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Pots & Pans, Optimal Shape?


hwilson41
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Very interesting pan! I can't say that I personally would have great use for it, due to my style of cooking. But it would certainly be my #1 recommendation as a high end wok for those who don't have a dedicated specialty wok burner. As it so happens, this very issue is something we've been discussing over in the Q&A thread to my eGCI cookware class (go to the last page).

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<p><font size="2" face="Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular">Sam and others, please take a look at these images of a new pan that we are thinking about bringing to the US that seems appropriate for this thread.  It is essentially a wok with a 5.5" flat area on the bottom.  The diameter at the top is 11" and the hieght is 4".  It will include a stainless steel grate for steaming and smoking(?).</font></p>

  <p><font size="2" face="Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular">I would appreciate any feedback and will likely offer a special price on a pre-order basis for members here, if interested.  I haven't established what the price will be yet though...<br>

    I<a href="http://copperpans.com/Media/NewPan4.jpg">mage 1</a><br>

    <a href="http://copperpans.com/Media/NewPan3.jpg">Image 2</a></font></p>

Is the pan ss lined copper? How thick is the copper?

Smoking?

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I would be interested if it is SS lined. The one I have (de Buyer) is less than 2 1/2 inches deep and really not adequate for the type of stir-frying I do. I like the idea of the internal grid.

Edited by andiesenji (log)

"There are, it has been said, two types of people in the world. There are those who say: this glass is half full. And then there are those who say: this glass is half empty. The world belongs, however, to those who can look at the glass and say: What's up with this glass? Excuse me? Excuse me? This is my glass? I don't think so. My glass was full! And it was a bigger glass!" Terry Pratchett

 

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I don't want to put words in Michael's mouth here, but I am almost 100% certain it will be 2.5 mm thick and stainless lined.

Actually, it is 2.0mm, but is very substantial nevertheless. And, of course it is stainless lined--we only make stainless lined cookware. The price without a lid is going to be around $299 or 239 with a $500 order. I've got one here that I have yet to cook with, but I really like the design. As for the smoking part, sorta what you'd do with a wok, like tea smoked duck or something

My actual cost on this piece is $133 which is a litte high I think.. :shock:

Edited by mharpo (log)

Michael Harp

CopperPans.com

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I don't want to put words in Michael's mouth here, but I am almost 100% certain it will be 2.5 mm thick and stainless lined.

Actually, it is 2.0mm, but is very substantial nevertheless. And, of course it is stainless lined--we only make stainless lined cookware.

I wondered whether it would be technically even possible to make that shape in 2.5 mm.

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If Mauviel is manufacturing Bourgeat's copper smallwares, it's doubly amazing to me that the Bourgeat shapes are so much better. How can we confirm that Bourgeat doesn't manufacture copper, though? Because when you surf around the Bourgeat site, the language and photographs seem to indicate that copper utensils are fabricated in that factory -- not the sheet metal, but the bending, polishing, affixing of handles, etc. Or not. I'd love to have a definitive answer.

Also, in terms of what I've seen in high-end professional kitchens here in New York and in a few other places in the US -- and this is just anecdotal rather than statistical because it's not something I recorded on a chart or approached methodically -- I've not noticed any kitchens using Mauviel copper at all, whereas I see Bourgeat copper all the time (also haven't seen any Falk). I'm sure there are kitchens that use Mauviel and Falk, but I get a sense of Bourgeat being overwhelmingly preferred at the high end.

Steven A. Shaw aka "Fat Guy"
Co-founder, Society for Culinary Arts & Letters, sshaw@egstaff.org
Proud signatory to the eG Ethics code
Director, New Media Studies, International Culinary Center (take my food-blogging course)

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I too would really really like to know.  I've emailed Bourgeat, en français, but as I am not part of the industry,  no answer.  There has to be a way of finding out...

I've already answered it for you guys. I think Mr. Van Achter knows what he is talking about.... :biggrin:

Michael Harp

CopperPans.com

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<p><font size="2" face="Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular">Sam and others, please take a look at these images of a new pan that we are thinking about bringing to the US that seems appropriate for this thread.  It is essentially a wok with a 5.5" flat area on the bottom.  The diameter at the top is 11" and the hieght is 4".  It will include a stainless steel grate for steaming and smoking(?).</font></p>

  <p><font size="2" face="Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular">I would appreciate any feedback and will likely offer a special price on a pre-order basis for members here, if interested.  I haven't established what the price will be yet though...<br>

    I<a href="http://copperpans.com/Media/NewPan4.jpg">mage 1</a><br>

    <a href="http://copperpans.com/Media/NewPan3.jpg">Image 2</a></font></p>

In comparing this pan to the current object of my desire, I can see that it is a bit deeper by 0.4" but what I can't tell is if there is less flat surface in the new pan. For my purposes, that would be a good thing. Please clarify.

