Need advice on French Burgundy

[Margaret Pilgrim]

There really aren't any Burgundy producers there...←

There aren't? Now I really am confused.

[markk]

There really aren't any Burgundy producers there...←

There aren't? Now I really am confused.

←

Sorry about that, I think; when I looked at first and told it to list all the producers, I only looked at the first ten pages of them, in which there weren't. I'll look through the rest but I assume there are, so, sorry again.

[markk]

There really aren't any Burgundy producers there...←

There aren't? Now I really am confused.

←

And I stand by this post. I went through all 50 pages of producers who will be there (999 of them) and the only ones from Burgundy are from the Beaujolais region.

[wkl]

huh? there's tons of producers from burgundy.

i think you are confusing the beaujolais/bourgogne description when you search.

for example, click on cote de nuits, then click on a producer who comes up, the address will be in cote du nuits. certainly a vigneron de bourgogne with that address.

[markk]

huh? there's tons of producers from burgundy.

i think you are confusing the beaujolais/bourgogne description when you search.

for example, click on cote de nuits, then click on a producer who comes up, the address will be in cote du nuits. certainly a vigneron de bourgogne with that address.

←

Aaaah.

So they mean Burgundy & Beaujolais, not Beaujolais as a subset. I was interpreting it wrong.

In that case, to answer the original question, I would try to visit a lot of them and judge for myself! There are indeed small producers from the region who make delicious wines - but I think you have to stumble on them in just such a manner. You could have some very pleasant surprise discoveries this way. And even people from appelations in places you wouldn't associate with great reds (Beaune, for example) are now making some concentrated, delicious wines.

Happy exploring! Hope you'll report back and take photos if it's allowed.

[Margaret Pilgrim]

I would try to visit a lot of them and judge for myself!.... Happy exploring!....

So that's it? The total guidance from this forum? Interesting.

[wkl]

i tried to go through that site to give you some specifics, but i can't figure out how to select more than one area at a time. going through the burgundy producers ( i assume that's what your looking for?) one area at a time is tedious.

i recoginzed some names. matrot in blagny, domaine cornu....but most of these producers are probably small and with limitted international distribution. that's why there are at this show.

anyway, if you can tell me how to filter that list of producers down to just the burgundy producers, i could take another look for you. i drink alot of burgundy, so i am sure i can make some rec's for you.

[Margaret Pilgrim]

wkl, I have just found how to screen the list. Here is the list for burgundy/beaujolais. This a very large show and AOCs are not arranged together. In fact, the floor arrangement appears to be completely random. Last year, it fill two floors of one of the enormous Porte de Versailles expo buildings. Anyone who will be in Paris during this time should definitely try to go.

Many thanks for any pointers.

Edited November 12, 2006 by Margaret Pilgrim (log)

[markk]

Unfortunately, you can't click on multiple appellations from the master list, you have to chose them one by one to see detail. But here are the Burgundy selections from the list (done on a quick pass), so if you click on them, or the ones that interest you, you can print out the details and compile a master list.

