Ordering wine

[Curlz]

I am REALLY enjoying this discussion, but might I offer a synopsis on the 'homework' issue? Knowledge is power.

I really do think it's that simple. And you can apply it to anything...food, wine, medical conditions, elections, house hunting, car buying, etc., etc., etc.

[tommy]

The word "homework" is a loaded term, and folks are reading a lot into it.

yeah but glenn started it.

Jeez, so now I have to do homework before going out to eat?  :))

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Edited October 28, 2004 by tommy (log)

[glenn]

The word "homework" is a loaded term, and folks are reading a lot into it.

yeah but glenn started it.

True, and you guys drew your own inferences :))

I was actually responding to the post that preceded mine which implied (at least in my view) that people have no right to order wine based solely on a sommelier's opinion and expect something satisfactory. That point has been addressed very well by Fat Guy and tommy.

However, I don't know if I'm of the same mindset. I do have a basic knowledge having worked in the industry (and have taken part in tastings often enough) and even took one of those Learning Annex courses. But still, my knowledge is limited and I'm perfectly satisfied with that and I have no desire to further educate myself. Frankly, I don't kow or care nor will I ever care what grapes comprise Bordeaux and other such trivia. Not that there's anything wrong with it, but that stuff bores me to death. That's an extreme example, but you get the idea. Perhaps I'm one of those hapless diners that will never get the most rewarding experience due to my lack of ambition, but I'm fine with that. I also don't need to dine at 2 or 4 star restaurants to have a superb experience for the same reason. I freely admit that I do not have a refined palette and simple things make me happy. An expensive bottle of wine (100+) would be wasted on me and I suspect I'm not alone.

[tommy]

I was actually responding to the post that preceded mine which implied (at least in my view)  that people have no right to order wine based solely on a sommelier's opinion and expect something satisfactory.  That point has been addressed very well by Fat Guy and tommy.

i too framed my post with ted's in mind.

But still, my knowledge is limited and I'm perfectly satisfied with that and I have no desire to further educate myself.  Frankly, I don't kow or care nor will I ever care what grapes comprise Bordeaux and other such trivia. .

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exactly. everyone knows that knowledge is good, and no one here is suggesting otherwise. there's already so much exclusivity and intimidation in this industry. i'd just hate to see people walk away from this thread thinking they need to further their education in order to adequately function in a diner's role. as glenn suggests, you can get on just fine at whatever level you're comfortable with, *especially if the staff is properly trained and good at their jobs*. if my position or statements seem extreme it's only to make that point clear.

Edited October 28, 2004 by tommy (log)

[Really Nice!]

David,

I think the best way to sum up your article is a quote from Nubar Gulbenkian.

"The best number for a dinner party is two - myself and a damn good head waiter."

[Ted Task]

The problem with this topic, David, is that in New Jersey, roughly 85% of the better restaurants are BYOB.  Most of the liquor licenses are taken by bars and taverns.  So actually, this subject is only germaine to about 15% of the restaurant choices in New Jersey.

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Thanks for bringing this up, Menton! It was the first thought I had as well; unless your wallet permits, it's far easier to choose a great restaurant that's BYO rather than to worry about how much you're going to spend on wine and whether or not you'll like what you choose (or what is recommended).

David, one 'twist' to this or a future article might be to ask the question of how you decide what wine to take to a BYO restaurant when you don't (always) know ahead of time what you'll be eating!

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Curlz makes an interesting point, which I'll attempt to help solve.

If someone has given you a lovely bottle of BIG RED WINE, don't take it to a fish house.

When I go BYOB (seldom, here where I live), I KNOW where I'm going, and take

wines (note the plural) that will work with the style of the restaurant.

When (rare) I'm going into unknown territory, I make it a point to take SEVERAL

bottles, a mix of red and white (well, not really that much white) and hope that I can make some intelligent matchings.

One wine which I will almost always have is a bottle of Beaujolais Villages from a BETTER producer, I can make this wine work with almost anything (remember it

can/will take a light chill). Unfortunately this lovely wine has been so bastardized

by some shippers that the consumer is either afraid of looking bad or just plain scared away. Try to find Beaujolais which has not been porduced by carbonic maceration, rather cuvee traditional, and if possible from the village of Moulin a Vent, Morgon or (more delicate) Fleurie. Last but not least on this style of wine, if you are one of those who gets TERRIBLE headaches from red wine, try Beaujolais.

LOTS less hystamines, definately NO American oak.

Ted Task

[Rebel Rose]

Although it's true that many wine lists are simple and unimaginative, those lists will still have the reliable standbys, and it's very difficult, actually, to order a terrible bottle of wine in a restaurant. (Unless it's, like, Papa Segreto's unemployed son-in-law's production of Nebraska sangiovese.) So if you are not really wine knowledgeable, why not ask the servers if they have a recommendation, consider it, and then accept their suggestion or explore another choice? Wine drinking is not rocket science.

The basic rules of wine pairing are also enough to get you comfortably through most meals. It's unlikely that even a wine novice will order sauvignon blanc with steak, or syrah with sole. In the event that you don't understand the list or the wine labels, simply ask the server what the wine is like. If they don't know, ask them to ask the chef for his recommendation.

