Need advice on French Burgundy

[Brad Ballinger]

i thought quite interesting vs. going to restaurants with excellent wine lists, but most within the last few yrs & sort of heresy to drink "before their time"????

also, as my earlier comparison: chambolle-musigny vs volnay & thx to winebabe; looking to compare & contrast: gevrey-chambertin vs aloxe-corton.

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The first comment first, but then back to the topic. Restaurants only have som much cubic feet in their cellars, need to turn over inventory to make money, etc. Therefore, very few are able to delay the profit on a bottle until it is as old as Arpy recommends for the drinking window.

Gevrey-Chambertin v. Aloxe-Corton

I'm nowhere close to being expert, and arguably not even knowledgeable, so I hope others will add. First, it's a little difficult to compare/contrast village to village within the Cote d'Or. A slightly better approch might be to discuss the characteristics of each AOC (whether it be village, premier cru, or grand cru).

G-V is in the northern part of the Cote de Nuits. The only other classified villages further north are Fixin and Marsannay. There are nine grand cru vineyards associated with the village. With G-V and its vineyards covering such a large territory, there are a large number of producers here, so you will see a large variation in quality. But the northern locale *generally* means wines that tend toward more acid longer development, blah blah blah. In great vintages, the wines can be wonderfully complex and long-time agers.

A-C is in the northern part of the Cote de Beaune. Both red and white wines are produced from grapes grown there. There is one grand cru for red wines (Corton). But here is where it gets confusing with Corton. Within the Corton grand cru are roughly 30 (maybe a few less) vineyards that can either use their vineyard name (e.g., Corton Clos du Roi) or just use the name Corton. But since there is also a vineyard named Le Corton, many do the Corton Clos du Roi thing. A-C wines can age very well. Overall production is less, vineyard area is less, so you don't see as many of these wines, nor experience the huge variations in quality such as you might with G-V wines.

[chefzadi]

Someone asked why more people aren't participating. I keep eyeing this thread. I grew up in the Beaujolais where the Rhone and Burgundy meet (the locals stull argue about which region it's in.) It's a big topic. I can talk about the region, (food more so). But the wines have been out of my budget for some time (kids ya know, if someone "adopts" them for a couple of months I could try ALOT of great wine and report back ) so I couldn't recommend a specific bottle.

But this topic is so onerous. I don't even know where to start contributing to this thread.

Maybe this will be my last post on the thread.

[jgould]

Someone asked why more people aren't participating. I keep eyeing this thread. I grew up in the Beaujolais where the Rhone and Burgundy meet (the locals stull argue about which region it's in.) It's a big topic. I can talk about the region, (food more so). But the wines have been out of my budget for some time (kids ya know, if someone "adopts" them for a couple of months I could try ALOT of great wine and report back  ) so I couldn't recommend a specific bottle.

But this topic is so onerous. I don't even know where to start contributing to this thread.

Maybe this will be my last post on the thread. 

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i hear u loud & clear. this will probably be my last post also, but not due to the topic being "onerous". however, i do wonder, what was the point of YOUR post? &, if beaujolais is out of your budget, why bother to post at all??

[chefzadi]

The more expensive one's are out of my budget. I'm familiar with the terroir over there.

Terroir and wine, thought they might be related. I'm a chef too, so I do have quite bit of knowledge regarding foods of the region and what the characterisitcs of the accompanying wine should be. Food and wine, thought they might be related. I do know enough about wine to be asked to lecture about it. It's not my lifeblood, so I can't rattle off names of this years best..

What's the point of my post? If I asked myself before every post I made I'd never post.

Edited February 16, 2005 by chefzadi (log)

[winebabe]

Why is this topic "onerous"? I thought that the whole spirit of it was to be educational and informative?

It makes me want to go and do a bit of research on the subject and by posting it here, it acts as a learning tool. My posts are not intended to be condescending by any means.

I, for one would love to continue this discussion.

