many of the French specialties are available at the local épicerie, charcuterie or traitteur. The cold foods -- salades, pates, mousses, foods in aspic, etc. -- are eaten cold. The hot foods are rarely sold hot, but ready for the oven or broiler to be reheated. The latter include everything from stews to scallops in a shell with sauce.

I loved the prepared escargot in the freezer section at a grocery store in Cahors - talk about great "heat and eat" food!

[chefzadi]

What is interesting about this is that eating on the street is definitely not an arab practice. It would be considered pretty rude to eat on the street, out of respect for people who might be fasting or cannot afford to buy the same food.

Here we go again. I think you are more familiar with the part of the Arab world that makes flat bread with an air pocket. In Algeria street food is eaten on the street, often. At night squares fill up with street food vendors and people eat where they pruchase the food. Walking and eating is not common at all. Maybe a sfenj doughnut in the morning. But generally it's considered not a good thing. As for fasting if it's not to lose weight and it's for religious reasons, well the whole country is supposed to be doing it. So there will be no food vendors, street or otherwise open during daylight. As for disrespect to those who cannot afford it, if a hungry man or someone poorer or if anyone asks you for food you're supposed to offer with a warm heart. I don't know if this is Muslim, as much at it is an Arab thing. I'm teasing Behemoth a little here.

Back on topic. As for the North African/ Middle Eastern places in France I mentioned upthread, it's not street food. I just mentioned it because they seem to be the most casual of mom and pop restaurants. Vietnamese might be just as casual but it isn't found as frequently, so I didn't mention it earlier. I also can't think of a Vietnamese dish that has become "French" like couscous has.

[ivan]

To paraphrase A. Bourdain, if not for the French, our idea of cuisine would be ham steaks with pineapple rings. To expand on that, I dare say without the French we'd have nothing worthwhile to discuss in these forums. We owe the French for the very idea that food is more than merely fuel. From that aspect, whenever you attempt to elevate anything you cook above the category of "grub", you are cooking French.

This is difficult to understand unless you've had a "French Epiphany", that moment when you realize the Zen of food. This is why French cuisine is often misunderstood, maligned, shunned and feared. Without the French Epiphany, there is a persistant and ingrained notion that there exist recipes, magical combinations of ingredients and cooking times, that will produce a transcendent eating experience. We get tangled up in the mechanics; we study knife techniques and meticulously measure out ingredients; we squirt squiggles and use toothpicks to achieve height, we roam from restaurant to restaurant. Not to say that such activities disappear in the wake of the French Epiphany, but they become secondary to the true essence of cooking.

This was my French Epiphany: Oeufs dur Mayonnaise at the original Laduree, almost 20 years ago. Just a plate of hard-boiled eggs with mayonnaise, crusty bread and a glass of the house rose. It was all so good it made me weep. I still weep when I think about it. This simple dish is so stripped down, every aspect is layed bare. It is a dish that thwarts any attempt to compensate for inferior ingredients; it is a celebration of the ingredients.

To have transcendent Oeufs dur Mayonnaise you must understand and give attention to each element of the dish, which means you actually begin preparing the dish when you go to the market and harrass the egg vendor to get the freshest eggs, and select the best-tasting mustard and oil for the mayonnaise, and conduct exhaustive taste-tests to find the perfect salt; in fact, you had begun to prepare this and every other dish when you first took spatula in hand and decided to cook something. Therein lies the French Epiphany: each dish, no matter the cuisine, has a soul, a platonic essence that can be revealed to the world. Whether you're making an ommelette, or stir-frying some greens, or baking some enchiladas, or grilling a burger -- if you honor the soul of what you are cooking, then you are cooking French.

[Hiroyuki]

OK, suppose that I have a specific question about French cuisines, for example, "How do I make rice stand out in a French meal?" and start a thread asking for replies, do you think I will get immediate response from members active in the France Forum?

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Well, is it that do you expect you won't, on this particular subject?

It's true that the French are not usually big experts on rice. Other nations are much better at it. There are weak points and undeveloped fields in every cuisine and this is one. Our habit of cooking rice in plenty of salted water (riz à la créole) has resulted in much soggy white stuff on dinner tables. But we're pretty good at provençal tians (plenty of flavors), baked rice puddings, and the technique of pilafs cooked in meat stocks has been mastered a long time ago by French cooks, resulting in delicious "riz au gras", my favorite recipe including bay leaf, whole almonds, a few sultanas and petits lardons.

