PA Liquor Laws

[MarketStEl]

I live in Lancaster County, and frankly find your characterisation of the rest of the Commonwealth to be offensive.  Were I live there are a signifigant amount of conservative folks who oppose change in the system.  There are also lots of folks,like me, who woulld like to see change.  This sure ain't Alabama here and a discussion of the merits of the PLCB and changes to it are best served without  ridiculous statements like that being made.   I often post here about wine offerings at the PLCB specailty store in Lancaster, which is open on Sundays, by the way.

        What would you think of someone posting that everyone in Philadelphia is in favor of this change because the town is full of drunks. 

          My reply here does not begin to describe my upset at these sterotypical, ridulous statements you made.  True Fact:  I do not agree with those who oppose change and picketed PLCB stores.  However, I support there right to do so without calling them names or suggesting they are from Alabama.  Your unsupported generalisations about folks who live were I do are un fonded and unfair.

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I offer my apologies for the offense. I put the phrase in quotes because I was citing a rather infamous remark about the state made by James Carville, the mastermind behind Bill Clinton's 1992 election victory. He hails from Louisiana, where they apparently like their comments as highly seasoned as their food. (For what it's worth, Carville--a liberal Democrat--is married to Republican campaign strategist Mary Matalin.)

The comment refers to the generally more culturally (and politically) conservative outlook of the interior of the state. Of course, as you rightly point out, not everyone in rural Pennsylvania is a cultural conservative or a "redneck," nor is every Philadelphian a commie-pinko-liberal. (We hear they're having problems with the Ku Klux Klan in Montgomery County.) But in the broader sense, big-city Pennsylvanians (here defined mainly as--to cite Carville again--"Philadelphia on one end and Pittsburgh on the other") are more culturally liberal than rural and small-city Keystone Staters.

Moving this back to food-related discussion: Lancaster County's agricultural products are one of a number of reasons to take pride in Pennsylvania. In the "place-specific food" discussion over in General Food Topics, I argued that the Pennsylvania legislature might want to consider some sort of certified-place-of-origin status for Lancaster County foodstuffs much as Georgia has done for Vidalia onions. Such a move might also help Lancaster County farmers fend off development pressure more effectively as well.

Edited January 13, 2005 by MarketStEl (log)

[Sfuffy]

You are forgetting, what I think is the issue in this whole thing: the union (and this is from someone who works for a union). It seems that they have an iron-clad grasp around someone's cajones and refuse to let go. They have already said that the sale of the state stores would bring billions in revenue to Pennsylvania but no budging seems in sight. Maybe I have it all wrong but that seems to be the issue here.

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That "someone" whose cajones are in the vice grips (ouch!) is the state legislature. It seems that every few years, some legislator will give some lip service to the idea of privatizing the liquor biz, then the idea quietly fades away.

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The union is only one of many reasons why the state stores live on. Others include:

The PA State Government: The Legislature and Executive Branch love the annual revenues that sales from the PLCB stores bring in on a continuing basis. While sales tax and Johnstown Flood Relief tax revenue might remain level under privatization, the state would be deprived of the money added to its coffers from the the PLCB's profits. These profits help to fund state agencies relieving lawmakers of having to decide whether to raise taxes or cut programs. While privatization could conceivably bring in "billions" - this would be a one shot, short-term deal and the money would sure to be squandered over a few years. There's no mechanism for the state government to put away this money and draw it down over time (i.e., similar to an endowment).

The Cultural Conservative Population: The majority (though certainly not all residents by any means) of the population in the great central portion of the commonwealth comes from a culturally conservative background which is resistant to allowing private sales of alcohol. While not necessarily a majority of the population (witness how the Presidential votes of the Philadelphia and Pittsburgh regions made up the margin of victory for John Kerry), they are disproportionately represented in the PA Legislature. Thus since their state representatives, in line with their constituents, oppose changes in the current system, it's status quo.

Your Friendly Neighborhood Barkeeper: One of the major opponents to allowing retail sales of six-packs of beer has been Pennsylvania's tavern and bar owners. (They even opposed a recent proposal to allow beer distributors to sell 12-packs of beer.) Since the only place for most people to buy beer by the six-pack in PA is at their local bar (the only other options being beer stores like The Foodery which are few and far between and some deli/restaurants), it's a dirty little secret that some bars get a substantial portion of their profits from such (overpriced) sales. Allow six-packs to be sold by beer distributors (or, heaven forbid, supermarkets and convenience stores) and these profits would quickly shrivel up and many local bars claim they would be put out of business (even though somehow they survive in other states where beer is sold by the six-pack).