Your proposed price range, assuming that includes the lid and insert, makes me sit up and take notice. I am going to have to go back to Sam's course and see if we have discussed the performance difference between 2.0 and 2.5 mm.

Linda LaRose aka "fifi"

"Having spent most of my life searching for truth in the excitement of science, I am now in search of the perfectly seared foie gras without any sweet glop." Linda LaRose

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If Mauviel is manufacturing Bourgeat's copper smallwares, it's doubly amazing to me that the Bourgeat shapes are so much better.

I think Mauviel is just making a much more traditional shape. I'm also not sure one can say that Bourgeat's shapes are "so much better." Let's have a look. . .

Here is a Bourgeat saucepan and here is the equivalent saucepan from Mauviel. What are the differences? Well, Bourgeat has a flared lip and the anchor point for the handle seems to be lower. Here is the equivalent pan from Falk Culinair, which splits the difference having a flared lip like Bourgeat but the higher anchor point like Mauviel. I'm not sure I could definitively say that one design is better than the other.

Here we have eleven inch saute pans from Falk, Mauviel and Bourgeat. All seem to have a roughly equivalent placement and angle of the handle. Falk and Bourgeat have a rolled lip. Other than that, the main difference is in the geometry of the pan. Falk has sides that are 25% as tall as the diameter of the pan, Mauviel has sides that are 27% as tall as the diameter of the pan, and Bourgeat has sides that are 29% as tall as the diameter of the pan. Which one is best? How much of an advantage is a rolled lip on a saute pan? Is it an advantage? How about the height of the sides? Personally I prefer 25%, which doesn't help the case for Bourgeat.

None of the differences observed above seem particularly significant to me. There do seem to be significant differences when we look at an eleven inch frypan from Bourgeat, Falk and Mauviel. The overall pan shapes seems the same, with the exeption of the usual flared lip differences, as do the anchor points of the handles. The handle designs, however, are markedly different. Mauviel's handle has only a slight elevation (perhaps easier to see in this lower quality picture from Bridge Kitchenware). Falk's handle has a double angle -- it goes up at a steep angle and then flattens out. Bourgeat's handle goes up at a fairly steep angle and keeps on going up. Which one is better? Depends on what you want. Personally, I have a Mauviel frypan. It fits under the broiler better than the other two, and that's important to me in picking a frypan. For our purposes, it is also worthy of note that the Falk frypan is $185, the Mauviel frypan is $200 and the Bourgeat pan is $227. I might like the Mauviel handle to the tune of fifteen bucks more than Falk, but I sure don't like the Bourgeat handle to the tune of 42 bucks more than Falk.

The only place I can see Bourgeat coming out as "so much better" is in the looks department for those who are inclined towards a mirror finish.

How can we confirm that Bourgeat doesn't manufacture copper, though? Because when you surf around the Bourgeat site, the language and photographs seem to indicate that copper utensils are fabricated in that factory -- not the sheet metal, but the bending, polishing, affixing of handles, etc. Or not. I'd love to have a definitive answer.

This strikes me as a pretty definitive answer, given the source:

It is true that Bourgeat copper is now made by Mauviel, as someone suggested earler.  Falk was approached by Bourgeat around 4 years ago to make it, but declined.
Also, in terms of what I've seen in high-end professional kitchens here in New York and in a few other places in the US -- and this is just anecdotal rather than statistical because it's not something I recorded on a chart or approached methodically -- I've not noticed any kitchens using Mauviel copper at all, whereas I see Bourgeat copper all the time (also haven't seen any Falk). I'm sure there are kitchens that use Mauviel and Falk, but I get a sense of Bourgeat being overwhelmingly preferred at the high end.

In the US, I'd guess you're probably correct (although it isn't always obvious when a piece is Mauviel -- my frypan doesn't say "Mauviel" on it anywhere). Bourgeat is the most promoted copper line in the US, and they have been very aggressive in the market. I think if you went into European kitchens, though, you'd see a lot more Mauviel.

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Actually, it is 2.0mm, but is very substantial nevertheless.  And, of course it is stainless lined--we only make stainless lined cookware.  The price without a lid is going to be around $299 or 239 with a $500 order.  I've got one here that I have yet to cook with, but I really like the design.  As for the smoking part, sorta what you'd do with a wok, like tea smoked duck or something

My actual cost on this piece is $133 which is a litte high I think.. :shock:

and with the lid?

