Kershaw Shun Knives

[kristin_71]

Hey what do you guys know about kyocera knives? I am afraid I am becoming the annoying younger sister with a million questions.....

Edited February 2, 2007 by kristin_71 (log)

[Octaveman]

Don't forget your stones to keep those babies sharp.

Edited to add that I've heard some good things and a lot of not so good things about those knives. Like snapping in two, not being able to sharpen them, "too" light, etc. I'd stick with good old steel.

Like Chad points out, your cooking style should dictate what you need and what you don't need. I'm the only cook in my house so I don't need a quasi small knife for any reason. 270mm is my size of choice although I do have a 210 that I use and enjoy using a lot more than I thought I would. I personally won't go any smaller than that for general prep. Keep in m ind that you're not getting a real long knife anyway. Do you think you'll need another knife slightly smaller? Just throwin out some questions here.

Shun are good knives. I've found that the sides kind of cause drag as they slice through food. Could be an issue if you're lightly holding something and your knife is trying to pull it out of your grasp because the sides are rough. If you like the look of the damascus, you can check out the Hattori HD knives. They are a great line of knives, beautiful, comfortable handles and will last a lifetime. The sides are smooth as glass.

Edited February 2, 2007 by Octaveman (log)

[kristin_71]

oh wow the Hattori are gorgeous! Reasonably priced too. What is a Sujihiki used for?

[Octaveman]

It's a slicer for roasts, turkeys, etc.

Another brand you can consider is Kanetsugu. Their Pro-M line seems to be pretty good and very reasonable. I don't know anyone that has tried them but from the description, they seem like pretty decent knives. The handles are more ergonomic than most too so that may be a plus. Maybe Chad's heard a thing or two about them.

Edited February 2, 2007 by Octaveman (log)

[russ parsons]

if you like the feel of the globals, then i'd agree with the two experts. i've always found them kind of cold. i like a real wood handle (which is getting harder to find these days, i think).

the advice to try before you buy goes double. maybe triple, quadruple, whatever, with kyoceras. they are very sharp. they are very brittle and they are very light--really, extremely, unpleasantly light to my touch. you don't really appreciate how much even a little heft in a knife means until you try to cut up some vegetables with a kyocera. it's like working with a feather--and not in a good way.

[kristin_71]

Another question, what about MAC? Any good? What about Fujiwara? Bed Bath and Beyond carries Global? Since when?

Edited February 3, 2007 by kristin_71 (log)

[russ parsons]

i like mac a lot.

[Chad]

The Hattori HD's are excellent knives. Truly outstanding. The drawback, again, is that you won't find them even in specialty cutlery stores. You'll have to take a chance and buy before you try. Most of the better Internet knife stores have reasonable return policies, but it is a consideration. I have a 240mm Hattori gyuto that is one of my favorite knives. Very hard to go wrong unless they just don't ignite your passion.

The link that Bob posted to JapaneseChefsKnife.com is like the magic door for knife nuts. The site itself is clunky and a little amateurish, but Koki Iwahara is a treat to do business with. Prices are great, customer service is top notch (despite the language difference) and shipping from Japan is astoundingly fast. I've had stuff arrive in as few as three days -- faster than shipping within the US.

Russ is exactly right about the Kyoceras. In Japanese knives, light weight and hardness are virtues, but the Kyoceras take that to an extreme. They feel too light, slightly out of control and toy-like. They will also crack or shatter if you drop them on a hard surface. The other problem is that they are not as sharp out of the box as better Japanese knives and you can't do a damn thing about it. They can't be sharpened at home. Pass for now. The technology just isn't there.

As for MAC knives, I'm a huge fan. One of the best values out there right now. MACS are highly valued in professional kitchens because they are solid, comfortable workhorse knives that will take and hold an aggressive edge, even under pretty extreme use. They are also easy to maintain. A big plus in a non-knife nut kitchen . Hmm, don't know how this will come across, but when my mother confessed that she didn't have good kitchen knives ( ) I sent her a MAC MTH-80 chef's knife and PKF-30 paring knife. They don't have the snob appeal of the more esoteric knives but they are excellent performers at reasonable prices.

Last point. Russ is exactly right. The Global handles are a love 'em or hate 'em affair. Some people can't stand them. I didn't like them but have come to appreciate the light and lively feel of the G2 8" chef's knife that I've been playing with. The handles are the real make or break feature of these knives. The blades are pretty good.