Your Friendly Neighborhood Beer Distributor: By the same token, beer distributors oppose losing the monopoly they have on beer sales. If you could buy a six-pack at your local Ac-a-me, why would you bother to go out of your way to buy beer in the warehouse atmosphere of a beer distributor (absent needing a couple cases or a keg for a party)?

(For what it's worth, at least PA is somewhat consistent in its narrow view of liquor sales (save for the whole buying a case of beer requirement). I used to live in Virginia where wine and beer can be had at any supermarket or 7-11, yet hard liquor is sold in state stores reminiscent of the Soviet Union.)

[herbacidal]

(For what it's worth, at least PA is somewhat consistent in its narrow view of liquor sales (save for the whole buying a case of beer requirement). I used to live in Virginia where wine and beer can be had at any supermarket or 7-11, yet hard liquor is sold in state stores reminiscent of the Soviet Union.)

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All your reasoning is correct. That's why I don't expect privatization anytime soon and am quite happy that Newman is utilizing the strengths of the system rather than just lamenting the weaknesses.

I do wonder though about how liquor and beer are bought and sold in restaurants and bars in other culturally conservative states in the Midwest and the South.

Anyone share info on Alabama, Oklahoma, and Montana?

[lancastermike]

You are forgetting, what I think is the issue in this whole thing: the union (and this is from someone who works for a union). It seems that they have an iron-clad grasp around someone's cajones and refuse to let go. They have already said that the sale of the state stores would bring billions in revenue to Pennsylvania but no budging seems in sight. Maybe I have it all wrong but that seems to be the issue here.

←

That "someone" whose cajones are in the vice grips (ouch!) is the state legislature. It seems that every few years, some legislator will give some lip service to the idea of privatizing the liquor biz, then the idea quietly fades away.

←

The union is only one of many reasons why the state stores live on. Others include:

The PA State Government: The Legislature and Executive Branch love the annual revenues that sales from the PLCB stores bring in on a continuing basis. While sales tax and Johnstown Flood Relief tax revenue might remain level under privatization, the state would be deprived of the money added to its coffers from the the PLCB's profits. These profits help to fund state agencies relieving lawmakers of having to decide whether to raise taxes or cut programs. While privatization could conceivably bring in "billions" - this would be a one shot, short-term deal and the money would sure to be squandered over a few years. There's no mechanism for the state government to put away this money and draw it down over time (i.e., similar to an endowment).

The Cultural Conservative Population: The majority (though certainly not all residents by any means) of the population in the great central portion of the commonwealth comes from a culturally conservative background which is resistant to allowing private sales of alcohol. While not necessarily a majority of the population (witness how the Presidential votes of the Philadelphia and Pittsburgh regions made up the margin of victory for John Kerry), they are disproportionately represented in the PA Legislature. Thus since their state representatives, in line with their constituents, oppose changes in the current system, it's status quo.

Your Friendly Neighborhood Barkeeper: One of the major opponents to allowing retail sales of six-packs of beer has been Pennsylvania's tavern and bar owners. (They even opposed a recent proposal to allow beer distributors to sell 12-packs of beer.) Since the only place for most people to buy beer by the six-pack in PA is at their local bar (the only other options being beer stores like The Foodery which are few and far between and some deli/restaurants), it's a dirty little secret that some bars get a substantial portion of their profits from such (overpriced) sales. Allow six-packs to be sold by beer distributors (or, heaven forbid, supermarkets and convenience stores) and these profits would quickly shrivel up and many local bars claim they would be put out of business (even though somehow they survive in other states where beer is sold by the six-pack).

Your Friendly Neighborhood Beer Distributor: By the same token, beer distributors oppose losing the monopoly they have on beer sales. If you could buy a six-pack at your local Ac-a-me, why would you bother to go out of your way to buy beer in the warehouse atmosphere of a beer distributor (absent needing a couple cases or a keg for a party)?

(For what it's worth, at least PA is somewhat consistent in its narrow view of liquor sales (save for the whole buying a case of beer requirement). I used to live in Virginia where wine and beer can be had at any supermarket or 7-11, yet hard liquor is sold in state stores reminiscent of the Soviet Union.)

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Stuffy,

Your reasoning is spot on. There are many reasons the system is hard to change and you have named them all. Very good.