As for your point about Beaujolais being either a Rhone or a Burgundy, I consider it neither, but a region unto itself. The predominant red grape is gamay, wheras it is syrah in the rhone, and pinot noir in burgundy. To me, it has its own distinct identity.

I see good quality Beaujolais Villages as one of the greatest wine values in France and look for small producers rather that those god awful Duboeuf wines that all taste the same.

some of my favorites:

Thivin - Cotes de Brouilly

Chignard - Fleurie

Diochon - Moulin-a-Vent

Thevenet - Morgon

Terres Dorees l'Ancien & Moulin-a-Vent. He also makes an outstanding white beaujolais made with chardonnay.

These are imorted by either Kermit Lynch or Louis Dressner and are not really too much of a hit on the wallet, unless of course, you are used to paying for Duboeuf beaujolais nouveau, which should be hitting the closeout bins right about now at 3.99.

Edited February 17, 2005 by winebabe (log)

[chefzadi]

jeez. um.. English is not my first language. I should have looked up "onerous" before posted. I meant diificult, challenging. Instead of focusing on ONE word, can you all please consider that not everyone here is a native speaker of English. Maybe I didn't make it clear in the ways that I can contribute to the thread. Wine and terroir, Food and wine, etc...

[winebabe]

jeez. um.. English is not my first language. I should have looked up "onerous" before posted. I meant diificult, challenging. Instead of focusing on ONE word, can you all please consider that not everyone here is a native speaker of English. Maybe I didn't make it clear in the ways that I can contribute to the thread. Wine and terroir, Food and wine, etc...

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My apologies chefzadi. Please contribute, as it is a very challenging topic and we all benefit from discussion.

[davidbdesilva]

Well, as the one who started this topic I have been quietly devouring all your excellent input. Some of it is starting to make sense, some of it less so because I've not had some of the wines discussed. Some of the recent low end reds I've had have been a Jadot Marsannay which, for around $18 I enjoyed at a nice restaurant, but seemed to lack much depth or character. During restaurant week here in Philly, I had a 1999 Potel Santenay 1er which I enjoyed (I didn't enjoy the $75 price tag though, espcially when I saw it for $28.50 in the wine store).

I have also recently had some Pouilly-Fuisse's that I've enjoyed as well. Not to start another topic but, what's the general opinion on these wines? I know they are not top flight white burgundies but I enjoy them and wonder if they are good values or not. I really like some Premier Cru Chablis' as well, which seem to be good values. Thanks again!

[chefzadi]

I'm partial to Pouilly Fuissé. Pouilly and Fuissé are actually two different villages in the

Mâconnais (a few minutes from where I grew up). The wine can come from five villages in the area, the two I mentioned plus Vergisson, Chaintre and Solutré.

Are they a good value? Only you can answer whether they are a good value for yourself. Do you like the aromas of apples and minerals in Chardonnay? Maybe there is a bit of vanilla, honey and spice? It's good at 2-3 years, better at 4-5. It can age even more 20 years perhaps. So maybe it's not the most revered of Burgundy whites, but it is still a very good wine.

[MaxH]

... I grew up in the Beaujolais where the Rhone and Burgundy meet (the locals stull argue about which region it's in.)

One of the mainstream US wine writers a generation ago (Alexis Bespaloff?) quoted a local quip that three rivers flow into the town of Lyon, south of the Beaujolais region: The Rhône, the Saône, and the river of Beaujolais [wine]. (Meaning, then, mostly traditional or "real" Beaujolais -- the growth in marketing and production of the seasonal "Beaujolais Nouveau" still lay in the future.)

-- Max

[kazuo]

Terrific thread and some tremendous info. Another nice entry level burg is Simon Bize's Savigny les Beaune. The 99 Marconnets was the house burg for a while; it's the one I see most often in Tokyo. The Aux Guettes and Vergelesses don't show up as often here but are both worth trying. My guess is that the 01's and 02's will both be nice. The Roumier village Chambolle is also nice but a bit pricey for a village wine. In addition to the Chorey that Brad mentioned, Tollot Beaut also makes a nice Aloxe Corton. Also look for Lafarge's "vendage selectionne" village Volnays.