I first found the recipe in a Claude Peyrot book, where this rice was to be used as stuffing for a guinea-fowl. It is wonderful and can be served on its own.

Just what kind of rice recipe would you like to read about?

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Thanks, Ptipois! I was just wondering how I could introduce rice into French dishes without causing resistance, in a "pleasant departure from the norm" sort of way. Your reply is enough to satisfy my curiosity. I think I can make some experiments with your suggestions in mind.

As much as I appreciate your immediate reply, I still feel inclined to start such a topic in the Cooking Forum rather than the France Forum.

[Busboy]

To paraphrase A. Bourdain, if not for the French, our idea of cuisine would be ham steaks with pineapple rings. To expand on that, I dare say without the French we'd have nothing worthwhile to discuss in these forums. We owe the French for the very idea that food is more than merely fuel. From that aspect, whenever you attempt to elevate anything you cook above the category of "grub", you are cooking French.

This is difficult to understand unless you've had a "French Epiphany", that moment when you realize the Zen of food. This is why French cuisine is often misunderstood, maligned, shunned and feared. Without the French Epiphany, there is a persistant and ingrained notion that there exist recipes, magical combinations of ingredients and cooking times, that will produce a transcendent eating experience. We get tangled up in the mechanics; we study knife techniques and meticulously measure out ingredients; we squirt squiggles and use toothpicks to achieve height, we roam from restaurant to restaurant. Not to say that such activities disappear in the wake of the French Epiphany, but they become secondary to the true essence of cooking.

This was my French Epiphany: Oeufs dur Mayonnaise at the original Laduree, almost 20 years ago. Just a plate of hard-boiled eggs with mayonnaise, crusty bread and a glass of the house rose. It was all so good it made me weep. I still weep when I think about it. This simple dish is so stripped down, every aspect is layed bare. It is a dish that thwarts any attempt to compensate for inferior ingredients; it is a celebration of the ingredients.

To have transcendent Oeufs dur Mayonnaise you must understand and give attention to each element of the dish, which means you actually begin preparing the dish when you go to the market and harrass the egg vendor to get the freshest eggs, and select the best-tasting mustard and oil for the mayonnaise, and conduct exhaustive taste-tests to find the perfect salt; in fact, you had begun to prepare this and every other dish when you first took spatula in hand and decided to cook something. Therein lies the French Epiphany: each dish, no matter the cuisine, has a soul, a platonic essence that can be revealed to the world. Whether you're making an ommelette, or stir-frying some greens, or baking some enchiladas, or grilling a burger -- if you honor the soul of what you are cooking, then you are cooking French.

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As much as I love French food, I expect that the Italians would disagree vehemently with your "all roads lead to Paris" analysis of fine dining and its origins. I expect that cooks the world over would disagree with the suggestion that we owe the idea of finding a fresh green bean, or haggling, for that matter, to the French. I even expect that the Greeks, who invented the Platonic Form, would disagree with your metaphysical analysis of the soul of an egg.

Edited March 16, 2005 by Busboy (log)

[chefzadi]

As much as I love French food, I expect that the Italians would disagree vehemently with your "all roads lead to Paris" analysis of fine dining and its origins. I expect that cooks the world over would disagree with the suggestion that we owe the idea of finding a fresh green bean, or haggling, for that matter, to the French. I even expect that the Greeks, who invented the Platonic Form, would disagree with your metaphysical analysis of the soul of an egg. biggrin.gif

Hey you! That's one of my favorite posts.

The French, or rather a few French, we're the first to codify the primordial culinary slime. It's the leg up we have.

I think that I just said nothing.

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"all roads lead to Paris"

Where else do they lead? Lyon, perhaps or Oran...

Edited March 17, 2005 by chefzadi (log)

[chefzadi]

OK, suppose that I have a specific question about French cuisines, for example, "How do I make rice stand out in a French meal?" and start a thread asking for replies, do you think I will get immediate response from members active in the France Forum?

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Well, is it that do you expect you won't, on this particular subject?