The other states I have experience with are North Carolina were beer and wine are avaiable in the grocery stores but the state sells the liquor in store that reminds one of the PLCB in the 70's. Many counties preclude liquor sales by the drink in restaurants and other public houses. There are private retailers of wine but it is tough for them to make money as the grocery stores hammer them on the price of beer and the popular brands. Also they have no liquor sales.

Virginia is pretty much the same.

When I was in Texas, and this was a while ago, there were lots of liquor and beer stors including the drive thru ones. However, liquor by the drink was no avaialble as you had to "join" bottle clubs.

Now that PLCB has started doing new things with wine, and with help that is friendly and helpful, I don't have real problems. Being able to buy a bottle on Sunday has made me happy

[percyn]

True (somewhat related) funny story...

When I moved to PA a few years ago, I happened to visit my local "wine & spirits" store, not realizing that it was state owned/controlled (I thought "wine & spirits" was a chain-store...hey it was only my 2nd day in the state that controls its wine distribution...a new experience for me). While entering the store, I had noticed the store was closed on Sundays (this is shortly before they started to stay open on Sundays). While I was checking out, I inquired with the clerk as to why they are closed on Sundays and whether anyone had estimated how much lost business/revenues that translated to. The clerk just gave me a wacky look and cited something about the Quakers.

On my next visit a few days later, I inquired about purchasing some Bordeaux wine futures. The clerk did not know what that meant and summoned for "the manager", who told me that it is illegal to purchase wine futures in PA and that I could get arrested !! . I told him I thought that was nonsense and asked for someone who could explain why that was so. In short he said (and I paraphrase)..."I don't make the laws....I only follow them". So since then, every few months, I send a letter to my state legislators from Free the grapes and in return receive a form letter thanking me for my letter and that they will look into the matter further....yeah right !!

Anyway, I am not that thick-headed now and learnt a bit more about PA liquor laws (still wonder why beer and wine & spirits are sold in separate stores, but that is a topic for another thread). Seriously though, I must say that sometimes PA's purchasing power is put to good use. Last year I pick up a couple Bordeaux that would have easily cost $200/bottle more if I crossed the state line (not to mention, I could get arrested )

Cheers

Percy

P.S: Interested to see what Diedre has to say on this thread.

[MarketStEl]

          When I was in Texas, and this was a while ago, there were lots of liquor and beer stors including the drive thru ones. However, liquor by the drink was no avaialble as you had to "join" bottle clubs.

Based on my own visits to Texas, I suspect that either or both of the following are true:

--You were there a very long time ago, prior to the mid-1970s, when I had a tequila sunrise--illegally--in a Dallas TGI Friday's (a schoolmate of legal age ordered it for me);

--Texas, like many other states, has a local-option provision that allows counties to restrict or ban outright sales of alcohol, much as New Jersey allows individual townships and boroughs to do so.

          Now that PLCB has started doing new things with wine, and with help that is friendly and helpful, I don't have real problems.  Being able to buy a bottle on Sunday has made me happy

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There is no doubt that the current PLCB chairman has done much to make the state system more consumer-friendly on all counts.

FWIW, last I looked into this, 15 or so U.S. states and one county in Maryland have government-run or -controlled alcohol sales. Of those, the notable exception to the rule that state-controlled liquor stores are unwelcoming places to buy booze has historically been New Hampshire, where the state liquor stores are a major source of revenue for the state government, much of it from residents of neighboring Massachusetts. (Didn't someone say something about liquor stores on freeways upthread? Well, don't laugh. Each of New Hampshire's three turnpikes has at least one state liquor store located on the side of the road where in other states you would find service plazas. Fill your trunk with booze, but remember, drinking and driving don't mix!)

[djbeers]

For those who asked about Alabama liquor laws....

It is a state run thing. The state has retail and wholesale ABC stores. These sell only liquor and fortified wine. Private liquor stores are allowed, if local ordinance approves of them, but they must buy their stock from the state.

There are many "local option" rules. For instance, a city of a minimum size can vote to go wet but the surrounding county can be dry. But if a county goes wet, all the cities inside it's borders are automatically wet. There are many dry counties in Alabama, mostly in the central part of the state. By act of the legislature, and with approval by a local vote, a city or county can be allowed to have liquor sales on Sunday. These are exemptions to the state law that says no sales can be done on Sunday. The larger cities all have gone to Sunday sales because of tourism business. Some counties can sell on Sunday. It is crazy at times. I live a couple miles from Madison County, in which the city of Huntsville exists. Madison County has the most liberal liquor laws in the state. Sunday sales, both for on-premises and take-out sales. Kegs are legal in Madison County (as opposed to most of the rest of the state). You can buy a can of beer or a case or more. A bottle of booze or a trunkload. Same for wine. Any day of the week. There are bars, lounges, dozens of private stores, whatever.