There is, however, a situation that some may encounter when ordering a fine wine by the glass, and I learned this first hand. At a lunch with friends, I ordered a glass of Bernardus chardonnay, and enjoyed it so much I ordered another one. The second glass was distinctly different and inferior. I asked the server about it, but she swore it was the same wine. But it was clearly not, nor was it corked or due to bottle variation. Later, another friend who has worked as a server for years explained to me that in some restaurants, management tells staff to substitute house wines on subsequent orders, while charging for the original wine. According to my friend, some restaurants speficially target women on this practice on the assumption that they don't know enough about wine to spot the difference. And this happened at a fine restaurant that I had always trusted. Now, I always ask that the wine be poured at the table. Problem solved.

[David Corcoran]

The problem with this topic, David, is that in New Jersey, roughly 85% of the better restaurants are BYOB.  Most of the liquor licenses are taken by bars and taverns.  So actually, this subject is only germaine to about 15% of the restaurant choices in New Jersey.

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Great point. I'm also speaking to a retailer or two for their BY0 advice.

Thanks and albest, David

[nimzo]

One of my favourite stories relates to when I was sommelier at a very famous restaurant. A very well dressed couple of gentlemen entered, sat an reoused the list of almost 1000 bins ranging from the regular everyday to Margaux 82, Henri Jayer and classic champages such as Krug 89 , LP cuvee Alexandre, and some great Salon. After a few minutes one of them called me over and asked why we didn't have any expensive wines. I told him that we stored the in a special cellar nearby and that I could fetch one if he so desired. He asked me to recommend one and gived hid order of main course I suggested a Palmer 61. He consulted his pocket guide fron his jacket pocket, mutteres sometheing avout legendary and said 'yes, wonderful.' I ran home , fished a bottle out from my own cellar . ran back and negotiated a price, around 750 pounds I seen to remember, It had to be enough to qualify as expensive of course, They enjoyed every last drop

[jsolomon]

Although it's true that many wine lists are simple and unimaginative, those lists will still have the reliable standbys, and it's very difficult, actually, to order a terrible bottle of wine in a restaurant.  (Unless it's, like, Papa Segreto's unemployed son-in-law's production of Nebraska sangiovese.) 

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Is there something fundamentallly wrong with Nebraska wines? I've never had a Nebraska sangiovese, but I've had my fair share of Nebraska plonk, and it's generally agreeable stuff. Much higher quality than Thunderbird or MD 20/20.

Which brings something to mind. When I'm in a restaurant, especially when I'm trying something new and decide to order wine, I generally try not to let unfamiliarity with a particular wine or region breed contempt. If I'm adventurous enough to try a new food, why oughtn't I try a new wine?

Just because Papa Segreto's son-in-law is unemployed does not disqualify him from possibly producing a quite tasty quaff. He could be quite skillful (and/or lucky) and people simply haven't heard of his product yet. Trying new wine with new food can be a marvelously eye opening experience.

Edited October 30, 2004 by jsolomon (log)

[Rebel Rose]

I am duly chastised. Nebraska came to mind actually because I have just finished reading Isn't It Romantic? which features a Nebraska winemaker with a Cornhuskers fetish as one of the most delightful characters. And his wine is good.

[jsolomon]

I am duly chastised.  Nebraska came to mind actually because I have just finished reading Isn't It Romantic? which features a Nebraska winemaker with a  Cornhuskers fetish as one of the most delightful characters.  And his wine is good. 

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I may have to read that book. My hometown is populated by only 10's of people different than Seldom, Nebraska. I think it's less this census cycle.

My hometown, Merna, Nebraska.

Edited October 31, 2004 by jsolomon (log)

[David Corcoran]

Many thanks to all who have posted. Your fascinating & lively responses exceeded my high expectations. I may be getting in touch with some of you individually.

Best, David

[suzilightning]

As an example of an unfortunate (to me) exchange…: this past weekend, I attended a bourdeaux tasting at a local wine shop. The person pouring was very nice. I announced that I didn’t know much about bourdeaux and would appreciate any comments about the 5 wines that were being served. I inquired about the blend of a particular wine, and I was told that it was “probably cabernet sauvignon”. At that point I knew I was on my own. I read the supplied notes.

tommy - i'll go you one better. went for a bite to eat at a local restaurant. they are advertising a wine tasting with appropriate apps on weds. 11/17. they call it a red and white tasting. asked the bartender do they have a list of which wines are being tasted. no, he said but it's the third year they have done it and it's popular. hello!! can't remember the name of the importer doing the program.

then there was the time the waiter at harlequin cafe when i asked him which wines were served by the glass did the old red or white to which i answered all. he still couldn't name them so i asked for the list. ordered a 1999 pinot grigio and he brought the wrong bottle - said they were out of the one i had ordered. then he wanted me to choose two bottles since he didn't want to take the time to go back to the cellar again - he had customers to wait on.i drank water rather than deal with him any more.

[tommy]

time the waiter at harlequin cafe when i asked him which wines were served by the glass did the old red or white to which i answered all.  he still couldn't name them so i asked for the list. 

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i love that. happens all the time. eventually after the server says "merlot, chardonnay, pinot grigio" and i start asking the very basic questions of "from where", or "which producer", they inevitably say "hold on, i'll get the list."

two questions come to mind:

1) why not just give me the list to begin with?

2) is the percentage of diners who are satisfied with the response of "umm, merlot, chardonnay, and i think pinot grigio" really that large to have this approach as the standard procedure? if i'm a server and i know dick about wine i think i'd take the easy way out and just give the diner a list.

don't get me started. again.