ALOXE CORTON

ALOXE CORTON PREMIER CRU

AUXEY-DURESSES

AUXEY-DURESSES PREMIER CRU

BATARD-MONTRACHET

BEAUNE

BEAUNE PREMIER CRU

BOURGOGNE

BOURGOGNE ALIGOTE

BOURGOGNE CHITRY

BOURGOGNE COTE CHALONNAISE

BOURGOGNE COTES D'AUXERRE

BOURGOGNE COTES DU COUCHOIS

BOURGOGNE COULANGES LA VINEUSE

BOURGOGNE GRAND ORDINAIRE

BOURGOGNE HAUTES COTES DE BEAUNE

BOURGOGNE HAUTES COTES DE NUITS

BOURGOGNE PASSETOUTGRAINS

BOURGOGNE ROSE

CHAMBERTIN GRAND CRU

CHAMBOLLE-MUSIGNY

CHAMBOLLE-MUSIGNY PREMIER CRU

CHARMES-CHAMBERTIN

CHARMES-CHAMBERTIN GRAND CRU

CHASSAGNE-MONTRACHET

CHASSAGNE-MONTRACHET PREMIER CRU

CLOS DE LA ROCHE

CLOS DE VOUGEOT

CORTON

CORTON CHARLEMAGNE

CORTON CHARLEMAGNE GRAND CRU

CORTON GRAND CRU

COTE DE BROUILLY

COTE DE NUITS-VILLAGES

ECHEZEAUX

ECHEZEAUX GRAND CRU

GEVREY-CHAMBERTIN

GEVREY-CHAMBERTIN PREMIER CRU

NUITS-SAINT-GEORGES

NUITS-SAINT-GEORGES PREMIER CRU

POMMARD

POMMARD PREMIER CRU

PULIGNY MONTRACHET

PULIGNY MONTRACHET PREMIER CRU

RICHEBOURG

SAINT-AUBIN

SAINT-AUBIN PREMIER CRU

SANTENAY

SANTENAY PREMIER CRU

SAVIGNY-LES-BEAUNE

SAVIGNY-LES-BEAUNE PREMIER CRU

VOLNAY

VOLNAY PREMIER CRU

VOSNE ROMANEE

VOSNE ROMANEE PREMIER CRU

Most of them appear to be small producers. This being Burgundy, it's unlikely that many people will have heard of them, and that's undoubtedly why they're at this exposition. Instead of trying to pre-guess how they'll be, why don't you print out the booth numbers for the regions that interest you, mark them on a floor plan, and taste them and decide for yourself - isn't that the purpose of the show?

[artisanbaker]

margaret: i looked briefly and this is one producer i wouldn't miss

arnoux

au plasir

robert

[Margaret Pilgrim]

- isn't that the purpose of the show?

←

Exactly. The booths are well signed with area and producer names. The only problem is SIZE. It does matter. I think there are 55 production areas on your list. There are probably an average of 6 to 8 producers from each. Each will be pouring from 4 to 8 wines. Even for pros, it is an impossible dream.

Thanks, artisan. It will top our list.

[markk]

I think there are 55 production areas on your list.  There are probably an average of 6 to 8 producers from each. 

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Well, in that we're talking about 'production areas' about the size of a high-school gym, it's not surprising that many of the producers are multiple-listings for several appelations around them, so it'll probably turn out to be a much smaller world after all. You might want to do a cross-check of exhibitors in the Cote de Nuits and Cote de Beaune and see how it narrows down.

And, what a way to go!......

[Margaret Pilgrim]

And, what a way to go!......

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Everything you have said is true, especially this last benediction. This will probably be our fourth or fifth show, and we have found it easier to limit our major thrust to one area. Of course, you get seduced along the way and stray off course more often than not.

We frequently find that the little wines we order in France do indeed carry the VI trademark, but we usually order wines from the east, south and southwest. I was hoping that a few VI Burgundys had made their way into your hearts. Oh well, I guess we'll just have to taste our way through them....

Again, many thanks.

[froggio]

Le Musigny also has another notable exception: De Vogue has planted a small parcel of Chardonnay and consequently is the only Grand Cru with the exception of Corton that can be both white and red.

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Actually, Domaine de La Vougeraie has a Clos Blanc monopole in Clos Vougeot grand cru.

http://www.en.domainedelavougeraie.com/ind...product&id=3468

[froggio]

robt parker on charlie rose the other nite commented on excellent bordeaux & burgundys & emphasized how long they should be aged before even considering drinking.

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How ironic that RP recommends to age fine wines when he has been part and parcel in the global rush to drink wines as soon as bottled. I remember tasting wines at a well-known Château in CDP and listening to the winemaker complain about RP coming in "an hour to taste from different oak barrels before blending what would ultimately be a single wine after bottling".

[froggio]

No, Burgundy is not an easy wine region to understand. They are a bit suspicious, closed, rough. A bit like a farmer from a 19th century Châteaubriand novel. I know, I was born there :-)

The main problem for the consumer is the constant division of landholdings. Unlike Bordeaux where estates are incorporated and thus protected from division (after the proprietor has died, children receive shares and the estate survives as a whole entity), Burgundian wineyards are divided between surviving children after death. Take the Gros family as an example: Louis Gros died in 1951 and his estate was divided between his 4 children, Gustave and Colette (Dom. Gros F & S), Jean Gros (Dom. J. Gros), François Gros (Dom. F. Gros). Domaine Jean Gros was later split between Jean and Jeanine's children: Bernard (Dom. Gros F & S), Michel (Dom. J. Gros & Dom. M. Gros), Anne-Françoise (Dom. A-F Gros). Domaine François Gros went to Anne Gros, his daughter, under the new name of Dom. Anne et François Gros and changed in 1995 to Domaine Anne Gros.

Still with me?

The landscape is continuouslly changing with old estates disappearing and new ones being born every year, owners buying and selling vineyards. Add fermage to this...

