AGA Ranges

[Boris_A]

Many years ago, when Molteni was bought by Electrolux, quite a bunch of Molteni people left and went to Bonnet-Cidelcem, a pure French company, and continued with Molteni-style there.

Bonnet was the leading innovator for high-perf. induction modules. All those huge installations (I've seen a 12x12ft one piece island at the Molteni factory in production) are every inch made to measure. Many of them use induction and iron cast flattops side by side. The surrounding worktops are made from 1/8" thick stainless steel, the frames are built of rectangular steel tubes. Indestructbale.

If I'd construct a (holiday) home high up in the mountains, where you have to heat 10 months out of 12, I'd go for a Rayburn of Aga-Rayburn, a stove which prodcues hot water and central heating. This would be financially and energetically quite attractive.

Edited February 11, 2005 by Boris_A (log)

[Jason Perlow]

If I'd construct a (holiday) home high up in the mountains, where you have to heat 10 months out of 12, I'd go for a Rayburn of Aga-Rayburn, a stove which prodcues hot water and central heating. This would be financially and energetically quite attractive.

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Their regular cooker models look exactly like regular AGAs, though. Sort of like the relationship between Bentley and Rolls Royce?

[Boris_A]

Their regular cooker models look exactly like regular AGAs, though. Sort of like the relationship between Bentley and Rolls Royce?

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Or Jaguar and Daimler.

But today, Rolls is a BMW and Bentley a Volkswagen and they are completely different. C'est la vie.

[budrichard]

I am now sorry that I said my wish was to have an Aga. I didn't mean to cause such a ruckus on eGullet. I will keep my mouth shut from now on.

Aga is obviously not for the American market, that is why they do not sell well there.

Go buy Viking and Wolf.

The Europeans and this Middle Easterner will buy Molteni, Aga and other brands.

Viva la difference!

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Don't be sorry, a lot of good information is being discussed.

By way of background, I am a Nuclear Engineer. In my career, I was a Senior Reactor Operator licensed by the Nuclear Regulatory Commision. In that position on shift managing Nuclear Reactors, I also was the Fire Chief and so trained to direct the suppression of fires. (These are the types of people that initially died at Chernobyl). When I became Operations Manager, off shift, I was also the Fire Marshal who the Fire Chief's reported to. So I have considerable experience in dealing with NFPA and other applicable codes.

The way it works with most codes that I know of including the American Society of Mechanical Enginerrs that governs all manufacturing, installation and testing of Nuclear Power pressure retaining equipment is that the Authorized Insurance Inspector verifies that what you are doing is to the applicable code including NFPA. They have seperate inspectors for the various disciplines. If you are not following code you lose your insurance coverage and therefore cannot operate. The same applies to home coverage. The various codes, whether Fire Protection, Electrical, Plumbing are there for your safety. To install a Professional range in a residential home without meeting code is unsafe as previously stated.

The comment about fans and hoods is correct. Over our Viking 4 burner has a two fan ducted hood that covers the entire range. The duct work is about 20" in diameter and leads to the outside. It is there heat as much as smoke and odors. With both fans on, it sounds like a 'Tomcat' spooling up before launch off a carrier.

For safety, I used to keep a portable Halon unit but with the demise of Halon, I now have Co2 and dry powder. Oh yes, I also was Director of Nuclear Safety.-Dick

[NulloModo]

The AGA seems like a really bizarre concept for a stove, but I can see how it could be somewhat appealing. The one thing I really don't get though, and the same is true for induction cooktops, is why you want that huge flat cooking surface with no real burners? It seems like that huge flat top would take a while to heat up a pan, and if your pans are at all warped on the bottom (as most of mine are) they aren't going to heat up evenly, where with gas the flames will get everything going even if it isn't really touching the grate.

Induction just seems sorta gimmicky, I wouldn't buy any stove that limited that materials my pans could be made of.

With regards to the codes arguments above:

I realize the codes are there for a reason, but you know as well as I do that there is plenty of 'wiggle room' built into them.

