Indian Desserts

[Fat Guy]

Okay, I admit it, I just can't convince myself to like Indian desserts. At least, not based on the ones I've tried.

I recently ordered a bunch of stuff from Surati Farsan Mart in California (which is temporarily closed on account of a kitchen fire, details at http://www.suratifarsan.com ) and I found most of it to be painfully cloying and one-dimensional. These are supposed to be some of the best Indian sweets around, though I suppose there must be better ones in India.

So, what's the deal? Have I just not been exposed to good Indian desserts? Will somebody educate me a bit here?

[Steve Klc]

Suvir--I should tell you right now I'm waiting for you to go first.

[Suvir Saran]

Steve,

Maybe you should go first.  I want to see your views.  And then say what I have to.  That would be better.

What do you say?  We have had this chat before.. I believe on this site itself.

[ajay]

I have to say that as an individual of Indian (gujrati) origin, I also don't find much in Indian desserts to reccomend them.  Almost all of the sweets made or consumed by my family are cloyingly sweet.  Examples include Jaleebi and hulvah.  I do admit, however to having occasional cravings for kulfi (a sort of ice milk) and goolab jamum.  But these desserts are not as interesting or multifaceted as most european/american desserts.  

In the interests of full disclosure, i am in no way familiar with Indian haute cuisine or all of the dishes outside of the gujrat reigon, so the desserts may exist and I could just be ignorant.

I eagerly await the opinions of the experts.

[ajay]

I just realized that aside from kulfis, I have never really seen the incoroporation of fruit into many indian desserts.  I wonder why that is.

[Fat Guy]

Kulfi I like very much.

Waiting for either shoe to drop . . .

[jhlurie]

Another vote for Kulfi.

And what's that orangish-yellow pudding I've seen at a couple of Indian restaurants.  It's sort of Tapioca, but not exactly.  It's  very very orange colored, actually, more so than yellow.

And Rice pudding too, although I won't be surprised if that's not really Indian in nature but just winds up at a lot of Indian restaurants, the way it does in Asian restaurants of all types.

[Suvir Saran]

And I await Steve's note.

Steve... are you sharing your thoughts with us?  I am waiting.

Ajay all I can say is that while you are true about many being too sweet, you speak of a very limited range.  What you may have seen in Gujarat would have been a small representation of Indian sweets as a whole.

As I traveled through India, desserts unfurled to my eyes, like did languages, customs and traditions.  Beware, India is also the same country which has desserts made with chicken, lamb and even venison.  Fruits are a huge part of the diet in the northern region and especially Himachal Pradesh.  Desserts are made with several fruits.  These are made into kulfis, Puddings and also halvas and cakes.  

But I will get into more detail after I read what Steve has to say.  Since he is the pastry chef.. and I just a lover of desserts.  I could live without most any food, but could never give up desserts.  No amount of courses are too many.  I like them all.. from being scantly sweet to being cloaked in sugar.  I am exceedingly multifaceted in my liking of desserts.

[Suvir Saran]

I have no clue what this very orange dessert you are talking about is.  We do use tapioca but I have not seen anything orange made with it.  We do tapioca pudding, a similar concept to the tapioca pudding one finds in parts of the Americas.  Could you be perhaps making a reference to Jalebis?  The concentric circled Orange sweet?  Has an orange color and is a deep fried dessert that has been then soaked in a simple syrup.

Kulfis are great.  I love Kulfi.  There is something ethereal about it to my taste.  But I am certainly prejudiced as I grew up with it.

Rice pudding is as Indian as a dessert can get.  But Indian rice pudding is very different from what you find in Asian or middle eastern or western restaurants.  It has much less sugar and most of the sweetness in a correctly rendered Indian rice pudding comes from having reduced the milk by a lot.  It is the milk solids that make it seem sweet.  And certainly make the pudding very rich and creamy and sinful.  It is rare to find well made rice pudding at a restaurant.  Even in India it is a rarity.  In fact, so much so, that most home chefs have forgotten the art of making good rice pudding.  People do not seem to care to give as much time to its preparation as it deserves.  