It is a lot to think about. With any of the knives we've been talking about it would be hard to go wrong. Just don't go nuts. You don't need a $1,800 22-piece set of knives. You need two or three to get started. If your budget is larger than that, add on a little, get two good cutting boards and a sharpening stone or two (Bob's suggestions were right on, but if things get tight before pushing the "checkout" button, a 1K and a 5K stone will get you going).

Take care,

Chad

[maggiethecat]

I'm not a knife stud. I know perfectly well that two great (larger) knives are all any self-respecting cook needs. But me, I use a paring knife -- a sharp one! -- all the time.

I love these little French guys with bright wooden handles. They are sharp. They are cheap. They're made by the same French company that makes my beloved Main Couronne pocket knife. Did I mention they were sharp? Here's a link to the Williams-Sonoma site, but Crate and Barrel and Sur la Table carry them too. They are 6-7 bucks, sharpen well and are very very pretty.

these mauvais enfants

[waterdogs]

Just my two cents:

Some of these knives are VERY sexy, aren't they? That Japanese knife site is wonderful, as others have pointed out! I have some Japanese-styled knives (santoku) -- but not a Japanese brand. Mine are German or older carbon steel; so my comments are about those only.

Most seriously: Try before you buy. All the return policies in the world are not a good substitute.

Do not skip on a good sharpening steel/ceramic if you are buying traditional knives -- you should use BEFORE each time you use your knife. And do consider sharpening your own since you can adjust their performance that way too. There are various systems for identifying the "grit" used in sharpening too so take that into consideration if you decide to buy stones or sharpening systems: be sure you have a medium-fine and a fine in whatever system you use. But don't skip the straightening you can get from a steel/ceramic.

I am not sure about the fish tweezers since I have never used them; but if you think you want them, go for it. I prefer a flexible filet knife. And we catch our own fish, so I do this a lot.

Most of us women seem happiest with an 8 inch chef's knife -- a good rule of thumb (so to speak) is to use a length that matches the span of your thumb-to-little finger spread. Maybe your hand is smaller and that is why the 5 inch felt good. I have a good cooking friend who is smaller and the smaller size is perfect for her.

Bottom line: BUY WHAT FEELS GOOD. These are extensions of your arm when you are cooking, You won't use too many other ingredients several times every day!!

Have fun with your new purchases!

MJ

[kristin_71]

I love these little French guys with bright wooden handles. They are sharp. They are cheap. They're made by the same French company that makes my beloved Main Couronne pocket knife. Did I mention they were sharp? Here's a link to the Williams-Sonoma site, but Crate and Barrel and Sur la Table carry them too. They are 6-7 bucks, sharpen well and are very very pretty.

Oh I know Maggie! My mom has these same ones (although she only uses the one and the other three are in a drawer, why I do not know.) and I love them. We fight sometimes over who will use it when we cook together. They are super!

You don't need a $1,800 22-piece set of knives.

Which is why I want and trust the opinions of many people here. I don't need a bread knife and two paring knives or whatever all comes with a large set. I want only the most useful and functional knives for my use. If I ever decide to take that big jump to cullinary school then I know I will be set, even if I don't and just continue to be an amatuer cook.

Edited to add: In previous posts when I asked about the whetstones it was implied that I purchase more than one? How many do I get, would two be enough for my few new knives and should they be the same grit?

Edited February 3, 2007 by kristin_71 (log)

[CaliPoutine]

This question is for Bob or Chad or Russ

Have you read the article entitled " A better chef's knife" in the latest issue of Cook's Illustrated.

The reviewed 7 chef's knives with innovative designs. They recommended as a best value the victorionox fibrox 8 inch chef knife for 22.95. They also recommend a Glestain, Kershaw Shun Ken Onion, a MAC and another Kershaw Sun( alton brown)

Then in a sidebox they talk about a 475$ chef's knife from Bob Kramer( Olympia, WA). They love that knife. I must say its really beautiful.

Any thoughts on their reccomendations?

[Chad]

This question is for Bob or Chad or Russ

Have you read the article entitled " A better chef's knife" in the latest issue of Cook's Illustrated. 

The reviewed 7 chef's knives with innovative designs.  They recommended as a best value the victorionox fibrox 8 inch chef knife for 22.95.  They also recommend a Glestain, Kershaw Shun Ken Onion, a MAC and another Kershaw Sun( alton brown)

Then in a sidebox they talk about a 475$ chef's knife from Bob Kramer( Olympia, WA).  They love that knife.  I must say its really beautiful.

Any thoughts on their reccomendations?