[MaxH]

...In addition to the Chorey that Brad mentioned, Tollot Beaut also makes a nice Aloxe Corton.  Also look for Lafarge's "vendage selectionne" village Volnays.

(Hey, watch it. It's one thing to be helpful, but you don't need to spill the beans ... )

A little more Yoxall, by way of review and recommendation, if anyone is interested (especially anyone who followed this back here from the "24-carat" thread):

There is a much-quoted Burgundian saying about Chambertin, that it is `like the Good Lord in velvet trousers, gliding down your gullet.’ This strikes me as one of the silliest among the many silly sayings about wine. But Chambertin is certainly velvety. ...

A church dignitary of Conti’s acquaintance, to whom the prince had sent a sample, was the first, but by no means the last, to describe [Vosne-Romanée] wines as `at once velvet and satin.’ (No nonsense here about God and trousers.) ...

There are two of the comparatively rare Burgundy châteaux at Chambolle-Musigny, neither very old and each called the Châteaux de Chambolle-Musigny, which is not very helpful. The older one has splendid cellars. ...

I have paid out little money to better end than that which I have spent on sound burgundy.

-- H. W. Yoxall, The Wines of Burgundy, 1968, ISBN 0140462007, or 2nd edition, ISBN 0812860918.

[chefzadi]

... I grew up in the Beaujolais where the Rhone and Burgundy meet (the locals stull argue about which region it's in.)

One of the mainstream US wine writers a generation ago (Alexis Bespaloff?) quoted a local quip that three rivers flow into the town of Lyon, south of the Beaujolais region: The Rhône, the Saône, and the river of Beaujolais [wine]. (Meaning, then, mostly traditional or "real" Beaujolais -- the growth in marketing and production of the seasonal "Beaujolais Nouveau" still lay in the future.)

-- Max

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The first time I saw the "marketing campaign" I was a young man attending school in Paris. It all seemed a bit strange. I remember La fête du beaujolais when I was growing up. It was a very casual thing. The wine wasn't even bottled it was poured into jugs/carafes and drunk on the spot.

So now we are in the future and it's more of an "event" outside of the Beaujolais than it is there. I've read some criticisms of the quality of some of Beaujolais Nouveaus. Pointless really, it's best had as fresh as possible. Btw, I don't think I'll be digging through the close out bins for $3.99 bottles of it right now.

The production effort to meet the demands for the Beaujolais Nouveau take away from efforts at the "real" Beaujolais. But it also feeds the local economy which is agricultural. I've been posting on the France forum as well, discussing the current quality of foods in France, the move away from agriculture, etc. When I go back to visit my maman, things are pretty much the way they have always been. Local farmer's still provide the freshest produce and artisanal cheeses. I wonder if it were not for the success of Beaujolais Nouveau what would have happened to the local agricultural economy.

[Brad Ballinger]

...In addition to the Chorey that Brad mentioned, Tollot Beaut also makes a nice Aloxe Corton.  Also look for Lafarge's "vendage selectionne" village Volnays.

(Hey, watch it. It's one thing to be helpful, but you don't need to spill the beans ... )

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Really? You think Tollot-Beaut is under the radar of many Burgundy buyers?

[MaxH]

The first time I saw the [beaujolais Nouveau] "marketing campaign" I was a young man attending school in Paris. It all seemed a bit strange. I remember La fête du beaujolais when I was growing up. It was a very casual thing. The wine wasn't even bottled it was poured into jugs/carafes and drunk on the spot.

Exactly. When I was learning about wine in the middle 1970s, Beaujolais Nouveau was a footnote in wine writing, a frivolous thing "consumed by the pitcher by the locals in the bistros of Lyon," not a wine to travel, or to fuss over

In 1977 Narsai's restaurant in Kensington, California saw big fuss over a shipment by air of the Nouveau that year, at if I remember, $15 (1977 dollars, circa $45 today) per carafe. My introduction to the departure from the Nouveau's tradition, and the manufacturing of a new one. (Wine writers soon mentioned a new marketing campaign.)