[winesonoma]

The AGA seems like a really bizarre concept for a stove, but I can see how it could be somewhat appealing.  The one thing I really don't get though, and the same is true for induction cooktops, is why you want that huge flat cooking surface with no real burners?  It seems like that huge flat top would take a while to heat up a pan, and if your pans are at all warped on the bottom (as most of mine are) they aren't going to heat up evenly, where with gas the flames will get everything going even if it isn't really touching the grate.

Induction just seems sorta gimmicky, I wouldn't buy any stove that limited that materials my pans could be made of. 

With regards to the codes arguments above:

I realize the codes are there for a reason, but you know as well as I do that there is plenty of 'wiggle room' built into them.

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Not with the inspectors I've dealt with. They have the final word, period.

[NulloModo]

Not with the inspectors I've dealt with. They have the final word, period.

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I didn't mean the inspectors, I meant the actual codes and safety. I agree, dealing with inspectors, or, for that matter, govt. officials of any kind, can be an exercise in futility if you expect to be able to actually get anywhere other than where they want to go.

I just meant that a lot of the required safety bits in building codes are a bit overkill in what they call for and what requires that they be added. A little common sense and caution and you should never run into a situation where you would need a professional halon fire extiguishing system, so having one installed in your home seems a bit beyond wacky just to meet a code, that's all I meant. Sure, you are increasing yourself to more risk, but you are also saving lots of money, and as long as you can live with your risk, I don't see where building inspectors should get to come into it, especially not for a freestanding house where if it burns down it is only your ass in the fire.

[nathanm]

Building inspectors like to claim they have final word, but in fact there is a well established procedure to escalate and appeal. It is not easy, but it can be done.

Codes do have wiggle room. They also have mistakes (specifying things that are physically impossible), and inconsistencies. Large building projects have code consultants who get paid a lot just for dealing with the many weird issues.

You can make a hood quiet - it does not have to sound like a tomcat taking off, but you need huge fans and ducts so you move the right CFM with lower velocity air.

[nathanm]

To respond about induction. I think it is the best way to cook on top a stove - bar none. It has HUGE advantages.

First, only the pan gets hot. When you have a huge gas burner (and I do have a few of them), most of the BTU goes up the hood as hot air. So, out of 110,000 BTU, the amount that is actually delivered to the pan or wok is only a fraction of that. This is both wasteful of energy, but it also drives having a big hood to suck all that hot air out of the room. Most of what the hood is doing is NOT related to the cooking it is related to the waste heat from the burner that is doing you no good. The kitchen also says cool.

Second, the pan heats FAST. Normal cooking (gas, radiant, electric) applies heat to the bottom of a pan, and then it takes a while for the heat to conduct through the pan to the food. That is why copper and aluminum are used for the bottoms of pans - they conduct well. Cast iron conducts much more poorly which is why it tends only to be used for some kinds of pots and pan (Le Cruset notwithstanding).

Induction heats the metal in the pan itself, so it heats much faster. There is no point in having copper in an induction pan - the pan itself is getting heated by the magnetic field generated by the "burner". This transmits leves of heat to the pan and food MUCH faster than the best copper pans.

Third, it is very even. You get very uniform results because again it is the pan that is getting hot, and it does so very uniformly.

Fourth, you get incredible control over the heat level. You can easily melt chocolate or do other delicate operations on induction that normally require a bain marie. Or, you can crank it up and melt the teflon coating off a pan in a matter of seconds (yes, I have done that). Because the pan heats so fast you can

Fifth, the burner stays cold and is easy to clean. Right under the pan, it gets hot because the pan heat conducts a bit to the burner. However, you can put your hand down on the burner, right beside a pan (just don't touch the pan) and not feel a thing. A quick wipe and it is clean.

Yes, you need a special pan. So what? Good performance on a regular stove requires good pans too. Nearly every major cookware company now produces induction pans.

Gas is still useful if you want to do something like char the skin from a pepper with the open flame, but it is really not a very good way to do pan based cooking. Gas may be necessary in a mountain cabin or some other place without decent electrical supply.

Meawhile electric (includnig radiant) isn't even good for peppers. There just isn't any area where electric is superior to induction.

