Eating in Kansai

[prasantrin]

Some of you may know Osho, a Japanese chain of Chinese restaurants. As I understand it Osho is quite unpopular in the Kanto area. It's cheap, divey and the food is very very greasy. However, in the Kansai area (where there are a number of universities and therefore poor university students) Osho thrives! A couple of weeks ago I noticed there was an Osho a train stop away from my apartment. Might I say, it's just as good as I remember Osho to be! The fried rice was suitably greasy, as was the fried chicken, and the gyoza was oh so good! Of course, with IBS I am now paying for eating all that grease. But it was worth the discomfort.

[Hiroyuki]

I just want to make sure:

Is is 王将 (Ohsho), ぎょうざの王将 (Gyoza No Ohsho), or something else?

[prasantrin]

I just want to make sure:

Is is 王将 (Ohsho), ぎょうざの王将 (Gyoza No Ohsho), or something else?

You're right with the kanji, and I would guess it's the gyoza no osho since IIRC they are supposed to be famous for their gyoza. My tummy is still bloated from all that grease.

[Hiroyuki]

Just to make sure, here is the website of Gyoza No Ohsho 餃子の王将:

http://www.ohsho.co.jp/contents.html

Gyoza No Ohsho reminds me of my university student years (early 1980s). I lived in Tokyo then, and Gyoza No Ohsho was attempting to extend their business to the Kanto area. I found their gyoza good and inexpensive. If I remember right, they were not so greasy, but that was more than two decades ago, and I can never be sure.

[prasantrin]

If you're willing to go to Okamoto, there's another place called Lupin that does Teppanyaki. She said there's a wide range of courses to choose from--the cheapest being about Y3000 or Y4000. She said the Y7000 course is a good value. It's in the same building as a handicraft shop called "Hand in Hand" (or something similar) but on the second floor. It's closer to Hankyu Okamoto Station, not JR (though it's still relatively close to JR Okamoto Station, too).

I haven't yet received any additional information from my sources, but I wanted to mention that I ate at Lapin today. It is a relatively small teppanyaki place--seats maybe 18-20. I had the Y2000 lunch, which included a tiny cup of pumpkin soup (a beautiful tiny cup, that is), small salad, 80 g beef filet with two dipping sauces, tiny serving of grilled yamaimo, carrot, peas, and bean sprouts, rice, tsukemono, tiny miso soup, wine jelly for dessert, and tea. While all the servings seemed small, I was quite full by the end of the meal (even before I finished, actually) and they were so beautifully presented that the smallness seemed appropriate. The beef I had was not wagyu, but I got a copy of the menu and they do have wagyu at dinnertime.

The wagyu set choices are:

Y4400 for 100g sirloin steak--70g for Y3550 (all sets include everything I mentioned I had in my lunch set)

Y4950 for 100 g filet steak (70g for Y3950)

Y5450 for 100g sirloin plus some kind of shellfish or some kind of grilled fish (maybe--my kanji reading is not so great) in addition to the rest of the set (70g for Y4650)

Y7000 for 100g filet steak plus shellfish and grilled fish in addition to the rest of the set (70g for Y6000)

Personally, I think with all the other food served the 70g portion would be fine.

They have a website here . I can also fax you the menu I have (which includes a map) if you're interested. Just pm me with your fax number. The restaurant is also very close to both Hankyu Okamoto and JR ...tsumotoyama (I don't remember the name and I can't read the first kanji). Maybe 5 minutes from either, at the most. They also had a couple of toddler-chairs for little ones so I'm guessing they're child friendly there. The staff (all three of them, including the owner/chef) were all quite nice, actually.

If I were to go again (which I'm certain I will--I liked it that much ) I would get matcha instead of tea, though. You have a choice--kocha, matcha, coffee, or iced tea. The matcha comes with a tiny okashi. Yum!

Oh, and I loved the washroom. It was beautiful!