So now we are in the future and it's more of an "event" outside of the Beaujolais than it is there. ... But it also feeds the local economy which is agricultural. Local farmer's still provide the freshest produce and artisanal cheeses. I wonder if it were not for the success of Beaujolais Nouveau what would have happened to the local agricultural economy.

Excellent point. Life flourishes amid just such complexities and tradeoffs.

-- Max

“Santé, gaieté, espérance!”

[LindaK]

My first post on the wine forum--thanks to a puzzling experience with a pricey burgundy. I'm glad my search turned up this thread, it was a relief to read your comments and learn that this is probably a typical experience.

Short story: a highly recommended bottle of premier cru burgundy from a trusted merchant turned out to be less than impressive, esp. considering the price. Maybe asking "why?" is pointless with burgundies, but there were a couple of questions and points of contention that came up during the tasting:

- how long does burgundy generally need to age? This bottle was a 2001, it seemed very closed.

- decant or not? One friend was adament that one shouldn't aerate burgundies. Not clear why, but we didn't and afterwards wondered if we should have.

I'm a burgundy virgin, and given the prices may well never learn the mysteries.

[MaxH]

... a highly recommended bottle of premier cru burgundy from a trusted merchant turned out to be less than impressive, esp. considering the price.  ...

- how long does burgundy generally need to age?  This bottle was a 2001, it seemed very closed.

- decant or not?  One friend was adament that one shouldn't aerate burgundies

Hi Linda K, I'm not going to be able to do those questions justice in two minutes -- no one can, I think -- the subject is large -- wines of Burgundy have many producers, many considerations, I've been poking into these wines for many years and still some questions don't have simple answers -- but here goes. Keeping in mind I have no info of which 2001 is involved, red or white, etc (Yoxall in his popular though dated introductory Burgundy book cited over 45000 properties averaging 2.3 hectares for instance) and am trying to answer in one shot without opportunity for Q&A.

"How long" can be anywhere from a year to maybe 20 (for hard-case red Nuits in certain years, I named some but edited them out for concision). It All Depends. 2001 reds are not as a rule an early-blooming group (2000 is the early-maturing year of recent vintages) and I expect to open most 2001 reds only after a few more years. "Decant" again depends: the highly respected Anne-Claude Leflaive at her domaine not long ago advised us to "carafe" her (highly concentrated, mineraled) whites for some hours, if tasting them young. "Preferably overnight" except for the lightest ones.

Do not (anyone!) judge the whole of Burgundy based on one particular bottle! Once you see what the region can deliver, you are apt to keep seeking it. Really, whatever advice anyone can offer, there is no substitute for being introduced to good examples of these wines served at suitable ages by a knowledgeable friend or merchant, maybe at a tasting or course (many merchants and some wine-education organizations offer these if you look around). That is not always what people want to hear but it's valuable advice. Here's some more: do a little homework. A few wine books, not many, have good overviews of Burgundy, again I'll mention Yoxall (cited earlier this thread) not for the whole book, much of it obsolete, but for a couple of exceptional succinct chapters "Some optional history" and "Some compulsory geography." (This is content that most Burgundy fans learn, one way or another.) Also it's full of quips. Cheaply available used on amazon or elsewhere, search by ISBN given upthread.

[ctgm]

I think that if you want good inexpensive Burgundy it is best to go for the less popular appellations. As mntioned Santenay is one, and other really good valued ones are Savigny-Les-Beaune, Pernand Vergellesses and a very good inexpensive producer is Jean Jaques Girard.

Another of my favourite inexpensive producers is Bertrand Ambroise, although his wines are getting more pricey all the time. He does both red and white and they are big, fruity wines (which is a style I favour). Even his basic Bourgogne Rouge is good although I would always spend the extra little bit for his Viellies Vignes. And then it is usually a question of the more you pay the better the wine.