"There are, it has been said, two types of people in the world. There are those who say: this glass is half full. And then there are those who say: this glass is half empty. The world belongs, however, to those who can look at the glass and say: What's up with this glass? Excuse me? Excuse me? This is my glass? I don't think so. My glass was full! And it was a bigger glass!" Terry Pratchett

 

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In comparing this pan to the current object of my desire, I can see that it is a bit deeper by 0.4" but what I can't tell is if there is less flat surface in the new pan. For my purposes, that would be a good thing. Please clarify.

Didn't I say the the flat surface was 5.5"'s? :blink:

How can we confirm that Bourgeat doesn't manufacture copper, though? Because when you surf around the Bourgeat site, the language and photographs seem to indicate that copper utensils are fabricated in that factory -- not the sheet metal, but the bending, polishing, affixing of handles, etc. Or not. I'd love to have a definitive answer.

The information on Bourgeat's site is old. Do you think they want anyone to know that Mauviel is making it?

Actually, it is 2.0mm, but is very substantial nevertheless.  And, of course it is stainless lined--we only make stainless lined cookware.  The price without a lid is going to be around $299 or 239 with a $500 order.

and with the lid?

Our 11" lid is $75 before discounts. Discounts make a big difference and you can see them here http://store.falkculinair.com/builyourowns.html

Michael Harp

CopperPans.com

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<p><font size="2" face="Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular">Sam and others, please take a look at these images of a new pan that we are thinking about bringing to the US that seems appropriate for this thread.  It is essentially a wok with a 5.5" flat area on the bottom.  The diameter at the top is 11" and the hieght is 4".  It will include a stainless steel grate for steaming and smoking(?).</font></p>

  <p><font size="2" face="Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular">I would appreciate any feedback and will likely offer a special price on a pre-order basis for members here, if interested.  I haven't established what the price will be yet though...<br>

    I<a href="http://copperpans.com/Media/NewPan4.jpg">mage 1</a><br>

    <a href="http://copperpans.com/Media/NewPan3.jpg">Image 2</a></font></p>

In comparing this pan to the current object of my desire, I can see that it is a bit deeper by 0.4" but what I can't tell is if there is less flat surface in the new pan. For my purposes, that would be a good thing. Please clarify.

Yes, there is less flat surface in the new pan. The eleven inch "sauciere" (aka curved sauteuse evasee) has a 9.5 inch flat surface (70.9 square inches), whereas the new pan is described as having a 5.5 inch flat surface (23.8 square inches). So the new pan has right around one third the flat surface area compared to the sauciere.

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In comparing this pan to the current object of my desire, I can see that it is a bit deeper by 0.4" but what I can't tell is if there is less flat surface in the new pan. For my purposes, that would be a good thing. Please clarify.

Didn't I say the the flat surface was 5.5"'s? :blink:

I think it's unclear to some people what the flat surface is on the sauciere (see my post above).

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If Mauviel is manufacturing Bourgeat's copper smallwares, it's doubly amazing to me that the Bourgeat shapes are so much better. How can we confirm that Bourgeat doesn't manufacture copper, though? Because when you surf around the Bourgeat site, the language and photographs seem to indicate that copper utensils are fabricated in that factory -- not the sheet metal, but the bending, polishing, affixing of handles, etc. Or not. I'd love to have a definitive answer.

Also, in terms of what I've seen in high-end professional kitchens here in New York and in a few other places in the US -- and this is just anecdotal rather than statistical because it's not something I recorded on a chart or approached methodically -- I've not noticed any kitchens using Mauviel copper at all, whereas I see Bourgeat copper all the time (also haven't seen any Falk). I'm sure there are kitchens that use Mauviel and Falk, but I get a sense of Bourgeat being overwhelmingly preferred at the high end.

Last year when I spoke to one of the buyers for Sur La Table who had been in France earlier in the spring, she said that Bourgeat is still making professional copper cookware but is not marketing it for general sales, whatever that means. Perhaps they are selling only to chefs, hotels, etc. She noted that she had seen brand new Bourgeat pots in the kitchen at one of the hotels in which she stayed, which was the reason she contacted the company. Sur La Table used to carry an extensive line of Bourgeat where I have purchased many of the pieces I have had for years.