I'll try out that place in the Oriental Hotel someone else mentioned, next. Not sure when I'll get to it, but it sure it fun trying!

BTW, this may not be the right place for this, but could this particular thread be pulled back out? I understand why all the Kansai stuff was merged, but I sort of feel this particular topic is a bit different because it asks about a specific type of food. Might be easier for people (including the original poster) to find replies.

[Yuki]

It seems like many of the restaurants mentioned in this thread are close on Monday...... better plan my schedule according to that.

Is the legal drinking age in Japan 18?

What should I eat in Kobe other than the beef? What restaurant or cafe(I love pastry) would you recommend in Kobe or Osaka.

[torakris]

It seems like many of the restaurants mentioned in this thread are close on Monday...... better plan my schedule according to that.

Is the legal drinking age in Japan 18?

What should I eat in Kobe other than the beef? What restaurant or cafe(I love pastry) would you recommend in Kobe or Osaka.

legal drinking age is 20

Many restaurants are closed one day of the week, normally on a weekday, it is always best to check before you go.

[prasantrin]

It seems like many of the restaurants mentioned in this thread are close on Monday...... better plan my schedule according to that.

Is the legal drinking age in Japan 18?

What should I eat in Kobe other than the beef? What restaurant or cafe(I love pastry) would you recommend in Kobe or Osaka.

In Kobe I would also eat Akashiyaki. It's different from Takoyaki in that the batter part is lighter and seems more eggy to me. You put sauce on yourself, and you dip it in dashi. For some reason, I prefer Akashiyaki to Takoyaki, though I have no particular reason why.

Also, there is a great cake shop called Heidi. The main shop is in Oji, but they have branches around Kobe. I know in Sannomiya they have an outlet at Sogo Department store, but I think you can only buy the cakes there, not eat in.

In Sannomiya, my favourite tea shop is Mariage Freres. Sure it's a French tea shop (the oldest in France, if I remember correctly) but I just love going there. Their tarts are OK (beautiful, but I don't think the flavour is as good as some other places) but the tea is out of this world. I love Bolero--it's my favourite iced.

If you're in the Sannomiya/Motomachi area, head for the BAL building (where Virgin Records Megastore is). Mariage Freres is on the 2nd floor of that building, and my favourite akashiyaki place is just across the covered street (and a little further down, I think). I can't remember its name, but it has blue noren (those cloth hanging things--what are they called?).

If you're up to the company of strangers, you can always PM me and I'd be happy to take you around! I'm not as familiar with Sannomiya as I used to be, but I can usually find a few things.

[Yuki]

It seems like many of the restaurants mentioned in this thread are close on Monday...... better plan my schedule according to that.

Is the legal drinking age in Japan 18?

What should I eat in Kobe other than the beef? What restaurant or cafe(I love pastry) would you recommend in Kobe or Osaka.

In Kobe I would also eat Akashiyaki. It's different from Takoyaki in that the batter part is lighter and seems more eggy to me. You put sauce on yourself, and you dip it in dashi. For some reason, I prefer Akashiyaki to Takoyaki, though I have no particular reason why.

Also, there is a great cake shop called Heidi. The main shop is in Oji, but they have branches around Kobe. I know in Sannomiya they have an outlet at Sogo Department store, but I think you can only buy the cakes there, not eat in.

In Sannomiya, my favourite tea shop is Mariage Freres. Sure it's a French tea shop (the oldest in France, if I remember correctly) but I just love going there. Their tarts are OK (beautiful, but I don't think the flavour is as good as some other places) but the tea is out of this world. I love Bolero--it's my favourite iced.

If you're in the Sannomiya/Motomachi area, head for the BAL building (where Virgin Records Megastore is). Mariage Freres is on the 2nd floor of that building, and my favourite akashiyaki place is just across the covered street (and a little further down, I think). I can't remember its name, but it has blue noren (those cloth hanging things--what are they called?).

If you're up to the company of strangers, you can always PM me and I'd be happy to take you around! I'm not as familiar with Sannomiya as I used to be, but I can usually find a few things.