In 2004, one of my favourite reds was that from Michel Bouzereau (of Meursault fame). His Beaune 1er Cru is definitely one to look out for. Another producer I very much liked was Daniel Rion.

If you stay away from the big names you can get well priced Burgundy.

PS What was the saying? "You haven't lived life until you have had 3 outstanding Burgundies."

[JohnL]

FYI a number of people have asked me about the 2002 vintage and I thought I'd repeat here what I know.  (I was tasting them in bottle, there, in September and have worked through some few dozen more 02's since then via the co-operative tasting groups I mentioned above.)

2002 suffered a market quirk in being hyped by the press "from the moment the grapes were picked" as a long-time Burgundy expert put it to me.  That factor drew unusual early interest which, with the big drop in dollar value for products sold initially in Euros, caused high early prices in the US.  Some of them are coming back onto market now at more moderate prices.  Of the cross-section of 2002 reds I've sampled (more C. de Nuits than C. de Beaune) there is a tendency to immediate charm that I did not see in 01 or 00.  A notion is current among some wine enthusiasts that early charm implies a poor future.  I don't expect that all of these people have very many years of early-tasting experience on which to base such a comment because if they did, they'd recall how the 1999, 1996, and 1985 vintages, which all stood out from the adjacent vintages for both solid structure (fruit-acid-tannin-mineral) and also early charm, have proven out as exceptional vintages of the last two decades.

-- Max

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I would add 1990 to your list of outstanding vintages.

[MaxH]

[in part] A notion is current among some wine enthusiasts that early charm implies a poor future.  I don't expect that all of these people have very many years of early-tasting experience on which to base such a comment because if they did, they'd recall how the 1999, 1996, and 1985 vintages, which all stood out from the adjacent vintages for both solid structure (fruit-acid-tannin-mineral) and also early charm, have proven out as exceptional vintages of the last two decades.

I would add 1990 to your list of outstanding vintages.

Hi, JohnL, yes I certainly agree on the general strength of 1990 reds, one of the best years in late 20th century, many other people think so too. I could mention other strong years too. Could also mention other years that showed early charm, but lack of depth or aging promise. The point above was years with both early charm, and also depth and potential, demonstrating that the two aren't exclusive. It has been a while since I (or anybody) tried young 1990s but those don't stand out in my memory for the same kind of early charm.

Cheers -- Max

[MaxH]

This posting is about moderately-priced "value" Burgundies, mostly red.

Reviewing this thread I saw 2roost's three recommended modern general Burgundy books, good advice. Of those three I know the Kramer and the Coates, both good.

I think that if you want good inexpensive Burgundy it is best to go for the less popular appellations.  ... Santenay ... Savigny-Les-Beaune, Pernand Vergellesses and a very good inexpensive producer is Jean Jaques Girard.  Another ... is Bertrand Ambroise, although his wines are getting more pricey all the time.  He does both red and white and they are big, fruity wines (which is a style I favour).  Even his basic Bourgogne Rouge is good although I would always spend the extra little bit for his Viellies Vignes. 

If you stay away from the big names you can get well priced Burgundy.

That's absolutely true, values are found among less fashionable names. (A basic principle in many consumer markets, yet worth citing.) All of the insightful Burgundy books stress this point too. Big brand names are so widely known and sought that today, the most famous classic wines all see routine counterfeiting. For instance one expert mentions that you can find offered online, at huge prices, on average, two to four magnums [double bottles] of "1945 Romanée-Conti" and in a good month, a jeroboam, even though only regular-sized bottles were made, no magnums or jeroboams (according to authoritative sources). And only some 600 bottles, far fewer than allegedly sold under that label over the years.