Many people already have gas and electric, and that is fine - nobody needs to switch if they don't want to. As somebody else said vive la difference. Subjectively you can do what you want. However objectively, induction is a fantastic technology.

Note that ovens are an entirely different issue...this is just about stovetop range cooking.

[Boris_A]

I just meant that a lot of the required safety bits in building codes are a bit overkill in what they call for and what requires that they be added.  A little common sense and caution

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These codes would have made a lot of sense in medieval towns, when a fire was REALLY catastrophic.

In a suburb with widely spread homes, there should be more tolerance and self-responsibilty.

All in all, commercial ranges are pretty safe. The most endangered items are your fingers and your hairs when turning on a 35KBTU burner.

A pro-style-stove is definitely less dangerous than a rifle. "You have to take my Molteni from my cold hands..."

Edited February 11, 2005 by Boris_A (log)

[mnebergall]

On the insurance issue, the terms of your policy will control. Whether or not installation of a true commercial range will violate the terms of a homeowners insurance policy can be determined by reading the policy. So long as the commercial range is installed according the manufacturers instructions, there likely will be little issue with the insurance company in the event of a claim, unless there is some sort of specific language in the policy that touches on the issue commercial ranges.

On the issue of building codes and inspectors, they likely would not be implicated or involved unless you had to get a building permit to install your stove or to make modifications to your kitchen to meet the installation instructions. If no building permit is needed, none of that other stuff comes into play.

That having been said, commercial ranges are generally not suitable for home use. If you need some extra high power on the range, it appears that competition in that area is heating up among manfacturers of residential "pro-style" ranges. Bluestar recently came out with models that have 22K BTU/hr burners on the range. I would look for others to either follow suit or leapfrog the competition. There is less and less need to look to commercial ranges to obtain commerical power.

[winesonoma]

Building inspectors like to claim they have final word, but in fact there is a well established procedure to escalate and appeal.   It is not easy, but it can be done.

Codes do have wiggle room.  They also have mistakes (specifying things that are physically impossible), and inconsistencies.  Large building projects have code consultants who get paid a lot just for dealing with the many weird issues.

You can make a hood quiet - it does not have to sound like a tomcat taking off, but you need huge fans and ducts so you move the right CFM with lower velocity air.

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Yea that's just what a contractor wants to do; piss off the inspector. That way every job you do get's gone over with a fine tooth comb. I had that happen once (not my fault, different foreman, same co). He stopped a 5 million dollar project on the last day and made us redesign and replace the ceiling. In a hospital with patients already scheduled for the next day. 6 months earlier he approved the exact same ceiling at another hospital. Yea piss off the inspector and learn what hell is like.

Edited February 11, 2005 by winesonoma (log)

[polack]

I just meant that a lot of the required safety bits in building codes are a bit overkill in what they call for and what requires that they be added.  A little common sense and caution

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These codes would have made a lot of sense in medieval towns, when a fire was REALLY catastrophic.

In a suburb with widely spread homes, there should be more tolerance and self-responsibilty.

All in all, commercial ranges are pretty safe. The most endangered items are your fingers and your hairs when turning on a 35KBTU burner.

A pro-style-stove is definitely less dangerous than a rifle. "You have to take my Molteni from my cold hands..."

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And one of the reasons that those ranges are safe is because of codes that not only pertain to the structure but also to the stove itself. When I redone my kitchen I looked at getting a commercial Viking or Wolf but had to rethink because they couldn't be near cabinetry, ended up with a DCS for home use. Oh yes I had to add a couple grand onto the price of the stove.

Polack

[mnebergall]

Many people look into getting a commecial range because the prices are so much lower than the pro-style residential units. However, the cost saving is probably illusory becasue you have to spend extra for oversize ventilation and increased insulation and probably something to provide "make-up" air. All in all, it's probably a push.

[NulloModo]

Many people look into getting a commecial range because the prices are so much lower than the pro-style residential units. However, the cost saving is probably illusory becasue you have to spend extra for oversize ventilation and increased insulation and probably something to provide "make-up" air.  All in all, it's probably a push.