←

That's interesting. Cook's Illustrated is moving up in the world. I'll have to pick that one up.

The Victorinox continues to be the best <$30 starter knife out there. A little pricier but a definite step into the big leagues is the $50 Tojiro 8" gyuto mentioned earlier.

It's cool that they mention MAC and Glestain. MACs are harder to find in retail stores than Shun or Global, but in my mind are easily their equal if not better, especially the Professional series. I like 'em a lot. The Glestains are great knives but can be hard to find. Just a few US Internet knife stores carry them, most notably Korin and Knife Merchant. JapaneseChefsKnife.com also carries them. The extreme kullen pattern on the Glestains actually works to keep food from sticking. The tepid, half ass patterns on most "granton edge" chef's knives doesn't.

And, yeah, Bob Kramer's knives are gorgeous and amazing.

Chad

[Octaveman]

I also think they choose a set number of easily attainable brands by the masses. I know that Hattori, Tojiro, Ryusen Blazen, Misono can run circles around them but the only place to get them other than the few scattered places around the country is on the internet. It's a shame that all these Japanese brands are not better displayed and tested in the general publics eyes. Things would be turned upside down if they were.

[kristin_71]

They also recommend a Glestain, Kershaw Shun Ken Onion, a MAC and another Kershaw Sun( alton brown)

I am not familiar with Gelstain but I am considering Shun knives for my new purchase inculding the Ken Onion chef's knife. That is one pretty knife. After that I was going to mix with some other Shun knives so that I would have the knives I wanted. Still not sure though cause I am still considering Global. All these choices to make.

[Chad]

I also think they choose a set number of easily attainable brands by the masses.  I know that Hattori, Tojiro, Ryusen Blazen, Misono can run circles around them but the only place to get them other than the few scattered places around the country is on the internet.  It's a shame that all these Japanese brands are not better displayed and tested in the general publics eyes.  Things would be turned upside down if they were.

←

Yep, that's why I was so surprised to see them include the Glestain. Maybe they have a new knife nut on staff.

Chad

[budrichard]

First of all, there is no best.

What you need to do is find knives that fit your hand and your budget. Wusthof knives handles vary in size acording to blade lenght. What is correct for me will not be correct for you. Then consider how much maintenance you want to do. Carbon steel requires more upkeep and sharpening, typically cheaper knives of 440C are difficult for the average person to sharpen and not worth much. Purchase 1 knife of what you come up with in an attractive lenght for you. Hold it when you get it. If it doesn't fit your hand send it back. This is an iterative process that only you can solve by trail and error. All else is pretty much not going to help-Dick

[kristin_71]

had a look at the MAC knives too. They are really not to badly priced and I am thinking about ordering a couple to see if I like them. So what I need to know is which two shall I order first? I was thinking a paring knife and a chefs knife in the begining. I like the fact that they are reasonably priced too.

Scroll down to the santoku and paring knife

http://www.macknife.com/superior.html

The 81/2 in Chef's knife

http://www.macknife.com/professional.html

The 71/2 in deba and maybe instead of the santoku the big veg knife near the bottom.

Any thoughs on the two would be appreciated!

http://www.macknife.com/japanese.html

Edited February 4, 2007 by kristin_71 (log)

[Ms. Agrodolce]

I also think they choose a set number of easily attainable brands by the masses.  I know that Hattori, Tojiro, Ryusen Blazen, Misono can run circles around them but the only place to get them other than the few scattered places around the country is on the internet.  It's a shame that all these Japanese brands are not better displayed and tested in the general publics eyes.  Things would be turned upside down if they were.

←

It's great to have all this expertise, and I do need some advice. We have some 20odd Henckels, Wusthofs, Sabatiers, Goldhamsters etc, but my wife (I'm Mr. "Ms. Agrodolce") gave me a Bob Kramer 8" Chef's knife for Christmas and I absolutely love it. Also after reading Chad's article on knife sharpening bought the Spyderco 240, used it yesterday on the Kramer and it's absolutely razor sharp.

My question is that I've ordered two more Kramers, the 6" Damascus Japanese Chef's knife (I use my 6" Henckels a lot) and one more just to "hold my place" in line (which I need your advice on). I like the look of the 6" Usuba Meiji as we do a lot of chopping etc in prep.

On the basis of Chad's article also ordered a 3 1/2 " paring knife and 5" utility knife from Tichborne the (fellow) Canadian knifemaker from Ontario. I've never been happy with any of my Henckels etc of these sizes, and this is kind of a trial of his knives.