"There are, it has been said, two types of people in the world. There are those who say: this glass is half full. And then there are those who say: this glass is half empty. The world belongs, however, to those who can look at the glass and say: What's up with this glass? Excuse me? Excuse me? This is my glass? I don't think so. My glass was full! And it was a bigger glass!" Terry Pratchett

 

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Our 11" lid is $75 before discounts.  Discounts make a big difference and you can see them here http://store.falkculinair.com/builyourowns.html

Not that I want to take money out of Michael's pocket :wink:, but I would like to point out that there is no reason you have to have a stainless/copper bimetal cover. In fact, I would advise against it. It's a pain to keep clean, and it doesn't really offer any performance benefits. Instead of spending $75 on a stainless/copper bimetal cover, you could, for example, spend $22 on this stainless cover from Paderno Grant Gourmet, or an eleven inch stainless cover from someone else (I recommend Paderno Grand Gourmet because I happen to own several Paderno pieces and noticed that their covers fit Falk particularly well).

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Not that I want to take money out of Michael's pocket :wink:, but I would like to point out that there is no reason you have to have a stainless/copper bimetal cover.  In fact, I would advise against it.  It's a pain to keep clean, and it doesn't really offer any performance benefits.  Instead of spending $75 on as copper/stainless bimetaol cover, you could, for example, spend $22 on this stainless cover from Paderno Grant Gourmet, or an eleven inch stainless cover from someone else (I recommend Paderno Grand Gourmet because I happen to own several Paderno pieces and noticed that their covers fit Falk particularly well).

I agree wholeheartedly. I wish I didn't have to sell any lids--they're a pain. Many are damaged in transit from Belgiuim and if one has even the slightest of defects, most people want to return it...

Michael Harp

CopperPans.com

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I agree wholeheartedly.   I wish I didn't have to sell any lids--they're a pain.  Many are damaged in transit from Belgiuim and if one has even the slightest of defects, most people want to return it...

This kind of straight talk is why I like to give my business to Falk.

Has there ever been any thought of offering a stainless cover as a lower-priced option?

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I have lids that have been banged around so much and reshaped that they have dimples here and there but as long as they can be hammered back into shape so they fit the pot or pan I am fine with them. That is one thing that you can do with copper but not with other metals. The guy that does my retinning is a whiz at flattening the rims of lids that have been bounced off floors and developed a little "flare".

One of my saucepans with straight sides even has an unintentional pouring lip from when a cast iron spider (griddle) dropped onto it. When I had it retinned the guy asked me if I wanted it reshaped but I told him to leave it as it was, I had gotten used to having it like that and it did make pouring easier.

"There are, it has been said, two types of people in the world. There are those who say: this glass is half full. And then there are those who say: this glass is half empty. The world belongs, however, to those who can look at the glass and say: What's up with this glass? Excuse me? Excuse me? This is my glass? I don't think so. My glass was full! And it was a bigger glass!" Terry Pratchett

 

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In comparing this pan to the current object of my desire, I can see that it is a bit deeper by 0.4" but what I can't tell is if there is less flat surface in the new pan. For my purposes, that would be a good thing. Please clarify.

Didn't I say the the flat surface was 5.5"'s? :blink:

Yep. What I can't find is the flat surface area in my original choice.

Linda LaRose aka "fifi"

"Having spent most of my life searching for truth in the excitement of science, I am now in search of the perfectly seared foie gras without any sweet glop." Linda LaRose

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I agree wholeheartedly.  I wish I didn't have to sell any lids--they're a pain.  Many are damaged in transit from Belgiuim and if one has even the slightest of defects, most people want to return it...

This kind of straight talk is why I like to give my business to Falk.

Has there ever been any thought of offering a stainless cover as a lower-priced option?

Sam, I have considered it in the past and don't remember why I didn't do anything about it. In fact, I talked with the owner of Demeyer about supplying me lids, but he wanted me to arder a minimum of 300 each, as I recall. I know some people at Vollrath, maybe I'll get in touch with them. It's a good idea...

Michael Harp

CopperPans.com

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...

Actually, it is 2.0mm, but is very substantial nevertheless....

The fact that it's 2.0mm rather than 2.5mm might actually be a benefit if overall performance includes practicality. The northern Chinese woks with their long single handles are picked up and the contents tossed about. In Breath of a Wok there's a close-up photo of a Chinese restaurant cook's forearm demonstrating the muscularity that one achieves from doing this all day. Although they are of different designs, it might be interesting to know how the weight of this new pan compares to that of the curved sauteuse evasee as some may be choosing between the two.

Edited by esvoboda (log)
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