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That is what I have been saying all along. It only costs more if you actually care about the codes and bother to follow through with them. If you just use some common sense, get decent ventilation, and are careful with your new toy, you can save a bundle.

I understand the insurance can be tricky, but hey, saving the money for me would be worth the gamble. Then again, I don't have homeowners or renters insurance of any kind, so, I guess if it all goes up in smoke I am really fucked. Oh well, I can live with that risk, if you are willing to or not is a matter of personal preference.

[jayt90]

For those of us like myself who cook as a hobby, and don't have a lot of money to throw around, there are cast iron gas burners available from Italy, each putting out up to 30k BTU. I believe these are widely used all around the Mediterranean.

I use a three burner patio stove, with a propane tank, on my patio, or inside the lean-to greenhouse in winter, with a CO detector. It is about the same size and shape as an electronic piano.The cost was about $200. There is enough output to heat a wok hot enough for chile oil, and that is hot enough for me!

[nathanm]

I agree that you can approach these things cheaply - at some loss of convienence. Similar gas burners are sold in turkey frying kits.

Continuing on the theme mentioned earlier, on Induction - you can get into this very cheaply.

Induction burners are available as standalone hot plates - like $550 for 1800 watts, $750 for 2500 watts, $850 for 3500 watts.

These are not quite as powerful as your big gas burners, but they are a LOT safer - no risk of CO, no risk of fire from the unit itself (stuff in the pan could burn).

[winesonoma]

For those of us like myself who cook as a hobby, and don't have a lot of money to throw around, there are cast iron gas burners available from Italy, each putting out up to 30k BTU. I believe these are widely used all around the Mediterranean.

I use a three burner patio stove, with a propane tank, on my patio, or inside the lean-to greenhouse in winter, with a CO detector.  It is about the same size and shape as an electronic piano.The cost was about $200.  There is enough output to heat a wok hot enough for chile oil, and that is hot enough for me!

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I have a two burner in the back of my truck I use for camping just like that. http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/template...MainCatcat20075

Edited February 12, 2005 by winesonoma (log)

[budrichard]

For those that think that the Codes are something to be trifled with, I suggest that you talk to your local Fire Investigator. He will tell you that in almost every case of a fatal fire, it resulted from either non adherence to Fire Codes, faulty equipment or an open source of ignition(flame).

If you have never fought a fire either for real or in a 'Burn Down' building under training, you have no idea of what potential you are dealing with. The Codes are there to save lives. They were developed because before Codes, there was unacceptable loss of life.

End of topic for me. -Dick

[andiesenji]

Exactly what I was saying. When I lived down below in the Valley and had the Garland, when it was installed, all of the upper cabinets had to be removed and the floor, back wall and ceiling were lined with firebrick and stainless steel - my husband at the time was a plasterer so he could do all the work, and a friend did the metal work and ducting, as we had to have a larger flue for the exhaust hood - the old one was only 6 inch, which was fine when the house was built in 1957, but codes had changed and for the Garland we had to have the larger one and also had to have a new gas meter and bigger gas line and THAT required a permit and certification by the fire marshall as well as building and safety.

When it came time to sell the house, having the records of the various permits of the work that was done, showing that the changes were legal, made it much easier.

And here is something that many people do not consider. Your homeowner's insurance only covers a finite amount of "personal property" which includes your appliances and TV, etc.

When you add something new, inform your agent, send him a copy of the sales contract and a photo of the new appliance and add it on to your policy. It will only add a few dollars onto the cost of your policy but in case of fire, or catastrophic damage, you will get full value for a new one and prorated value if it is a few years old, instead of having it lumped in with the rest of your personal property. Add it up and see how much you will have to come up with out of your own pocket if you don't do it this way, particularly if you have a large TV, or any particularly valuable piece of furniture. With photos in his files and records of individual items, you won't have to prove that you had something in the house in case of total loss.

This is especially important if you have multiple refrigerators, freezers, dishwashers and etc., because the policies that do have an option for appliances in addition to other personal property only figure on one of each.