It's true that the French are not usually big experts on rice. Other nations are much better at it. There are weak points and undeveloped fields in every cuisine and this is one. Our habit of cooking rice in plenty of salted water (riz à la créole) has resulted in much soggy white stuff on dinner tables. But we're pretty good at provençal tians (plenty of flavors), baked rice puddings, and the technique of pilafs cooked in meat stocks has been mastered a long time ago by French cooks, resulting in delicious "riz au gras", my favorite recipe including bay leaf, whole almonds, a few sultanas and petits lardons.

I first found the recipe in a Claude Peyrot book, where this rice was to be used as stuffing for a guinea-fowl. It is wonderful and can be served on its own.

Just what kind of rice recipe would you like to read about?

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Thanks, Ptipois! I was just wondering how I could introduce rice into French dishes without causing resistance, in a "pleasant departure from the norm" sort of way. Your reply is enough to satisfy my curiosity. I think I can make some experiments with your suggestions in mind.

As much as I appreciate your immediate reply, I still feel inclined to start such a topic in the Cooking Forum rather than the France Forum.

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We do rice with chicken also. Blanquette de Veau can be served with rice.

Why start the topic in the cooking forum rather than here?

[Busboy]

It's my understanding that if Catherine d'Medici had been married off to some Dutchman rather than to Henry II, The Hague would be the culinary capitol of Europe and the French would be eating boiled vegetables (not turned) for dinner. With their fingers, by the way, since she introduced the fork to that rude and backward nation. (And what would haute cusine be like without and endless variety of forks to eat it with?)

[Busboy]

OK, suppose that I have a specific question about French cuisines, for example, "How do I make rice stand out in a French meal?" and start a thread asking for replies, do you think I will get immediate response from members active in the France Forum?

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Well, is it that do you expect you won't, on this particular subject?

It's true that the French are not usually big experts on rice. Other nations are much better at it. There are weak points and undeveloped fields in every cuisine and this is one. Our habit of cooking rice in plenty of salted water (riz à la créole) has resulted in much soggy white stuff on dinner tables. But we're pretty good at provençal tians (plenty of flavors), baked rice puddings, and the technique of pilafs cooked in meat stocks has been mastered a long time ago by French cooks, resulting in delicious "riz au gras", my favorite recipe including bay leaf, whole almonds, a few sultanas and petits lardons.

I first found the recipe in a Claude Peyrot book, where this rice was to be used as stuffing for a guinea-fowl. It is wonderful and can be served on its own.

Just what kind of rice recipe would you like to read about?

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Thanks, Ptipois! I was just wondering how I could introduce rice into French dishes without causing resistance, in a "pleasant departure from the norm" sort of way. Your reply is enough to satisfy my curiosity. I think I can make some experiments with your suggestions in mind.

As much as I appreciate your immediate reply, I still feel inclined to start such a topic in the Cooking Forum rather than the France Forum.

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We do rice with chicken also. Blanquette de Veau can be served with rice.

Why start the topic in the cooking forum rather than here?

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Don't forget ris de veau.

Kidding.

[chefzadi]

It's my understanding that if Catherine d'Medici had been married off to some Dutchman rather than to Henry II, The Hague would be the culinary capitol of Europe and the French would be eating boiled vegetables (not turned) for dinner.  With their fingers, by the way, since she introduced the fork to that rude and backward nation.  (And what would haute cusine be like without and endless variety of forks to eat it with?)

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Have you heard the stories about Catherine and the horses? Or am I thinking about a different Catherine? Equally great, of course.

The Hague just doesn't have the same terroir. Good for growing pot and redlights.

[Bux]

The fork has found it's way to Canada and Mexico. I think it would have found it's way to France. Perhaps I'm misinterpreting you. Perhaps if Catherine had brought the fork to Holland, it would have gotten no further and died in Holland, while haute cuisine would be cuisine eaten with the fingers. The thought of the Dutch determining the main tradition of western cuisine is less than appealing.

Some interesting points have arisen in the past few posts. French cuisine is highly regarded as the finest in Europe for points west, northwest, north, northeast and perhaps east of France, but much less so in Spain and Italy. Is there a lot of truth in that?

[Pan]

[...]

And yeah, I think the relative scarcity of cheap/takeout French in the States compared to other cuisines does have something to do with it too (never thought I'd hear myself say I'm missing the Harvard Square Au Bon Pain, but there you go...)[...]