No such problem with good moderately-priced Burgs but of course you must learn about them and watch for them. And often age them a year or three. A US retailer once sang praises of "the $6 Bourgogne Rouge that develops beautifully," which was not so rare (some years ago when the B. R.s were often $6). Here is something I posted a few years ago on experiences of good Burg values at USD $10-$20. Also (am I repeating myself again?) You Have To Learn Them And You Have To Watch For Them -- you can't expect to look these things up in some publication -- it does happen, but usually such endorsements themselves kill off a good value. (I have dramatic examples on file.) Knowledge pays off better.

As a rule I've found the $10-$20 red values, when they did appear, among exceptional Bourgognes Rouges; regionals (Beaune, Nuits, Hauts CdB, etc); and the less-fashionable village wines -- Givry, Mercurey, maybe Rully, all of the Côte Challonaise; sometimes, from even more fashionable villages than those. A few years ago the 1996 Jadot B.-Rouges at $11 was in big US supermarkets and it tasted to promise -- and did deliver -- good meaty stuff in a few years, amazing. (Jadot does many good values and has expanded impressively over the years.) A good merchant showed me Jadot 2000 Chorey-les-Beaune at $12 in California, "you may find it a little hollow;" true, but what it had around its hollow part seemed creditable and true to region, certainly for US $12. Even better were the 96 Rouges, 91 Lafarge Rouges, 93 Jadot Beaune-Bressandes, 95 de Villaine Mercurey "Montots," many 94s that got sold off in 98, and the 96 Jadot Santenay (another good-value, non-hip appellation) "Clos de Malte" [drinking well now as the 99 promises to do also] or the 96 Hudelot-Noellat Rouges [sTILL developing] or the 98 Groffier Rouges or 99 Lafarge Rouges or others. ALL of these were under $20, some were $10.

[LindaK]

I'm glad I bumped this thread up, there's so much good advice here. I'm not a novice with with wines generally, but burgundies are another story. Until now, I've dallied only in the bargain varietals, such as the Mercureys which MaxH mentioned in his fine-print postscript. I know better than to judge anything based on one bottle, but this was my first venture into the mid-priced ($40) category, and I think my expectations were out of line.

other really good valued ones are Savigny-Les-Beaune, Pernand Vergellesses

That's precisely where this came from, a premier cru, Domaine Maratray-Dubreuil. Recommended, as I mentioned, by someone I trust. Hence my questions about cellaring and decanting--was it me or the wine??

Well, I have another bottle, I'll just have to try again. And keep reading and tasting.

[JohnL]

I'm glad I bumped this thread up, there's so much good advice here. I'm not a novice with with wines generally, but burgundies are another story. Until now, I've dallied only in the bargain varietals, such as the Mercureys which MaxH mentioned in his fine-print postscript.  I know better than to judge anything based on one bottle, but this was my first venture into the mid-priced ($40) category, and I think my expectations were out of line.

other really good valued ones are Savigny-Les-Beaune, Pernand Vergellesses

That's precisely where this came from, a premier cru, Domaine Maratray-Dubreuil. Recommended, as I mentioned, by someone I trust. Hence my questions about cellaring and decanting--was it me or the wine??

Well, I have another bottle, I'll just have to try again. And keep reading and tasting.

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hi

I suppose I am a bit of an iconoclast.

First--the information ie wine you note is a bit confusing--there is a Debreuil Fontaine who produces Pernand Vergelesses. There is also a Bonneau du Martray (known for their Corton red and Corton Charlemagne white. In Savigny there is a premier cru: vergelesses.

I have not heard of a Domaine Maratray-Dubreuil (though I can certainly see one existing given the two well known names).

Also you do not mention the vintage. important with Burgundy).

What disappointed you? What were your expectations?

on to the iconoclasm!

Burgundy is pretty simple.

IMOP the confusion comes in when one becomes immersed in all the places.

First--we are dealing with the pinot noir grape (and chardonnay for the whites) one would be advised to have a little understanding of these two grapes.

Second--given the difficulties in growing pinot noir--vintages are important (yes there are always exceptions to any rule re: wine).

Third--very generally speaking--grand and premier crus are capable of producing the best wines.

