"The Bread Baker's Apprentice" by Reinhart

[FoodMan]

Judith, these look great! I like the idea of adding cornmeal and rye to make a nice grain bread.

What's the yellow tint on the barm? Is that Olive oil?

Also, do you slash the bread right after shaping or right before putting in the oven? I ask because the slashes look as if they "healed", which happens sometimes if you slash then let proof. Just curious.

Elie

[lovebenton0]

Judith, these look great! I like the idea of adding cornmeal and rye to make a nice grain bread.

What's the yellow tint on the barm? Is that Olive oil?

Also, do you slash the bread right after shaping or right before putting in the oven? I ask because the slashes look as if they "healed", which happens sometimes if you slash then let proof. Just curious.

Elie

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Thanks, Elie!

The yellow on the barm is OO cooking spray.

No, I did slash after proofing and wished I hadn't bothered to try. That usually goes like sssslick! But there was just enough heavy grain in the dough to make even my freshly sharpened knife want to pull so I just left it -- and as you see I didn't even bother to try it on the second boule. I usually slash when the dough is about 3/4 proofed and that gives it a lovely bloom. Like in my avatar. Bake and learn!

And do you have pics of your Tuscan loaf, Elie? I want to try that one too. Perfect for my lo-sodium diet. What, if anything, did you smear on your Tuscan? Hmmm . . . Based on PR's comments on the bread (flat taste without salt so the Tuscans dip or smear in rich food) and your comment on the sweetness of yours, it might work to do the extra night in the fridge retarding it. Just as alternative to over-proofing, that is.

[glossyp]

Lovebenton0 - Your bread looks wonderful. I agree with Elie that the combination of grains makes a great idea for a delicious loaf. The meal looks excellent too! Yum, yum.

Elie - Please post pics for your Tuscan bread if you can. I'm very keen to see what this looks like.

I made the odd recipe out from the BBA yesterday - the cornbread. It turned out quite well and was a perfect addition to our meal of chicken corn chowder. I made a half recipe and used a small cast iron skillet for baking. It took forever (almost 20 minutes) for the skillet to get hot enough to add the batter. Peter estimated 5 to 7 minutes using a regular cake pan.

Ready for the oven

Baked

Interior shot. You can just make out the corn kernels in the crumb.

Great to see what everyone is doing! I'm waiting now for my Oregon Trail starter to arrive having given up (for the time being) on getting one started here. You all inspire me!

[Marcia]

Fantastic pictures! Congratulations to everyone!

I'm going to make a pizza tonight (Pizza Napoletana page 207). The dough is in the fridge since last night. I'm using the italian flour "type 00" and I have no idea if it's good or bad for pizza. As my husband said, there's only one way to find out: making it. I'll post the results. Can't promise pictures because we're normally so hungry at dinner time!!

Have a nice weekend everyone.

Marcia

[FoodMan]

Wnderful cornbread. Another one that I have to try after seeing this.

Unfortunatly, I am STILL having problem uploading pictures to eGullet. that is why my Tuscan bread has not made it in this thread yet. Worst case, I will upload the pics from work on Monday if I cannot figure it out this weekend.

Tuscan bread, even though saltless, has great taste. So far I used it just like any hearth bread. Topped with soft scrambled eggs, topped with slices of spicy "basterma" (a cured beef), and smeared with butter and salt. I also liked it's taste cubed in a North African chickpea soup dish.

This weekend I will bake from another book, the recently acquired "HomeBaking : The Artful Mix of Flour and Traditions from Around the World". A wondeful book that I picked up brand new for $9 at HalfPrice books.

Elie

[FoodMan]

Finally, I got my images uploaded. Here is the Tuscan bread from last week:

This weekend I tried the cron bread to go with some chili I made. Wow!! even without the bacon (I did use bacon drippings though) it was wonderful. I baked it in my cast iron skillet. Sorry, for some reason I forgot to take a pic of the whole thing in the skillet. So here is a slice with the chili:

Elie

[glossyp]

Elie - Your Tuscan bread is spectacular! May I ask what tool you use to slash the tops of your loaves with? I've tried different sharp edges and followed Peter's instruction to slash at a horizontal angle but I always get some tearing - not clean cuts like you have.