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Au Bon Pain? Yuck! Au mauvais pain! Pain au raisin with raisins with sulfur dioxide!

Here in New York, we have Le Pain Quotidien. I doubt it compares favorably to the average boulangerie in Paris, but it's certainly a lot better than Au Bon Pain (of which we have a bunch in New York), and it does qualify to me as French (sort of) takeout food. Then again, this is New York, by far the most populous city in the US.

When I was in Nice, I got all kinds of stuff to take out, but again, it was practically all at boulangeries and glaceries. Chaussons aux pommes, tartes aux poires, tortes aux blettes, tartes pommes et amandes, various kinds of ice cream (it was summertime!), occasionally a savory tarte (e.g., tomates et poivrons). I think my French fellow students usually got only ice cream to take away and otherwise ate things wherever they bought them. That said, some sandwicheries were mainly counters onto the street.

[Busboy]

The fork has found it's way to Canada and Mexico. I think it would have found it's way to France. Perhaps I'm misinterpreting you. Perhaps if Catherine had brought the fork to Holland, it would have gotten no further and died in Holland, while haute cuisine would be cuisine eaten with the fingers. The thought of the Dutch determining the main tradition of western cuisine is less than appealing.

Some interesting points have arisen in the past few posts. French cuisine is highly regarded as the finest in Europe for points west, northwest, north, northeast and perhaps east of France, but much less so in Spain and Italy. Is there a lot of truth in that?

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I assure you that my tongue was wholly in cheek, and that I was merely underscoring the strong belief in some circles that haute cuisine flourished in Italy for many decades before it reached France (along with the fork, and ice cream) when Catherine brought her court to Paris.

Besides, even in Dutch hands, the fork would at least have reached as far as New Amsterdam and Hudson Bay.

[mizducky]

[...]

And yeah, I think the relative scarcity of cheap/takeout French in the States compared to other cuisines does have something to do with it too (never thought I'd hear myself say I'm missing the Harvard Square Au Bon Pain, but there you go...)[...]

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Au Bon Pain? Yuck! Au mauvais pain! Pain au raisin with raisins with sulfur dioxide!

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Heh. That's exactly why I'm saying I never thought I'd hear myself saying that I missed it.

[Ptipois]

So the French do snack after all!!

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Well, of course we do.

But it's not our strong point, even if some regions are better at it than others.

[Ptipois]

[As much as I appreciate your immediate reply, I still feel inclined to start such a topic in the Cooking Forum rather than the France Forum.  

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Up to you, Hiroyuki! But I realize that other subforums (Middle East, Asia, etc.) do dedicate threads to cooking questions. Now I see no reason why the French subforum should be treated differently — although I am well aware of the particular status of French cooking: in its highest aspects, it is too intimidating to allow people ask to questions about it; and in its practical aspects, it has become so well-integrated in the general vision of cuisine, like a synonym of cuisine itself, that it is automatically led to more general subforums. An idea that was beautifully expressed by Ivan ("Whether you're making an ommelette, or stir-frying some greens, or baking some enchiladas, or grilling a burger -- if you honor the soul of what you are cooking, then you are cooking French.") — when I read that I just thought: Wow!

Personally, I am for re-establishing the frenchness of my native cuisine and doing it right here! But I agree that many cooking experiments find their natural place in the Cooking Forum.

Edited March 17, 2005 by Ptipois (log)

[Carlovski]

I assure you that my tongue was wholly in cheek, and that I was merely underscoring the strong belief in some circles that haute cuisine flourished in Italy for many decades before it reached France (along with the fork, and ice cream) when Catherine brought her court to Paris. 

Besides, even in Dutch hands, the fork would at least have reached as far as New Amsterdam and Hudson Bay.

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And for centuries in China.......

But I digress,

There is definite a different bias across the forums, the Indian cuisine forum is probably 70% or higher cooking related, where as the New York forums has very little (A fare few 'ingredient' type questions though)

My home forum (UK) gets the odd one.

I think there is a bit of difference, I'd say a fair proportion of the general eGullet membership would say they had a fair knowledge of french cusine and technique, but not so with other cuisines, hence the common situation where if a question is posted in the cooking or general forum on French cuisine, unless it is highly specialised will tend to get answered there wheras a question on Indian food for example will be answered with a suggestion to post it in the relevant regional forum.