Compare this to Bordeaux, a rock of stability, where even small Côtes de Blaye Châteaux have been in existence for centuries without any major changes.

Anyway, I thought I'd give my 2 cts on some of the very good winemakers/vineyards of Burgundy.

Rémy Jobard, François Jobard, Henri Germain, Michel Bouzereau, Pierre Morey, Patrick Javillier, Michel Niellon, Marc Morey, J-M Pillot in white wines.

Sylvie Esmonin, René Bouvier, Rossignol-Trapet, Dupont-Tisserandot, Alain Burguet, Gilles Burguet (his bro), Humbert Frères, Drouhin-Laroze, Comte Liger-Belair, Bruno Clavelier, J-P & M Guyon, Ghislaine Barthod, Amiot-Servelle, Hervé Sigaut, Nicolas Rossignol, Joseph Voillot, Henri Boillot, Arlaud, Bertagna, Pierre Bourrée, Ch. Corton-André (owned by Nouvelle-Calédonie nickel mine conglomerate), Christian Clerget, Hudelot-Noellat, Lignier-Michelot, Vougeraie (owned by conglomerate Boisset)

Notice there is no Coche-Dury or Comte de Vogüe to keep prices a bit down.

I am not too fond of modern style.

Some specific bottles, some of which should be easy to find:

Amiot Pierre 2004 Morey Millande

Arlaud 2003/04 Morey Ruchots and/orChéseaux

Berthaut 2003 Fixin Arvelets

Bouchard Père Fils 2004 Nuits Villages

Bourrée Pierre 2002/03 Gevrey Clos Justice

Clerget Chris 2004 Vougeot Pts Vougeots

Faiveley 2003 Pommard Vaumuriens

Forey 2004 Vosne Gaudichots

Vigot Fabrice 2004 Nuits VV

Clair Bruno 2004 Marsannay Chard.

Chenevieres 2004 Chablis Fourchaume

Colin Marc 2004 St-Aubin Châtenière

Valanges Dom. 2003 St-Véran Cv Hors Classe

I hope this will help a bit. Cheers.

[MaxH]

Take the Gros family as an example ...

Thanks froggio for this rather encyclopedic posting. The Gros family is an extreme example to use, both in the number of related different Gros firms now, and in quality of results.

As you seem to be interested in this stuff, a word to the wise is to be careful with quips re RP. He has strengths and weaknesses like most wine critics, but unlike most of them he also has ardent followers quick to accuse any critique of ulterior motives, envy, being in British pay, etc. &c.

For entertainment value I'll quote a late scholar of ideologies and how they work. That's a big subject, not related to wine or critics, but it makes a larger point about followers.

Ideologies, whether Positivist, or Marxist, or National Socialist, indulge in constructions that are intellectually not tenable. That raises the question of why [scholars] who otherwise are not quite stupid, and who have the secondary virtues of being honest in their daily affairs, indulge in intellectual dishonesty as soon as they touch [these subjects]. ... The various ideologies after all have been [looked at closely], and anybody who is willing to read the literature knows that they are not tenable, and why. ... The overt phenomenon of intellectual dishonesty then raises the question of why a man will indulge in it.

-- E. Voegelin, after recalling his flight from the Geheimes Staatspolizei in 1938.

[JohnL]

robt parker on charlie rose the other nite commented on excellent bordeaux & burgundys & emphasized how long they should be aged before even considering drinking.

←

How ironic that RP recommends to age fine wines when he has been part and parcel in the global rush to drink wines as soon as bottled. I remember tasting wines at a well-known Château in CDP and listening to the winemaker complain about RP coming in "an hour to taste from different oak barrels before blending what would ultimately be a single wine after bottling".

←

well you can't say MaxH didn't warn you!

I am not defending Robert Parker. He is pretty clear in his opinions. One can agree or disagree.

I simply wish that folks would actually read those opinions and have some grasp of them before buying into some conventional wisdom.

So here someone mentions a comment Parker makes on Charlie Rose and then someone jumps in to elaborate on the comments. Parker has always been clear on what he considers to be key factors in determining what makes a wine great (in his opinion of course). Aging ability is one.

Perhaps in your rush to make a political statement about Parker you missed the word "excellent" in jgould's paraphrasing. You even note that RP recommends "to age fine wines"--note the use of "fine." so like every critic, Parker is differentiating between age worthy wines and those that are not.