I'm leaning towards the usuba as I think we'd use it the most, but would appreciate your advice.

If I get adventursome I'll try to overcome my fear of trying to post under my own name, it's "Vaughan"...I'll figure it out one day.

Thanks a bunch,

Vaughan

PS Am starting a major kitchen reno and have enjoyed lurking on all the appliance advice on egullet.

[Octaveman]

Hi Vaughn, I think Kramers knife that you're referring to is a Nakiri. An Usuba is a traditional Japanese design and is single beveled. The Nakiri is the same shape but is double beveled.

I may not be the best person to ask about the use of a Nakiri as I'v always used Gyuto's for my prep work. That's not to say I'm not willing to try them, I just haven't as of yet although I do have my eye on a nakiri made by Takeda. So with that in mind I think the Nakkiri, Santoku, Gyuto and light-weight cleaver are all used for veggie prep and they can do the same work. The style of usage will differ, of course, but there are those that prefer one over the other and is purely a personal preference thing. I would jump at the chance to get one of his knives specially one of his damascus knives but I don't think it would be one of his Nakiri's and the only reason would be that based on his pictures, there's very little knuckle clearance. But hey, it's a custom so he could make it with more clearance, right? The rounded tip will give you good rocking action too. I say go for it.

Actually, have you considered Murray Carter? Quite an amazing story behind him and he makes quite amazing knives. A Canadian who moved and studied in Japan for 10 years and was adopted by a knife making family to be next in their lineage. He now resides in Oregon. His Nakiri gets rave reviews from people who own them. Wait list is quite long right now though.

Anyway, hope this helps a little

[Ms. Agrodolce]

Hi Vaughn, I think Kramers knife that you're referring to is a Nakiri.  An Usuba is a traditional Japanese design and is single beveled.  The Nakiri is the same shape but is double beveled. 

I may not be the best person to ask about the use of a Nakiri as I'v always used Gyuto's for my prep work.  That's not to say I'm not willing to try them, I just haven't as of yet although I do have my eye on a nakiri made by Takeda.  So with that in mind I think the Nakkiri, Santoku, Gyuto and light-weight cleaver are all used for veggie prep and they can do the same work.  The style of usage will differ, of course, but there are those that prefer one over the other and is purely a personal preference thing.  I would jump at the chance to get one of his knives specially one of his damascus knives but I don't think it would be one of his Nakiri's and the only reason would be that based on his pictures, there's very little knuckle clearance.  But hey, it's a custom so he could make it with more clearance, right?  The rounded tip will give you good rocking action too.  I say go for it.

Actually, have you considered Murray Carter?  Quite an amazing story behind him and he makes quite amazing knives.  A Canadian who moved and studied in Japan for 10 years and was adopted by a knife making family to be next in their lineage.  He now resides in Oregon.  His Nakiri gets rave reviews from people who own them.  Wait list is quite long right now though.

Anyway, hope this helps a little

←

I haven't heard of Murray Carter but will follow it up, sounds like a fascinating story. Really appreciate the advice on him and the knives.

Vaughan

[Octaveman]

I haven't heard of Murray Carter but will follow it up, sounds like a fascinating story. Really appreciate the advice on him and the knives.

Vaughan

←

HERE is a link to pics of his catalog. The International Pro (IP) series is the top series to get. I'm trying to find his email as this is the only contact for him and as soon as I can find it, I'll post it. Someone may post it to the link above so keep checking back. that link above is a great resource for kitchen knives. It might be a good idea to join the forum as it has invaluable information for anyone doing research into kitchen knives. The main forum is called Knifeforums.com and we're all In The Kitchen. Come poke your head around and say hello.

Edited to add I found it. carter.cutlery@verizon.net . Here's a blurb I found on him too:

Upon completing his apprenticeship under the tutelage of a 16th generation Yoshimoto bladesmith, Murray Carter was asked to take the position of number seventeen in the Sakemoto family tradition of Yoshimoto Bladesmithing. He is the only Caucasian to ever have had the honor and privilege of this position.

In June 2001, Murray Carter was awarded the rating of Mastersmith by the American Bladesmith Society, thus proving a degree of competency by Western standards.

Edited February 5, 2007 by Octaveman (log)

[Blether]

Hi, Kristin. If you work with a lot of fish, do think about a filleting knife - I personally can't get a broad chopping-board knife round the ribcage of any fish smaller than about 2-3lb whole weight, and short vegetable knives won't span the whole length.