Note the use of "capable."--which brings us to the most important key to understanding Burgundy.

The producer.

In this regard Burgundy is the same as any wine produced anywhere--

Given a good vinyard site, and a good vintage --one would expect a good wine--one would more often than not be wrong!

My advice would be to try different producers and find one who is making the best wine no matter where it happens to come from.

Several posters here mentioned some.

I would look at negociants first as they are easier to locate in shops and each produces a range of Burgundies and importantly, most have a "house style" of winemaking.

Jadot and Drouhin are two of the largest.

I would mention Alex Gambal (he's actually from the Boston area and is producing some interesting wines at reasonable prices) as well as Bouchard and Faively also Dominique Laurent. there are many others.

You will also find good Domain producers as well.

Find which styles of wine you like.

Try to taste a villages wine and a premier cru wine from the same location, vintage and the same producer and see if you can note differences in quality.

Always try wines from good vintages--where pinot noir fruit is ripe.

Be careful of generalizations or absolutes about Burgundy.

Approach the locations carefully and in perspective.--the truth is too much is made of where the vinyard is located-- here's an example--you will hear or read about "textbook clos Vougeot or textbook Chambertin"--I would simply ask what textbook? who wrote it? and when was it published?

One would be hard pressed to say what exactly Clos Vougeot should taste like given the myriad producers and all the different styles.

This is not to say there are not discernible differences between say Clos Vougeot and, say,Chambertin, only that these differences are not as easy to discern or define as some would have you believe. One would (as another poster notes) find some differences between villages wines and premier crus for example.

The fact is Burgundy is no different than wine produced anywhere else in the world. The most important entity for the consumer should always be who made the wine.

also the vintage--more important with pinot noir than other grape varietals given the fruit's fickle nature and susceptibility to the vagaries of mother nature.

The cru system is reliable only in that the French have put a lot of time and effort into it and it offers some indication into the potential of a vinyard location. It is purely hypothetical but should not be ignored.

I always try to remember that Burgundy really isn't the big mystery that many are convinced it is. It can be fascinating. it is pinot noir (not a bad idea to explore the new world either).

It (Burgundy) is expensive mainly because so little is produced and of that relatively small quantity, precious few producers are making truly great wine.

When Burgundy is at its very best it can be an incredible experience--but really there are few truly "great" wines produced from any grape anywhere and they are usually quite expensive.

--at some point try to taste a grand cru or premier cru wine from a good vintage from the DRC, or Leroy or Rousseau or JF Mugnier, Roumier, Comte Georges de Vogue, Dugat Py or Angerville. (there are a number of others).

most importantly--it is--in the end--wine!

Cheers!!!!!

Edited April 12, 2006 by JohnL (log)

[Margaret Pilgrim]

We will be heading for the Vigneron Independent show in Paris at the end of the month. Under the flag of searching out small producers, who would you seek out from this list of vignerons who will be sampling and selling their wines? Do you give much weight to award winners or are medals too fickle a measure?

[markk]

We will be heading for the Vigneron Independent show in Paris at the end of the month.  Under the flag of searching out small producers, who would you seek out from this list of vignerons who will be sampling and selling their wines? 

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There really aren't any Burgundy producers there (pinot noir), but then again, that land and just about every vine on it, has been spoken for for many years.

The Alsace list looked really interesting - that's a great region of wines to explore.

I confess that I didn't read this entire thread, but (stranger things have been suggestd) if you're flying through Newark and are thinking of stopping off in NJ, the restaurant Park and Orchard in Rutherford NJ has probably the greatest cellar of Burgundies in the US, and is justly known and celebrated for it; and, they practically give them away. You can even download the 146 page wine list from their site. Buddy, the partner who collects the wine, is a passionate Burgundy lover, and visits there often to buy wines - he knows every vine, and every producer, and if he's in the restaurant, you'll drink great. As I said, stranger things have been suggested (and done) in the name of wine loving. (There are 33 pages of Burgundies.)

Park and Orchard Restaurant