In fact, Parker has celebrated (and rated highly) wines that cover a wide variety of styles-- age worthy or for early drinking--he has high praise for wine makers like D'Angerville and Comte de Vogue the DRC and Leroy so where is it he is part of some global "rush" to make wines that are drinkable as soon as they are in bottle.(perhaps you really mean conspiracy not rush?).

So where exactly is the irony?

I also do not get your point about the wine maker's comments.

Many critics taste barrel samples (even prior to final blending) so why is Parker noteworthy?

Here's what I believe.

There are too much polemics in wine today. Too many people have created a wine war: traditionalist vs modernist in which there is a zero sum game a foot.

The belief is that one can not possibly enjoy both styles of wine--it must be one or the other!

Many people do, in fact, prefer one style over the other.

However, many people also enjoy both styles.

As is often the case, the traditionalists see modernists as a threat to their way of life!

because critics like Parker have seen benefits in both styles--the traditionalists can not accept anything less than orthodoxy--he has become a whipping boy.

Again, ignoring all the raves and high scores for traditional style wines they focus on the fact that he also likes modern style wines.

To bring this back to the topic at hand.

In tasting Burgundy, one will find what one finds throughout most of the wine world. There are different styles of wines made.

From traditional to modern and everything in between. Age worthy and early drinking.

One will also find that generalizations with wine usually don't work. Interestingly, this thread has focused more on producers than on locations.

The truth is, Burgundy is all about pinot noir and chardonnay (for the most part). it is simply a matter of finding those producers who make the style of wines you like. If you like the more traditional (I hate these inaccurate labels) style then there are plenty of wines from which to chose. If you like modern style wines--lot's of those too. (and everything in between).

Not to ignore place, one can begin to look for differences in the various wines each producer makes.

Most people (thank goodness) really do not care much about the politics and perceived or real threats to whatever. They simply want to enjoy the wine!

Critics are interesting to read and can be helpful in finding one's way. Wine makers are entertaining--wanna really get confused? Put a bunch of wine makers in a room!

It always ends up with you and a glass of wine and whether or not you enjoy drinking it.

[JohnL]

Take the Gros family as an example ...

Thanks froggio for this rather encyclopedic posting. The Gros family is an extreme example to use, both in the number of related different Gros firms now, and in quality of results.

As you seem to be interested in this stuff, a word to the wise is to be careful with quips re RP. He has strengths and weaknesses like most wine critics, but unlike most of them he also has ardent followers quick to accuse any critique of ulterior motives, envy, being in British pay, etc. &c.

For entertainment value I'll quote a late scholar of ideologies and how they work. That's a big subject, not related to wine or critics, but it makes a larger point about followers.

Ideologies, whether Positivist, or Marxist, or National Socialist, indulge in constructions that are intellectually not tenable. That raises the question of why [scholars] who otherwise are not quite stupid, and who have the secondary virtues of being honest in their daily affairs, indulge in intellectual dishonesty as soon as they touch [these subjects]. ... The various ideologies after all have been [looked at closely], and anybody who is willing to read the literature knows that they are not tenable, and why. ... The overt phenomenon of intellectual dishonesty then raises the question of why a man will indulge in it.

-- E. Voegelin, after recalling his flight from the Geheimes Staatspolizei in 1938.

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Max!

I took care of the Parker thing above!

And Froggio--I also enjoyed the list. A question though. If there really truly is a "global movement..."

then how is it you are able to list so many wine makers that are not "modern?"

One would have thought everyone would be makin those early drinking fruit bombs!!!

I thought Burgundy was goin to hell in a handbag.

Maybe Parker isn't so influential after all!

But really, I happen to like a lot of the producers you listed. I am especially glad to see Bouree on the list.

The wines have always been hard to find here in NYC and I have always liked them a lot. You are also right on with your comparison of Bordeaux.

As for aging Burgundy--

I have always believed that most age worthy Burgundies are best at under fifteen years age. we are talking pinot noir-- I would say that the vintage is a very important factor as is personal preference and taste.

[froggio]

I respect RP's many talents.

My problem with him is that he is wielding enormous power and can indirectly influence winemaking decisions across the globe. Fool is the one who thinks so much influence in one person is for the good of wine.

Going back to Burgundy, I'd say that PN with aging potential can, from my experience, easily be kept for 10 years in a cellar and here we are almost invariably talking about 1er crus and grands crus and in good vintages and hands although I remember visiting Gilles Burguet in 2002, "little" brother of Alain in Gevrey, and tasing a Gevrey Villages 1990 and 1980 and those two wines were exactly what I expected a red Burgundy to be like: elegant, aerial with a strong aromatic signature, complex and long.