And just to be contrarian, there were knives before the West discovered Japan

Mine come from this range - http://www.welch.co.uk/product.asp?instanceid=20327 - the URL looks dubious, so Kitchenware - knives and accessories - professional range, if you have to go through the menus.

I'm still using some of the originals I bought over 15 years ago. I don't expect you'll buy from there, but maybe it adds another perspective to the thread ? They have great (table, for the Americans) cutlery too.

(Personally I can't see a good technical reason why an excellent volume-production 8-inch chef's knife need cost more than fifty bucks, though I don't criticise anyone's choice to spend more ).

Robert Welch R.D.I., M.B.E.

Robert Welch trained as a Silversmith at Birmingham College of Art. He then moved to the Royal College of Art in 1952, where he specialized exclusively in stainless steel production design. His first design consultancy was for Old Hall Tableware in 1955. In 1965 he was awarded Royal Designer for Industry. Robert Welch's most important commissions are in the Victoria & Albert Museum, The British Museum, the Museum of Modern Art, New York, Canterbury Cathedral and No.10 Downing Street, but undoubtedly, his cutlery designs in stainless steel have been sold and used more widely than any other part of his creative output.

Autobiography: 'HAND AND MACHINE' is an autobiographical account of 33 years as a designer craftsman, by Robert Welch. The book was designed by David Hillman, of Pentagram London, widely acclaimed for his redesign of the Guardian newspaper. From an educational point of view the book offers a demonstration of the development of finished articles from drawings and sketches.

Edited February 5, 2007 by Blether (log)

[kristin_71]

Robert Welch's most important commissions are in the Victoria & Albert Museum, The British Museum, the Museum of Modern Art, New York, Canterbury Cathedral and No.10 Downing Street, but undoubtedly, his cutlery designs in stainless steel have been sold and used more widely than any other part of his creative output.

What did he comission at Canterbury? I have been there, in part because I was an English major in college and the Canterbury Tales have a sort of been a private joke between my mom and I for years (the Wife of Bath) but that is another story. Been to the British Museum as well. Those are some beautiful knives, but I need the prices in U.S. $$$! And thanks for your advice on the filet knife. I will take it under advisement.

One of the reasons I like the MAC knives is that the chefs knives are fairly reasonable. I know I saw at least one for $50 and another for around $75 on the MAC official website. I also looked at another website that sells MAC and they have free shipping so that is a good thing too. I should be able to get the knives I need for around $400-500 or less.

Edited to add: I studied in England for a summer and made a trip to Warwick Castle. Beautiful place, with really cool dungeons that you could actually go down into. It was really neat!

Edited February 5, 2007 by kristin_71 (log)

[Blether]

The Canterbury Tales at their 'unexpurgated' best ? - I don't know what he made for the cathedral. There's an obit for him at The Guardian online, written by the wife of one of his major collaborators.

I went to an exhibition of samurai swords at the British museum - even bought the book !

I'm not familiar with MAC knives. I'm sure you know them and their reputation better than I do, and from the effort you're putting in I'm sure you'll make the right choice.

About Japanese knives, I'll say that for me, they come out of a tradition of professional cooking, where you can afford, you even desire, narrow specialisation. I mean, 'nakiri' for example is a knife specifically for cutting greens, right ? Sure, If I'm going to spend an hour or two daily just cutting greens I'll think about a tool specifically adapted to it, but in my home kitchen ?

You said you're looking at a santoku (~'multipurpose') knife - I think from a practical viewpoint that's duplication if you also have a western chef's knife - I can see a point in having two sizes (my girlfriend finds my big chef's knife too unwieldy and always reaches for the 6" one).

As a further note, I see many santoku knives (it's true of nakiri too) have very little rocker in the blade (curve along the length of the cutting edge) which gives a different chopping action on the board. If you're used to raising the heel of the blade high you could end up pivoting on the point of the blade - and that might not be so good for it or for your chopping board.

A deba knife is a good choice for fish - it gives you plenty of weight to get through a line of bones or split a head - but then that's the kind of thing it's for, isn't it ?

It's cool that you enjoyed your summer in England

Now, I can't resist while we're on the subject, and this is one for the workshop fanatics - over here you can see my (very !) good friend putting together a space-saving knife rack (not clear from the last few pictures, but it hangs on the back of the cupboard door) for me in his woodworking shop - Pictures - and I'm forced to confess that for all my advice I'm just as much of a kitchen-knife-fetishist as the next guy, with my full range of blades (I do know which ones I use most ).

Edited February 5, 2007 by Blether (log)