Firni is a great variation of rice pudding that came to India from the middle east.  It is made with rice flour and not  the grain.  It is smooth and sets like a pudding made with jello.  Light and creamy, it is a great dessert.  I had friends in Delhi, Bombay and Pune from Palestine, Jordan and Syria that loved Firni because it reminded them of the rice pudding their grandmother would make in better times.

[ajay]

Suvir,

Your post is very intruiging...I hope you will speak more on desserts made from chikcen lamb and venison; I 've never heard of such things.

I recall having burfees (I'm really not sure about the proper transliteration) made from fruits and cahsews and hulvah made from carrots, but even here, the sugar overwhelms all of the subtelties of the dessert.  (Come to think of it, high sugar levels permeate gujrati cooking, but that is a separate thread.)

Also, you mentioned "cakes" as Indian desserts.  I would very much like for you to elaborate on this point.  I never thought of cakes as being Indian at all.  I always assumed they, like all breads made with yeast, were recent imports from the west.  How much of these assumptions are sheer ignorance, I confess, I do not know but I eagerly await any knowledge you care to impart.

[Fat Guy]

The orange stuff is usually mango, I think.

Suvir, are you saying that the condensed milk used in Indian dessert-making has no added sugar but instead gets its sweetness by concentrating substances already present in milk? I always assumed it was sweetened with sugar. I seem to recall the cans saying "Sweetened Condensed Milk."

I too look forward to a lesson in lamb desserts. Now that sounds interesting. I've been predicting for years that someone in New York eventually will experiment with fish desserts. Clam ice cream. Yum.

[wingding]

The yellow/orange color could be saffron.The kheer at Bukhara,in New Dehli was memorable-very cold and creamy,probably made with reduced milk.I've also had really good chickpea barfi at Thali,in N.Y.-what made it good was the toasty flavor.I 'd also like to know more about home cooked Indian desserts...

[Simon Majumdar]

Bringing the banglas into this for a moment

Bengalis are obsessed with sweets in all their forms and while my spelling of it may be far from accurate, I can recommend looking for Rabri - A dessert made by continuously boiling milk and moving the skin to one side.  After many hours, all that is left is the skin which forms a wonderous creamy pudding which is served sprinkled with pistachio

Superb and very makeable at home

S

[Suvir Saran]

Simon,

Welcome back.  How was your foray into France?

I anticipated a much different response from you.  But I guess you are far too humble to sing praises of the masterful wizardry with which the Bengalis have given India the best of desserts.

Rabri- your spelling is right as far as I know, but again, it is a hindi word, and in english different people spell it differenly.  It is my most favorite and desired dessert.  I could travel across continents to get it.  In fact, in LA, I wish I remembered the name of the store, an ex-army officer from India, makes the best Rabri I have had outside of a small village near Rohtak in Haryana.  My parents would have the Rabri driven over 300 Kilometeres in a chilled carton to serve at decadent parties in Delhi.  For those special occasions.  And from another village another 300 Kms or so in another direction, would come Malpuas (pancakes) that were served hot alongside the chilled rabri.  This was heaven right on earth to 15 year old Suvir.  And my father saw such pure, innocent and simple love of  the sublime in my eyes, that he knew after that first time, that with this meeting of two great desserts, he had found that perfect way of making little Suvir do that which he wanted me to and I did not.  Homework more and more of it.  A gift of these two desserts paired together, could make me a willing indentured laborer.

But now to other desserts - Ajay, the Venison, Lamb and Chicken desserts are from an India that is lived in decadence and over the top existence.  A remnant of the Mughal era, these are made in homes where chefs come from a lineage of cooks that have proudly catered feasts for those that knew better than most of us foodies combined will ever know.  While in America we have white paties and black parties, that bring people to dance and get into a trance, in India of those days, a white feast meant all foods that were served at a particular meal were white.  WHich meant bleaching of spices and nuts to ensure their usage without losing the essence of the evening.  So, in those days, meats were cookied with milk and cream and spices and made into puddings.