On the other hand, my town of Athens just went wet last year. The county (Limestone) is still dry, but the city of Athens annexed some places that are really outside of the traditional city limits and guess what? That's right. Those annexed places were made part of the city so businesses in the annexed areas can sell booze (tax money!). No stand-alone bars are allowed though. No private liquor stores are allowed. Beer and wine can be sold by grocery stores and convenience stores, and one lone beer store. But they can sell both beer and wine, and their is no minimum purchase, so you can buy singles or sixers as well as cases. Liquor can only be sold at the lone state-run store. Bars can only exist in restaurants, and those establisments must have 70% (I think) of the sales from food.

I am originally from upstate NY. I also was stationed in PA for a couple years (Willow Grove). I well remember PA's silly laws. Believe it or not, Alabama liquor laws are generally more liberal than those in Pennsylvania. But then again, about half of Alabama is legally dry. But you can possess booze in dry counties. An adult can have one case of beer and 5 quarts of liquor and/or wine in their possession in a dry county and it is legal.

Dave

Edited January 22, 2005 by djbeers (log)

[Mottmott]

Every Republican governor of the state from the 1970s up to but not including Tom Ridge has made a show of moving to privatize the state liquor stores. And I think even Ridge paid some lip service to this.

Besides the reasons others have already given here, I think one of the big reasons the state liquor laws remain as they are is because of the rural-urban divide in this state--compounded here by a geographic difference between the two biggest cities.

The people in the "Alabama in between" parts of the state really have little or no interest in changing the way liquor and beer are sold; by and large, they sympathize somewhat with the religious folk who picketed the 1218 Chestnut Street PLCB SuperStore on the first Sunday it was open for business.

If Allegheny County were closer to a state that did not also have a controlled system of alcohol sales, there might be more efforts to change things, but as it stands now, the main people agitating for a more drinker-friendly system are Southeastern Pennsylvanians, who live just a hop, skip and jump away from New Jersey, Delaware and (in the case of southern Chester County) Maryland.  As long as it's only Philly-area consumers who are doing all the agitating, there won't be any real changes aside from those that can be made by an oenophile Liquor Control Board chairman such as the one currently in charge.

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I live in Lancaster County, and frankly find your characterisation of the rest of the Commonwealth to be offensive. Were I live there are a signifigant amount of conservative folks who oppose change in the system. There are also lots of folks,like me, who woulld like to see change. This sure ain't Alabama here and a discussion of the merits of the PLCB and changes to it are best served without ridiculous statements like that being made. I often post here about wine offerings at the PLCB specailty store in Lancaster, which is open on Sundays, by the way.

What would you think of someone posting that everyone in Philadelphia is in favor of this change because the town is full of drunks.

My reply here does not begin to describe my upset at these sterotypical, ridulous statements you made. True Fact: I do not agree with those who oppose change and picketed PLCB stores. However, I support there right to do so without calling them names or suggesting they are from Alabama. Your unsupported generalisations about folks who live were I do are un fonded and unfair.

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Ah, but you're willing to "characterize" Alabama, right?

[Andrew Fenton]

Thanks for the information, Dave, and welcome! Interesting to hear how things work in Alabama. I'm down in Georgia a lot, and am always amused by how much easier it is to get liquor, wine and beer down there in the Bible Belt. (But that may be because I stick to the wet counties; don't really know...)

[djbeers]

Thanks for the information, Dave, and welcome!  Interesting to hear how things work in Alabama.  I'm down in Georgia a lot, and am always amused by how much easier it is to get liquor, wine and beer down there in the Bible Belt.  (But that may be because I stick to the wet counties; don't really know...)

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Thank you! I have been reading hollyeats.com for a couple years and just recently realized there were forums! I also am familiar with Invision forum software - my forum (www.sealettercruiseforum.com) uses it.

Even when the city of Athens Alabama was dry it was easy to get booze. And I don't mean taking the 10 mile drive to the Madison County line, where several liquor stores are conveniently located. <g> Each of those private stores are licensed to sell beer, wine, and liquor. They also sell 7 days a week, which means they still get Athens business on Sundays. <g>

There are still many bootleggers around here. Indeed, some people still use them even though they can legally buy booze in town. Why? Because some bootleggers deliver.