The cornbread is excellent, isn't it? Your chili looks yummy too!

[FoodMan]

I use razor blades. The flat ones. You can buy them for a few dollars at any hardware store or hardware section at Walmart. Mine come in a pack of ten I think and I have had them for a couple of years.

Elie

[Marcia]

Questions to my fellow home-bakers:

When making a lean crusty bread:

1. Do you knead by hand?

2. What's your technique?

3. How long for in average?

4. When do you feel that it's time to stop kneading? Do you check the temperature? Do you make the windowpane test? Any other way?

---

I haven't got a Kitchen Aid or any of those wonderful mixers (although I asked it for Santa and he keep failing to bring it! ) and I mix everything by hand. I found that mixing the wet ingredients first and then adding spoonfuls of flour makes the task easier. Then I knead by hand using the push-roll-turn method. I normally make the windowpane test before stop kneading but I'm not sure if it's enough...

Well, so far my breads had a bit of dense consistence and I'm not sure if the lack of kneading is the culprid...

If you have a spare time, please tell me how do you knead your breads. Any input or suggestions will be appreciate.

Cheers.

Marcia

Edited February 9, 2005 by Marcia (log)

[FoodMan]

Unless the bread is very wet (like Ciabatta) I almost always use my food processor to incorporate and more or less knead everything. Then I transfer to my counter and knead some more, usually a couple of minutes is all that is needed at this point. My test is always the windowpane where applicable. I have no mixer either but the food processor really makes my life easier and cuts my mixing/kneading time by a lot.

Elie

[glossyp]

Hi Marcia!

I don't have a mixer so I knead all my breads by hand. I have found that I have to knead the lean breads (except for the super wet ones) for what seems a really long time to get the proper sheen and elasticity. I set a timer at 10 minutes and do my first check at that point. I usually have to knead for at least another 5 minutes. I remember when I was growing up watching my mother knead bread and how she wouldn't consider it "done" until she could windowpane a 3"x3" or thereabouts square without any tearing. When I first started baking bread I didn't heed this and had some less than pleasing results. Peter is right when he says it's virtually impossible to overknead bread by hand.

It's a great upper body workout! Hope this helps.

Forgot to add that I also check the temp as well but never follow that alone as an indication of readiness.

Edited February 9, 2005 by glossyp (log)

[Marcia]

Hello!

Thanks Ellie and Glossyp for sharing your kneading methods!

Today I baked the Pane Siciliano and I can honestly say that it was the best bread I've ever baked so far! Hooray!! It's nice, light and soft inside, the crust is nutty and crisp and the whole loaf smells so lovely! I think I'm finally getting there! I'm beginning to understand and to feel the dinamic of the fermentation, kneading, proofing and all that. I'm so happy and excited! Thanks each one of you who've been helping me and teaching me this alchemical magic of making bread ...

Here's a picture of My Big Fat S Bread:

I hadn't got sesame seeds so I used Poppy Seeds instead. It worked well in my opinion.

And here's a picture of the small roll I made with the rest of the dough:

Have you noticed the cute slash? Have you? Have you??

Marcia

[glossyp]

What beautiful bread! A perfect shape - congratulations on a stunning loaf! I can practically taste it...ummm, yummy! Yes, I did indeed notice the slash, very nicely done. How did you get the perfect slash I know you were struggling with it as I have been. Did you take Elie's tip and use a flat razor or something else??

[lovebenton0]

There's some beautiful bread popping up here! Marcia, lovely S and yes, cute slash too on the roll.

Corn breads, both of them, Elie and glossyp look wonderful as well as the Tuscan bread, Elie.

OK. I confess.... I forgot all about posting a pic of the second boule when I cut it. The taste was a bit sweeter, and the crumb was chewier than the first boule baked the day before. I did remember that I posted this of the second boule in the dinner thread.

We finished up the last of that boule yesterday as garlic toast -- a very good keeper.

More bread tomorrow.