When I say cakes, I do not talk about baked cakes.  We have a dessert that comes from Alwar in Rajasthan called Milk Cake, it is nothing but a milk fudge that has been made by a reduction of milk over so many hours that the solids are first white, some are set aside the others are cooked further till they turn a little ligh caramel colored, this is then layered over the white fudge, then the milk fudge is cooked further to add more color and more layers... and in the end, you have a layered cake with several grades of white and brown.  When I have friend coming from Delhi they come bearing Milk Cake from Alwar if they can or simple Kalakand.  It is milk fudge in a consistency where it is still not too dry and yet not too wet.  The milk solids are like pearls sticking with one another.  Again, while a poor chef would make these too sweet, a careful chef would take the extra hours of cooking to reduce the milk without adding sugar to speed t he process.

Steven, condensed milk comes from the west.  The poor Indian village chef will not even know what those cans are or what he could do with them.  So, while chefs from India have used it for home cooking, they are looked down on by even other young chefs like me.  In my Indian cooking, I never.... Never use condensed milk.  While believe it or not, there are savory sauces in which I use Heinz Ketchup.  So, I am not all that pure.  Condensed milk has been used by chefs with little time to give milk custards a sweetness and also a creamier consistency without having to reduce the milk that much more.  Or at least that is what I am told as t he reasoning for using condensed milk.  

And yes a perfect rice pudding or rabri or milk cake is made by condensing the milk by cooking for hours... not just one or two or three.. but several more... and then when the milk gets to that very thick consistency, it already has a lot of sweetness and simple sugar is added to bring it to where you want the sweetness to be.

Now back to Simon and Bengali Sweets - When was the last time anyone tasted Mishti Doi (sweetened yogurt)?  Or Sandesh (for lack of a better description - desserts made with Indian cheese), or Ras Malai from Bengali Sweets in New Delhi?  If the answer is yes, you know what I feel about them.  If the answer is no, take the next aircraft to India, make trips to Calcutta and Delhi, and there, go to the temples of desserts run by Bengali chefs, you will have desserts like you did not know existed.  Not too sweet, and yet, desserts that will take you to another world.  With textures, tastes, flavorings and consistencies.  Mishti Doi - the sweetened yogurt custard from Bengal, is a dessert that even those that hate sweets will fall in love with.  It has the perfect blending of sour with sweet.  And of creaminess with the lightness of yogurt.  How do they make it?  I do not know... not too many in India can make it.  I have seen a recipe or two in cook books... they test to be very poor.  Sandesh made from Indian cheese (called chenna before it is shaped into paneer) is another array of Indian desserts that are easy to enjoy for a non Indian palate and delectable in taste and low in sugar.  They also come in many shapes and sizes and flavors.

I am sure Simon can tell us more about these and other great desserts from Bengal.  They are undoubtedly the wizards when it comes to Indian desserts.  It is thus no wonder that sweet shops across India often have the word Bengali somewhere in their name.  It makes them seem pedigree.

And for the rest... I await Steve Klc's views, before sharing more of mine.

And Ajay, another different dessert for you... Garlic Pudding.

[Simon Majumdar]

I am hugely fortunate as all of these ( Rabri, Sandesh, Doi ) are all readily available here in London

My favourite place in town is the Pradeep sweet mart near Northwick park hospital where a Gujurati man and his wife ( bengali ) have the most amazing shop selling all sorts of sweets ( incluing 10 varieties of barfi ) and many savouries.  They sell doi in the earthenware pots at 50p a throw and it is every bit as good as in India.

They also make wonderous rabir and last time I was there let me make my own jaleebi(sp?)

I may have to have some ros malai tonight.  I can feel an evening of sweets, tagore, Pantha Panchali and sad ballads coming on

S

[Suvir Saran]

Pantha Panchali - is it the same as Pather Panchali... the film you mean?  

You are lucky you get Doi there in London.  We do not... and it is terrible in the place i have eaten it at.  Worse than even simple home made yogurt.  And in earthenware shikoras no less... wow.

Aamar Sonar Bangla, Ami Tumaaye Bhaalo Bhaashi

Tagores poems are brilliant... wish they would seem as brilliant in english.  But words like those cannot be found in this language of ours.  It is way to cut and dry, black and white, Tagore and his poems  thrived in the looseness of the moment.. and in the many subtle ways in which words can be changed... now I will be singing Rabindra sangeet and Nazirul Geeti all day myself.