A few specific wines that are on the cheaper side:

Arlaud Père et Fils Gevrey Villages 2002

Ghislaine Barthod Marsannay Champs Salomon 2003

Philippe Charlopin Fixin Villages 2003

Chauvenet-Chopin Nuits Chaignots 2003

Rod. Demougeot Savigny Peuillets or Bourgeots 2003

Fougeray de Beauclair Marsannay St-Jacques 2003

Lignier-Michelot Gevrey Villages 2004

Gérard Seguin Gevrey Craipillot 2001

Barraud St-Véran Pommard (name of vineyard) 2003 white

David Duband Hts Cts Nts 2003

Hautes-Cornieres Santenay Beaurepaire 2003

Just promoting some of the little guys :-) for a change.

[froggio]

And Froggio--I also enjoyed the list. A question though. If there really truly is a "global movement..."

then how is it you are able to list so many wine makers that are not "modern?"

One would have thought everyone would be makin those early drinking fruit bombs!!!

←

John,

I am not sure what you mean by "global movement".

If there is a global trend in winemaking, it is not in spite of critics like RP but, in part, because of them. RP has reached such a cult status that is opinions have the weight of a Vatican edict. Who says that his taste buds are the only yardstick to go by?

Does global trend mean that all winemakers are subscribing to it? Certainly not, and Burgundy is, as someone mentioned earlier, "the last refuge". I mean by that that winemakers in Burgundy are very, very traditional and i see nothing wrong with that. When I drink a Chambolle, I want a Chambolle, not something that could be mistaken for a Barossa fruit bomb.

[JohnL]

I respect RP's many talents.

My problem with him is that he is wielding enormous power and can indirectly influence winemaking decisions across the globe. Fool is the one who thinks so much influence in one person is for the good of wine.

Going back to Burgundy, I'd say that PN with aging potential can, from my experience, easily be kept for 10 years in a cellar and here we are almost invariably talking about 1er crus and grands crus and in good vintages and hands although I remember visiting Gilles Burguet in 2002, "little" brother of Alain in Gevrey, and tasing a Gevrey Villages 1990 and 1980 and those two wines were exactly what I expected a red Burgundy to be like: elegant, aerial with a strong aromatic signature, complex and long.

A few specific wines that are on the cheaper side:

Arlaud Père et Fils Gevrey Villages 2002

Ghislaine Barthod Marsannay Champs Salomon 2003

Philippe Charlopin Fixin Villages 2003

Chauvenet-Chopin Nuits Chaignots 2003

Rod. Demougeot Savigny Peuillets or Bourgeots 2003

Fougeray de Beauclair Marsannay St-Jacques 2003

Lignier-Michelot Gevrey Villages 2004

Gérard Seguin Gevrey Craipillot 2001

Barraud St-Véran Pommard (name of vineyard) 2003 white

David Duband Hts Cts Nts 2003

Hautes-Cornieres Santenay Beaurepaire 2003

Just promoting some of the little guys :-) for a change.

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Your list is pretty good.

I especially like Ghislaine B's efforts.

I would add Mugnier and Magnien.

As for Parker your list actually proves my point.

If Parker was so darn influential these wines would be made in one monolithic style ("Parkerized" as they say).

Or no one would be buying these wines because he doesn't tell em to.

You simply can't have it both ways. (notably parker has championed many of these growers/makers over the years.)

As for influence--I would say that many of the importers have had way more influence as well as any of the wine making gurus--see Guy Accad et al--that pass through over the years.

Seems to me that Burgundy offers a fairly wide range of styles based upon the wine maker's criteria.

There are so many differing opinions on wine making and wine styles held by these folks that it is hard to see how any individual could have much sway in how their wines are made or taste.

I do find it interesting that there has been little mention of terroir in this thread. Perhaps it is finally being understood in better perspective.

As a generalization--I have found a relatively large percentage of good wines from Volnay and Santenay as well as Beaune--especially the wines of Albert Morot --I buy the Theurons regularly--a wine that does need ten years in bottle!

[ckruse]

Burgundy can be daunting, disappointing, among other things but the biggest obstacle is time. Most of the great Burgundies are great after they have been down awhile. So you can go buy a top end bottle open it up right away and be very disappointed where a wait of as little a 5years and more like 10 can make all the difference. So if you really want to do it right meet somebody who has some dusty crusty bottles they would like to share. Of course I could be wrong.