Is moderate drinking a myth?

[Ruby]

I've read that for health benefits one daily glass of wine for women is good for the heart and preventing osteoporosis and that more detracts from health benefits.

The guidelines put forth jointly by the U.S. Department of Agriculture and the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services define 'moderate drinking' as no more than one drink a day for most women, and no more than two drinks a day for most men. A standard drink is generally considered to be 12 ounces of beer, 5 ounces of wine, or 1.5 ounces of 80-proof distilled spirits. Each of these drinks contains roughly the same amount of absolute alcohol--approximately 0.5 ounce or 12 grams.

Well, I know that once I have a glass of wine, no way does it stop at 5 ounces. Probably more like two or three glasses when out with friends at dinner. Am I in the minority or do most people drink ONLY five ounces of wine or only one 12 oz. bottle of beer? This really seems like a low amount to reap the health benefits of wine and yet if you go over the 'moderate' scale, you lose the benefits. Can anyone clarify?

[tommy]

i drink a bottle of wine at a time.

these studies are somewhat absurd.  if you have your one glass of red per day at the smokey pub, surely you're defeating the purpose.

[Wilfrid]

In the UK, the medical community adopted a points system in order to get the message about sensible drinking across to the presumed dim-witted public.  Score one point for a half pint of beer, a measure of spirits (licensed premises in the UK serve tiny measures of hard liquor, by law) or a glass of wine (probably your 5oz).  The medics then prescribed a weekly point limit for men, and a lower one for women.

What were the limits?  I can't remember, I wasn't paying the slightest attention.  Suffice to say that the only people among my group of friends who were within the limits were the recovering alcoholics.  I believe the limits were even reduced at some point.

The regime Ruby describes is equally ridiculous for most drinkers - I am sure there are lots of people who don't really drink who easily stay within the limits prescribed.

I remember a discussion with my GP (family physician) about this, when I lived in London.  Along the following lines:

Dr:  (Having explained the point system)  What is your weekly intake?

Wilfrid:  (Randomly) Depends on the week.  I don't know.  Sixty?  Seventy?

Dr:  (Seriously) Do you realise you are drinking more than is good for you?

Wilfrid:  Bless me, no, that never occurred to me.  What an absolute revelation...etc, etc.

Taking Tommy's point seriously - no, Tommy, you're wrong.  Unless there's a reason to believe otherwise, it's fair to assume that other health risks (such as smoking, exposure to other peope's smoke, lack of exercise, systemic hypertension, etc) were evenly distributed across the populations of drinkers in the studies (i.e. non-drinkers, moderate drinkers, heavy drinkers, or whatever) and therefore should not skew the results.  

[tommy]

Taking Tommy's point seriously - no, Tommy, you're wrong.  Unless there's a reason to believe otherwise, it's fair to assume that other health risks (such as smoking, exposure to other peope's smoke, lack of exercise, systemic hypertension, etc) were evenly distributed across the populations of drinkers in the studies (i.e. non-drinkers, moderate drinkers, heavy drinkers, or whatever) and therefore should not skew the results.  

it's rarely fair nor prudent to assume *anything* when it comes to reading statistics or studies.  anyone who has been involved with compiling statistics or studies would surely agree.  statistics are like opinions, with numbers.

[Wilfrid]

It's epidemiology.  We'd need to look at the studies to see if there's any systematic bias among the samples - you can't just assume there is; that's exactly like assuming an experiment doesn't have a proper control.  And looking at epidemiological studies is thirsty work, believe me.

[tommy]

It's epidemiology.  We'd need to look at the studies to see if there's any systematic bias among the samples - you can't just assume there is; that's exactly like assuming an experiment doesn't have a proper control.  And looking at epidemiological studies is thirsty work, believe me.

indeed.  i assume jimmy's has volumes on epidewhosiwhatsits.  shall we say 6 pm tomorrow evening, to kick off our research?

[Wilfrid]

I think I can get away with that.  I have been coming in for some scrutiny recently.  I was asked at 8.45am today whether I would be visiting a bar tonight.  At least we are no longer living across the street from an AA meeting, which I was frequently invited to attend by my dear and thoughtful partner.

There's a good chance she's going to be on a solo window shade buying mission in Queen's tomorrow.  I think she's bound to be back late from that!

[Kristian]

There have certainly been a lot of research reports on the health benefits of moderate amounts of alcohol recently. A recent dutch research claims that a small amount of alcohol per day prevents dementia and earlier findings speak about lessening risk of cardiovascular diseases.

Unfortunately, I'm one of those people who does not reach even the healthy levels of alcohol use - I usually drink only one standard drink a week, and often less than that. I drink more only when we happen to drink wine and/or sparkling wine with our dinner, which is on rather a rare occasion (mostly celebrating a birthday or some other anniversary). Unfortunately, it does not help if I drink the whole week's healthy portion in one day...

Another point: Although it is said that one or two drinks a day is the healthy limit, there are studies that show that more than 6 bottles of beer a week may be one of the causes for throat cancer (I don't know the scientific name for that). So, it seems that you cannot win either way...

[Brija]

Am I in the minority or do most people drink ONLY five ounces of wine or only one 12 oz. bottle of beer?

I don't know about most people, but I find that one glass of wine is usually the perfect amount for me. Of course, this depends on the occasion and on how much time there is for consuming that wine. If I'm celebrating something with my loved one, we open a bottle of wine quite early in the evening and start enjoying it over dinner. Then we sit and talk for hours and share that bottle during the night. But if it's a Sunday lunch or dinner with family, I prefer to have just one glass or even less than that. Sometimes more than one glass tends to make me feel drowsy, and if it's day and I have things to do, I do not like that feeling.