[jhlurie]

now we should go and pester BON about Japanese desserts...

as far as the orange colored pudding goes... is Carrot even remotely possible?  I have a vague memory... (I've only seen this pudding in maybe two restaurants, and both were years ago)

[Suvir Saran]

Yes carrot Halwa is one possibility.. the other would be Jalebis which are more common... but both are divine when made right... which does not happen too often in NYC restaurants at least.

[Steve Klc]

In short, I think Indian desserts stink, that they not only are poorly executed but lack refinement and are often inherently flawed, especially if you view them in light of the dominant French or Western dessert framework.  

But, I think it would be much more helpful to try to view them on parallel tracks--first, assess Indian desserts on their own, appreciated in isolation or as achievable ideals--and then second, evaluate how they stack up alongside the French model and try to determine whether this exercise is even a valid comparison. It's often too easy just to say what something is not, than what it is or could be.

I've had similar problems comparing and embracing other Asian desserts with ingredients like sticky rice, coconut, red azuki beans, green tea, palm sugar, and sesame seeds.  But then you run into somebody like a Philippe Conticini--who thinks nothing of sprinkling exotic and complex spices, nuts, seeds on top of his desserts--and you realize it has been a very Asian concept all along--if we just opened our eyes and our possibilities.

So let me clarify a bit.  I've never been to India or London and am basing my sweeping indictment of Indian desserts solely on the examples I've had in: what passes for modern Indian-influenced restaurants of NYC, like Tabla, which had an American pastry chef and Surya, which Raji initially consulted for; classic NYC places like Dawat, Chola and Akbar, two unimpressive upscale Indian restaurants in Washington, DC--Bombay Club and Heritage India, cheaper restaurants, markets and specialized dessert shops in Indian communities in the outer boroughs of NYC and Iselin, NJ that serve primarily an Indian clientele and from what I've made from recipes in books.

From what I saw, tasted and created--I could not make a case for the validity and viability of Indian desserts as they were--and in almost every instance the specific dessert and my dining experience would have been enhanced by some tweaking--some subtle, some drastic--more along the lines of the French/Western dessert model.  Clearly reducing the over-arching sweetness, which actually hinders any appreciation of what these desserts could be, helped immensely.

So after you get past the problems in dessert perception--if you know anything about Western desserts--and take the cloying sweetness, as Steven objects to, out of the picture, what are you left with?

First--an incredible historical range of ingredients and flavors-- some exotic, some intoxicating, combined in incredible ways that puts the relative conservatism and rigidity of French dessert "flavors" to shame.  This is, sadly, all too often matched by a failure to commit to use the highest quality ingredients, little fresh fruit, infrequent use of eggs, no chocolate;

Second--techniques--many are traditional, time-consuming, poorly conceived and unrefined--and the technology employed is certainly unevolved;

Third--dessert forms--mostly rustic and comfort-style, simple and simplistic, though still capable of generating interest and surprise on the palate.  For me, perceived shortcomings are of complexity and integration--Steve Shaw says ”one dimensional” and ajay says “not as interesting or multifaceted”--and I suspect we're all talking about the same thing.  There is often less interesting textural contrast, less delicacy, less refinement, "richness" is achieved in other ways rather than using cream and eggs or gelatin--all of which can't help but affect perceptions and hinder the ability to hit “western” highs--but this does not necessarily preclude good desserts.

Part of the problem seemed to me that these desserts and sweets were being made by Indians for Indians within the confines of Indian communities--all of whom aimed too low.

From reading along in this thread, however, I fear my ultimate contributions will be limited because, like Steven Shaw and others, I have not had worthy examples of the best Indian desserts--from those temples in India that Suvir writes so passionately and revealingly about.  I can't help but feel that the practitioners of Indian desserts in this country have not revealed their secrets to me yet or don't have the talent or palate to do so. Suvir speaks eloquently that "the tastes and textures and forms that these desserts have, will thrill not only your palate, but awaken the senses in all ways.  Indian desserts have had a very poor representation in the US. Simply because they are not always easy to prepare.”  This gives me great hope would it be true.