Marcia, I knead by hand, but have used the FP to incorporate lliquid into the flour base a few times. Still knead after that. I find that 15 minutes total kneading time, i usually rest the dough, and myself after the forst 10 then for about 5 minutes then finish kneading. I use both the windowpane and the temp to gauge. Now that I have a good thermometer, I do. I used to just feel it. Same results, I've had plenty of practice feeling when the dough has come to life. But I do like the added assurance of the temp that I did not utilize before.

[FoodMan]

Marcia- This Pane Sic. looks perfect. The crumb looks excellent as well!

So what did you use to make that perfect slash?

Elie

[Marcia]

Thanks everyone for the compliments on my Pane Siciliano! The bread is gone, we ate it all !!

Well, now about the slash. I made some rolls in order to practice because so far my slashes have been pretty useless and ugly. Not long ago I received a kind PM from SethG giving me some tips to improve the slashes. Here's part of his e-mail:

(1) Hold your blade so that it pierces the surface of the dough at an angle-- not straight up and down. When you slash, the blade can be pretty close to horizontal to the bread, but cetainly no straighter than a 45 degree angle to the bread, and you'll immediately see the slash opening up just as you want it to look.

(2) You're slashing diagonally across your loaves at a pretty steep angle. Don't. Instead, slash your loaves almost right down the middle, but with a very slight angle. Look at some of Reinhart's pictures, and you'll see what I mean. As the cut opens, it gains an angled appearance from the shape of the cut.

(3) Overlap your slashes.

I realized that I was doing it all wrong! I read his instructions many times and also the Peter Reinhard's tips of thinking about slitting open an envelope. I use a very *very* sharp japanese knife (JKC). So i used this small knife, almost paralel to the bread, trying to not apply much pressure but let the knife bite the dough. But I still don't feel comfortable to give any instructions because I made 4 slashes and only that one worked and the others failled big time . I believe the dough also need to be in its right moment to be slashed and i think the surface need to be streched and tensioned. If completely proved the slash can make the dough colapse a bit. Am I wrong?

Marcia

[glossyp]

Judith, your salad looked so delicious...I made the mistake of looking at this thread just now when I'm starving!

I agree, lots of gread bread here plus the feedback and information has helped me so much. Thanks to everyone.

A quick question if anyone has an idea. I'm going to dinner at a fellow egulleter's house tomorrow and I'm supposed to bring bread. She is preparing pork chops with a maple/bourbon/pepper pan sauce to be served with mashed potatoes. What would be a good bread? Remember, I don't have any barm so whatever it is it needs to be made with a soaker or sponge that I can do overnight. I thought about the Anadama bread but not sure. She likes hearty breads with a dense crumb.

Thanks in advance!

BTW, Elie - love the new avatar!

[Marcia]

Glossyp, sorry for the delay in giving you a suggestion... You probably have already baked your bread by now. I would suggest the Potato and Rosemary Bread. I've never done it but I believe that the scent of the herb my go nice with the pork! But anyway I hope you enjoy your dinner!

Marcia

[Behemoth]

Hello,

I'm joining the party late but this is the first semester where I have enough free time to play in the kitchen. This was my first attempt at a Rienhardt bread (apart from pizza, which I make quite often.) Ciabatta.

I was happy with the crust, but the crumb is way too small. What happened to my holes?? Bah. I suspect it may be that my oven is too wimpy. I had to set it at 550 to get it to come anywhere near 450. Do you think that might have been the problem? In any case, I made a photo:

Crumb detail:

All suggestions appreciated. Thanks!

Edited February 12, 2005 by Behemoth (log)

[glossyp]

No worries, <b>Marcia</b>, sometimes I forget that when it's 5pm here it's much, much later in the UK and even on the east coast of the US. The Anadama bread is going through the first proof right now and I will post pictures of the finished product. It certainly smells good and was quite different in several ways which I will expound on later.

<b>Aloha, Behemoth!</b> Nice to have another participant in this fun and informative thread. Your bread looks great but I see what you mean about the crumb. I don't have any specific suggestions other than to keep baking. There are at least a couple of very experienced bakers here including <b>lovebenton0</b> and <b>FoodMan</b> who can probably give you some useful advice.