[FaustianBargain]

It's my understanding that if Catherine d'Medici had been married off to some Dutchman rather than to Henry II, The Hague would be the culinary capitol of Europe and the French would be eating boiled vegetables (not turned) for dinner.  With their fingers, by the way, since she introduced the fork to that rude and backward nation.  (And what would haute cusine be like without and endless variety of forks to eat it with?)

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Catherine de Medici married the future king of France, Henry II in 1533. Without the Italian influence and the introduction of herbs and Italian produce..not to mention the hoardes of Italian chefs she brought with her...French cuisine wouldnt have evolved as it had...

Keeping that in mind..almost half a century earlier, in 1475, King Matthias married the daughter of the King of Naples. In order to make life beyond Italian borders bearable(oh!!!...the suffering women endure to perpetuate the human species. and for world peace...within europe, that is), the bride brought with her ingredients not previously known in her new marital country..tomatoes, onions, peppers..of course, Italian chefs. Now...how often do you write home about Hungarian cuisine?

Edited March 17, 2005 by FaustianBargain (log)

[Ptipois]

Hey you!  That's one of my favorite posts.

The French, or rather a few French, we're the first to codify the primordial culinary slime. It's the leg up we have.

I think that I just said nothing. 

EDIT

"all roads lead to Paris"

Where else do they lead? Lyon, perhaps or Oran...

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I do agree with Chefzadi (and Ivan, who wrote my favorite post too). As a general rule I believe that, delicious as it is, Italian cuisine is a bit overestimated the world over and French cuisine a bit underestimated in the way that it is not taken for what it really is. It has been inflated somewhat, made excessively upscale, and its intrinsic simplicity, its humble genius was completely overlooked. Now Italian cuisine is primarily a cuisine based on perfect ingredients with not that much preparation or skill over them. For this reason, perhaps, I think it tastes the best in Italy, in its own surroundings, and I'm not interested in Italian restaurants outside of Italy. French cuisine, in its most traditional and genuine aspects (not the most sophisticated, I insist), has indeed some magic attached to it, something quasi mystical. I believe it's that quasi mystical character that has made it so famous, even though this character may have disappeared in much of modern French cooking.

I've known Italian cooking to have just that same kind of magic. But I also noticed that this magic cannot be exported. The French have found a way of codifying it and preserving it, and this union of the mystical-ethereal and the practical is quite unique in Europe.

[Ptipois]

It's my understanding that if Catherine d'Medici had been married off to some Dutchman rather than to Henry II, The Hague would be the culinary capitol of Europe and the French would be eating boiled vegetables (not turned) for dinner.  With their fingers, by the way, since she introduced the fork to that rude and backward nation.  (And what would haute cusine be like without and endless variety of forks to eat it with?)

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No way. Importing culture and refinement to a place is one thing, having them take root is quite another thing. The "terrain", the ground where the seed is sown, is primordial. And France had the perfect terrain for the culinary tradition to take root. It already had a past. I really do not think cuisine would have evolved in the Lowlands as it did in France; besides, the Spanish presence in that region has not brought a revolution in cooking either. On the other hand, the Italian presence at the Hungarian court in the Middle Ages and Renaissance has influenced cooking as well, but the results were totally different: they helped to shape a genuinely Hungarian tradition, just as the Italian influence helped to shape a genuinely French tradition without being its main inspiration.

Also, it it not true that Catherine de Medici has brought enlightenment to barbarian French cooks, as is often said. Her cooks and gardeners brought fresh vegetables that became very successful, but the mention of petits pois with bacon and lettuce, for instance, existed before her arrival. There already was a strong and fine culinary tradition in France before that, and all influences mixed in gracefully. Also, the Italian influence was mostly on courtly cooking, which is only a small part of the landscape.

The addition of new ingredients to the European diet after the discovery of the Americas brought much more of a culinary revolution than courtly influences, which were all over Europe at the time, since courts and aristocracies were supranational.

[FaustianBargain]

hmm.. there a new business opportunity fast french food.

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ongoing. I already have a business plan typed out. But you have to sign a NDA to read it..