I can tell everyone jaggery is incredibly complex if you open your eyes to it--with nuances of flavor unknown in Western refined sugar.  On the flip side, agar-agar is overused in many Bombay style sweets and jellies, too thick, too sweet with poor texture--inherent in the use of agar-agar rather than more subtle use of gelatin, pectin from certain fruits, in things like gelees and pate de fruits in the Western platform.

Let's take a example, Suvir writes "It is rare to find well made rice pudding at a restaurant.  Even in India it is a rarity.”

I agree.  I also experimented with several strains of Indian rice for use in a coconut panna cotta dessert--and no matter how I cooked the rice, I wasn't happy with the texture in the finished product.  I ended up using an arborio superfino.  Yet I knew Asian rices could be sublime--depending on how they were cooked or steamed, and that there were differences with Japanese sticky rice and Lao sticky rice, for instance. Add spices or nuts and you could easily turn this into something special.

But then there is the whole reduced milk vs. sweetened milk vs. evaporated milk thing.  I fear alot of shortcuts are taken here--as Suvir has already mentioned.  Kheers and puddings with reduced milk are not puddings as Westerners know them--they don't usually contain eggs. They could in theory be good, I just haven't had a good one out.  I have made a few kheers with pastas and grains where I've added coconut milk, jaggery, raisins, spices and ghee (repeat after me, ghee is good) and been quite happy--so I know it is possible.

From my experimentation, the potential within Indian dessert framework is amazing: start with the fact that milk, almond milk or coconut milk, infused with jaggery and cardamom, reduced a bit, can be sublime--shave some pistachios over top, add some warmed dates or apricot confit, vary with a tiny bit of saffron in the beginning, a pinch of ground cashew or almond added like a spice.  Sounds great, right?

The Indian snack sweets kind of like grainy marzipan or fudge--if you get beyond the sweetness--could be viewed as acceptable candy but even the best examples I’ve had have poor texture and flavor compared to a good marzipan, machined with expensive equipment.  (And we're not even talking yet about how marzipan is then used as an interesting component in candy and confectionery, enrobed in chocolate, etc.--that's another platform, another Western heirarchy.)  On their face, the Indian candies I've had have not been well done--apart from sweetness and taste.

I love Falooda--more drink than dessert--but only when I make it--with vanilla ice cream, rice noodle bits, subja seeds (weird slippery crunchiness after soaking) rose syrup and milk.  Made according to recipes, or for an Indian clientele, it's too sweet and often undrinkable.

Firni is simple and can be very pleasing--creamed rice flour in milk, thickened w/o egg and chilled--but if sugar or rose water is added with a heavy hand--to Indian taste or according to recipes--it's neither a pleasant nor fulfilling experience.  If you've ever had a great creme brulee,  with the contrast of its thin, burnt, crunchy, caramelized skin and luscious velvety (eggy) custard below-- it's really not hard to make the case that firni and other Indian puddings are not only different but also inherently inferior--inherently less interesting.

And this might be part of the problem in appreciation across dessert platforms--you see in the French model creme brulee exists as a killer dessert in and of itself and also as but one component of a larger whole--one filling among several, perhaps, with different textures and consistencies and temperatures--on the same plated dessert. So some of the problem in appreciating Indian desserts may be that the structure and complexity of Western desserts has reached such high peaks--such complex possibilities--that the Indian examples simply have yet to evolve or strive in the same way.

To sum up, I'd say the best Indian desserts I've had to date seem to be more interesting than good.  And I would be eternally grateful to Suvir and others who could draw out the differences between Indian desserts available here vs. those desserts abroad.

So let's open the floor up to kulfi (extremely charitably described as semifreddo) ras malai and gulab jamun et al.

[wingding]

It's impossible to compare techniques used in India with those in Europe.Ovens,cooking utensils,fuel sources,refrigeration-are all different,at least until recently...Some asides;I've made kulfi with whole milk from Ronnybrook,and it makes a big difference-the flavor is wonderful.Steve,have you ever tried govindobog[small grain basmati]for rice pudding?It still won't have the creaminess of arborio,but  has a nice flavor.

[Fat Guy]

It's impossible to compare techniques used in India with those in Europe. Ovens, cooking utensils, fuel sources, refrigeration . . .