[vengroff]

Today (actually starting last night) I made brioche a tete.

I used a recipe between the rich and middle class recipes in Reinhart's book. I shaped them using a variant of method 2 on page 126, but only after seeing it demonstrated in the baking class I'm taking. If a picture is worth 1,000 words, a demo is worth 1,000 pictures.

As for the earlier question about kneading lean doughs, I do it by slapping the dough down on the counter, folding it in thirds, rotating ninety degrees, and repeating. It's faster than the KitchenAid mixer, and much less effort than the traditional knuckle or heal of the hand approaches. Of course for the brioche I just used the mixer since the dough is really sticky.

More pics and details on the brioche here here.

[glossyp]

<b>Vengroff</b>, your brioche is just spectacular. I followed the link to the complete process and it was so informative. I had no idea how brioche was shaped. They are beautiful.

May I ask what camera you are using for your food shots? The photos show such great detail and are nice and sharp.

[SethG]

I was happy with the crust, but the crumb is way too small. What happened to my holes?? Bah. I suspect it may be that my oven is too wimpy. I had to set it at 550 to get it to come anywhere near 450. Do you think that might have been the problem? In any case, I made a photo:

←

I've been enjoying reading this thread, and I've meant to jump in and do a few Reinhart recipes I've missed, but I haven't got 'round to it yet!

Behemoth, if I may jump in to try to answer your question, I think there are two likely culprits to blame for your ciabatta's tight crumb:

(1) This is the more likely: your dough should be wetter; and

(2) Your dough is over-developed, i.e., kneaded too long.

Ciabatta dough should be almost pourably wet. Any book's specifications should be tested against experience, as different flours under different climate conditions absorb water differently. Next time try it a bit wetter and see how it goes. If your dough is wet enough, you ought to be unable to keep the big holes from appearing. In fact, if you fail to poke the dough down all over with your fingertips you'll get one huge hole that will rip the top of your loaf right off of your crumb!

As for the development of gluten, check out this thread from the Reinhart Q & A, if you haven't already. It really opened my eyes as to how little you need to knead rustic breads. The particular thread I'm linking to is about the technique called "turning" or the "stretch and fold," but the discussion of that technique quickly takes us to the subject of kneading and holes. Here's the advice therein from Prof. Reinhart himself:

Some breads, like sandwich loaves, brioche, challah, soft enriched doughs, etc. require well organized gluten networks to create even-sized holes. But hearth breads are better with large irregular holes. If we develop the gluten just enough to hold together but not to the point of full organization of the strands, you have a better chance for large, irregular holes. These, again, translate into better flavor since the larger holes tranfer heat faster into the loaf, and thus it gels the starches, caramelizes the sugars, and roasts the proteins more thoroughly. It's always, in the end, about flavor and large irregular holes, simply stated, cause the bread to taste better.

Happy baking!

Edited February 13, 2005 by SethG (log)

[Behemoth]

I've been enjoying reading this thread, and I've meant to jump in and do a few Reinhart recipes I've missed, but I haven't got 'round to it yet!

Behemoth, if I may jump in to try to answer your question, I think there are two likely culprits to blame for your ciabatta's tight crumb:

(1)  This is the more likely:  your dough should be wetter; and

(2) Your dough is over-developed, i.e., kneaded too long.

Ciabatta dough should be almost pourably wet. 

I think that may be the problem. I expected it to be a little sticky, not as wet as you describe. I will give it a shot next weekend and report on the results. Thanks, Seth!

(Having said that, it doesn't look like this stuff will be going to waste or anything....)

[vengroff]

May I ask what camera you are using for your food shots? The photos show such great detail and are nice and sharp.

←

I use a Canon G3. It's a mid-sized digital from a few years ago. The current generation is the G6. For macro work I typically switch to manual focus. More important than the camera itself, I think, is the flash. Most built-in flashes are just terrible. I added a Canon Speedlite 420EX with a diffuser to mine, and it makes all the difference in the world.