In addition, even though wine and food are regarded as a combination, I've noticed that several glasses of wine is not good for my taste, it seems to dull my taste buds or something, and I do not taste the food as well as I do if I have just one or two glasses of wine. I do not understand why (I've always supposed that wine and food are supposed to enhance and/or complement each other's taste), and when I've mentioned this to other people, they do not seem to understand it, so I guess it's just my peculiar problem.

[Kristian]

I've noticed that several glasses of wine is not good for my taste, it seems to dull my taste buds or something [. . .]  I've mentioned this to other people, they do not seem to understand it, so I guess it's just my peculiar problem.

Brija: Well, who hasn't experienced the fact that alcohol dulls your senses? It may be that you are just more inclined to pay attention to what you taste than others and notice those effects more easily and earlier than your friends when you are eating.

Also, you should discuss these things with your table companions when they still have some brain activity going on - if they have already consumed more than their portion of the wine on the table, it's no wonder that they have trouble understanding you when you complain about your dull taste buds... Remember, according to your own testimony you drink less than they do!

[Brija]

Kristian, I certainly do pay more attention to the taste of the food I' eating than some people… I do not wolf down my meals…

[Gavin Jones]

The Uk government had suggested limits of 21 units per week (=21 small glasses of wine) for men and 14 for women.

They replaced these with 28 units for men 21 for women.

To predictable outcry.

As I understand it there are crudely two main themes with alcohol.

1) Cardio-vascular: basically the more you drink the better it is for you.

2) Liver, oesophagus, brain: The more you drink the worse it is for you.

The other stuff is fairly minor.

So you optimise your preferred exposure to risk from these types of damage.

i.e. you can die in your mid-50's from your cardiac event, as boring as hell through never having had a drink

or you can die in your mid-50's from your cirrhosis, as boring as hell through having drunk too much.

My own view on drinking is encapsulated in the rule that n people drink n+1 bottles of wine.

[Ruby]

As I understand it there are crudely two main themes with alcohol.

1) Cardio-vascular: basically the more you drink the better it is for you.

2) Liver, oesophagus, brain: The more you drink the worse it is for you.

The other stuff is fairly minor.

Gavin, not quite so. Health studies have also shown that too much alcohol causes hormonal levels to rise in women and high estrogen levels are linked to breast cancer. Also that alcohol causes the liver to to work overtime to filter out toxins and can cause liver damage.

Here's a good link if anyone wants to read further:

http://www.cfe.cornell.edu/bcerf....e=topic

[tommy]

Health studies have also shown that too much alcohol causes hormonal levels to rise...

drinking certainly makes me horny.  now i know why.

[Winot]

The worse thing about the units per week test is that they make the units too damned small.  Although most people remember that a unit=one glass of wine or half a pint of beer, few realise that the beer they use to calibrate this is about 3% and the wine about 10%.  I mean, come on...

[Niall]

......too much alcohol causes hormonal levels to rise in women and high estrogen levels are linked to breast cancer.

Have you had your mammogram yet tommy?

[Kristian]

The Uk government had suggested limits of 21 units per week (=21 small glasses of wine) for men and 14 for women.

They replaced these with 28 units for men 21 for women.

To predictable outcry.

Nice figures, those.

28 units per week makes four per day. If you drink these during your last meal of the day - let's say it takes two hours to drink them - an 85 kg male will achieve a nice 0.6 per mill of alcohol in his blood (depending on a couple of other factors and the trustworthiness of my Excel sheet). So, one will reach the 'no driving' state every day and still be drinking moderately...

[Thomas Secor]

Im not sure those figures work out.  4 units is 2 pints of 3% beer (which is very hard to find, unless you are drinking small beer, which is very hard to find).  Assume one hour to drink them, or if you are Brija, 4-5 hours   I am not sure how you calculated blood alcohol content, but 3% of 32 ounces (or 40 if its a standard english pint, I dont know which the English recs designate) is about the equivalent of one ounce of pure alcohol.  Hard for me to believe that would raise your blood alcohol content level to .6/mill.

[Wilfrid]

Thanks for reminding me as to what the absurd UK figures actually were.  I always suffered momentary loss of hearing when my physician told me.  A rough calculation puts me on around 65 units per week.

And I'm still thirsty - what am I doing wrong?

:wow:  :wow:  :wow:

[Gavin Jones]

I think the logic was that you were really unlikely to die directly at that (uk gov't) level from drink. You could always die indirectly - from the shame of being caught with a bottle of St. Veran rather than Montrachet, say - or run over as you stagger home from the pub.

I think around 60-65 units pw you may have chances of noticing attritional effects of drinking in competition with other ways in which your body decays.

But it is still only 1 bottle of 13% wine a day.

I'd think there are still quite a lot of us hanging on in at the 1 bottle of wine a day point on the risk/return graph.

[Wilfrid]

Yes, most of my friends are either hanging in there or are recovering alcoholics.

[Kristian]

Im not sure those figures work out. . . . I am not sure how you calculated blood alcohol content, but 3% of 32 ounces . . . is about the equivalent of one ounce of pure alcohol.  Hard for me to believe that would raise your blood alcohol content level to .6/mill.

One of the problems with my calculations is that I used centilitres and not ounces - I have no idea how many centilitres is in an ounce or vice versa. But I rechecked my calculations and I noticed that I presumed the beer to be 4.5%. I changed that around to 3% and now I'm trying to figure out how much half a pint is. I'm using small Finnish beer size, which is 0.33 litres (with the lowered alcohol content) which contains about 8 grams of alcohol.  Assuming again an 85 kg male, four half portions of this beer would raise his blood alcohol content to .4 at the best (depending on how fast he drinks the beers / glasses of wine - my silly excel sheet presumes that they are draughed instantly)...

But, as I said, the pints and ounces and stuff confuse me...