They're certainly different, but I think they can be compared. I find myself in agreement with Steve Klc, though my views are hardly as evolved as his. But the overall gist -- Western desserts rule -- is something I firmly believe. I love Asian and Indian cuisines (if you saw how severely I pigged out tonight at Congee Village after a meal-sized appetizer at Fried Dumpling you'd know it's true), but try as I might I can't acquire the taste for many of those desserts. But I think Suvir's comments here and on other threads lead to the unavoidable conclusion that I'm going to need to visit India at some point in order to eat real Indian food. Then again, I disliked Asian desserts before I went to Asia, and though the Asian desserts in Asia were better than the Asian desserts in New York, I still didn't like them. India does seem to have more hidden treasures than most places, though.

[Steve Klc]

Wingding--on your first point, I politely and gently disagree.  It is very possible, and certainly revealing, to compare differences in "technique, ovens, cooking utensils, fuel sources, and refrigeration" for both Indian home and restaurant cooking, in both an historical and current context--with the French/Western model of desserts.  It just can't be done quickly, or in one paragraph.

By going beyond differences in ingredients and getting at the reasons why things are done the way they are--some will be cultural, some economic, some technological--therein lies a chance for greater understanding and appreciation.  I hope you see the value in this and continue to participate, for you obviously have more to share.

I can only share my own experience with you--that as I went back to the Middle Ages and researched how desserts were made initially in Europe and then how and why they evolved disparately as they did in countries like France and England and Italy from the 1500's through each proceeding century--it made me a stronger pastry chef in the present.

Regarding the rice--I cannot say for sure I have used govindobog, because an Indian chef got several of the non-Basmati varieties for me, but they were all white, rounder and smaller grained, and for creamier applications I much preferred these.  And yes there were subtle flavor differences, in addition to texture, but I felt these were lost once you added things like coconut, cardamom or saffron, even subtly.  So you were left with a textural--a performance--difference.

[jhlurie]

Yes carrot Halwa is one possibility.. the other would be Jalebis which are more common... but both are divine when made right... which does not happen too often in NYC restaurants at least.

No it wasn't Halwa.  It was pudding, approximately Tapioca tasting, with an orangish color.  I guess what I was asking was whether or not carrot might be pulverized or pureed into a pudding for color... which to my memory Halwa is most definitely not (a pudding, that is).

Oh. Never mind.  Steve Klc has given us enough other stuff to talk about.

BTW: this link is of interest.

[Suvir Saran]

Steve,

Thanks for your exhaustive thoughts.  Very well said, and so well reserached.  Thanks.

But again, I have to still say, who are we to think something is inferior to superior to another.  I love creme brulee, I love almost all western desserts other than any made with marzipan or peanut butter.

There are over a billion people just in India that are very proud of what they find as reliable, tasty and good desserts.  And a sizeable chunk of the upper middle class has traveled and come  back to craving the same desserts that we may find inferior.  After having lived abroad, had chefs working in their summer homes in France and London, they come back to wanting to have their share of those desserts only very few and the very talented dessert chefs in Bombay and Calcutta can make.

I do not know of one famous dessert chef from Delhi or Calcutta coming to America.  They are for the most part, married to their kitchens in India.  There are very subtle and very complex layers to many Indian desserts.  Like fruit juice being used in the cheese with which Sandesh are made in Bengal.  Almonds, pistachios, coconut, cashewnuts, saffron, chirnoji nuts, dates and lotus seeds are used in the preparation of kheer.  And the way one brings the essential oils from these ingredients into  the Kheer is by sauteeing them in Ghee.  What you Steve seem to call as a good way of treating Kheer.  So, the same is done by talented dessert chefs.

[i have made a few kheers with pastas and grains where I've added coconut milk, jaggery, raisins, spices and ghee (repeat after me, ghee is good) and been quite happy--so I know it is possible.] Quote from Steve

Steve, so the finer chefs in India whose stores one goes to in search of fine desserts have been doing what you say you do, for the last many hundred years through their generational expertise with this art form.  In fact, just last weekend, I made Sheer Khurma, a vermecelli pudding that is made with very fine vermecelli noodles and is prepared like a rice pudding and the milk is flavored with cardamom, very finely chopped dried dates, chironji nuts, equal weight of pistachio as compared with the noodles and a small amount of raisins and almonds.  These nuts and the dates are sauteed in ghee and then reduced into the milk.  I use some milk powder in the recipe. I fry the milk powder in some ghee and t hen add that into the milk.  The result, a very rich and very multifaceted pudding that makes one crave many extra bites even after feeling very full.  This was a traditional recipe with which the Mughal rulers broke their fast of Ramadan.  IN fact, this last Ramadan, I made enough of this so as to drop of containers of this pudding with all my Moslem neighbors that I was aquainted with.  I knew how rough this last fall had been for most of them.

A good firni has both rice flour and almond flour.  And only a very good dessert chef would know that.  The home chef could not even dream that one.  But, therein is the subtle play of experience and confidence.  And I cannot agree with you more about desserts being reduced to nothing with too much rose water or screw pine essence (Kewra).  It kills them completely.  One cannot tell the difference between eating dessert or biting into a pot pourri bag.

Steve and Steven, I would only say one thing here, the desserts you find in NYC are not what I waste my time or money buying even when desperately home sick or craving those Indian sweets.  These are poor quick versions of what a dessert could be.  It is like having a tarte tatin made by a young pastry chef using puff pastry and a blow torch.  The apples lack the deep flavoring that comes from having cooked in the caramel.  While to many it looks close to perfect or even better than what the books make that dessert to be, to  the trained palate, a blow torched Tarte Tatin means nothing but another mediocre try.

In Bombay, a city with very few good desserts of any refined taste, there is a boutique which sells desserts as if they are jewels.  It is amazing to go into it, just to see how seriously some Indians take fine desserts.  The desserts are showcased as if they were limoge boxes from another era and need very special handling.  Mishti Bela is the name.  And simple Indian candy like desserts, the marzipan like fudges, are sold here in variations that none of us could imagine no matter how inebriate we get.  It is marvelous seeing the refinement they have gone through.  And while most of the fudges rely on sugar and flour, at this store, they are all nut and fruit.  So the flavor is intense and lasting.  

Then there are those Meetha Parathas that are made in homes in the north of India after a simple meal.  It is nothing but chapati flour that has been stuffed with sugar, rolled like a paratha and then cooked on the skillet with ghee.  The sugar which is large crystals, breaks through the dough and caramalizes nicely.  These are then topped with Malai, cream collected from the whole milk daily.  Amazing how simple and yet how complex and refined the flavors are.  Not very different from a great french toast.  Not many today, in the west make good french toasts.  We have forgotten the art.  

And while we talk about Jaggery, I use it to sweeten pumpkin tarts and other desserts.  It works very well in adding a layer of complexity that plain sugar cannot lend to desserts.

Steve, you are a master in your knowledge, I would love to be in India with you.  So, I can take you with me to those stores that are small and yet precious, where even today, desserts are made with the respect for them as was compulsory in Mughal India where complexity had to be observed in all things.  These excessive rulers had little time for mediocrity.  Their lives were spent trying to outdo each other and what they did the day before.  I can only imagine how you will come back with much information and will be clever enough to then share with us ways in which we can see a new repertoire of Indian desserts evolve that can sate the palate of even the most fussy dessert eater.

[Simon Majumdar]

I am not about to argue with Steve on matters baking, but I do have two points

1) I think the fairest anaology between french/western desserts and indian desserts is that of modern medicine to homeopathy.  Both have the same roots but one is based more and more on scientific understanding and the other on a received oral tradition.  One is based on techniques taught in schools of learning, the other on tried and tested methods arrived at through trial and error.  Both have value, but it is unfair to compare.

2) There is a tendency in this thread and indeed on this site to treat Indian food as if it is

a) one type of cuisine.  It is as vast and varied as european cuisine.  what we are primarily talking about here is gujurati food but there are so many others

b) There is also a tendency to treat indian food as if it is a dead cuisine, one that atrophied a long time ago.  It is not.  It is living and developing as every cuisine should and does.  The problem is that little of that development is in India.  It is in London and the US where it is often dismissed as Fusion ( I abhor fusion food it is fundementally corrupt ) Again this can make comparisons odious

S