Thanks for the suggestion and offer!! I will be going with my sister and she is planing most of the trip, the only input I get is where to go eat.

Even if it is just take out cake, I could always use some fat in my midnight snack. Going to gain so much weight this summer. I love going to Japan department store at night to look for midnight snack.......

[Muffin210]

Houseberg and I are headed to Japan next month -- Oct 10-18, to be exact -- staying in the Kansai region. I saw this thread and noticed it hadn't had any action recently...any new recommendations for travellers in this area?

We will be in Osaka for two nights (10/10 and 10/11) and hope to try the local udon and okonomiyaki that seems to be so highly recommended...

One night up on Koya-san (10/12) -- (guess we'll eat whatever vegetarian food the temple provides us -- what should we expect as far as Buddhist temple meals?)...

Four nights in Kyoto (10/13-10/16) -- the first in a traditional ryokan that serves meals, but the other three nights we're on our own and up for anything...

The last night (10/17) who knows where...maybe Kobe or Nara? -- something not too far from KIX, since we have to catch a flight the next day.

Would love any further food/restaurant recommendations, and of course, if anyone in the area wants to get together for a mini eGullet dinner in Kyoto when we're there, that would be a lot of fun for us!

[jrufusj]

Muffin 210:

Copied below is a piece I wrote for another group after my first brief visits to Japan about three years ago. One of my favorite places in the world to eat sushi is Sushi Iwa in Kyoto, which is referenced in the piece.

(I have done very limited editing to correct a few misspellings and awkward phrasings, but have let the green, eager, gawking tone stay.)

Enjoy your visit to Kansai. Kyoto truly is heaven on earth and I hear Nara is even better.

Jim

Last night I had the pleasure, for the second time, of spending an evening in a sushi shop in Kyoto.  I live in Bangkok but spend a fair amount of time in Seoul, which is a mere two hour flight from Osaka.  From there, it is only an hour by JR Haruka express to Kyoto, one of the most beautiful urban spots on earth.  How, then, can I resist taking monthly weekends in Kyoto?

On my first trip, I had only about 24 hours in town and arrived at the hotel after the concierge desk had closed.  Knowing absolutely nothing about Kyoto, I resigned myself to eating in the sushi shop of the Granvia Kyoto.  To my pleasant surprise, the food was a revelation. 

I've been eating sushi weekly for nigh on fifteen years, including some authentic and memorable meals in Washington, DC, Los Angeles, and San Francisco.  Still, as good as those meals were, they were as far from my first meal in Kyoto as they were from some of my more misguided attempts to find a sushi fix in various small towns in the US.

What was it that was so different?  Surprisingly enough, it was not the neta but the shari that was such a revelation.  Sure, there were elements of the toppings that were radically different from what we see in the States (or Asia ex-Japan, at least in my experience).  But what really set the sushi apart was the exquisite flavor of the rice.

The immediate and lasting impression is one of sweetness, but a sweetness completely different from the cloying flavor that we Americans are so attached to in much of our food.  I remarked to someone several hours after that meal that I could still taste the rice when I licked my lips.

Yesterday, I managed to arrive in Kyoto a little after noon and get a recommendation from the concierge.  She sent me to a small (aren't they all?) shop called Sushi-Iwa that is located cater-cornered from the Kikoku-tei Gardens.  The proprietor there, in addition to being friendly and chatty, speaks English like a native speaker.  Given that my Japanese is limited to a pretty good food vocabulary and the basics required for politeness, it provided an unexpected opportunity to talk about sushi.  When I mentioned my reaction to the rice, he explained that the western portions of Japan, of which Kyoto is a part, have a

style of shari that is sweeter than that preferred in the eastern portions, which include Tokyo.  In addition, the itamae in Japan have spent years learning the most basic elements of their art, years that seem to lend a certain texture, flavor and consistency to their rice.  What a welcome find after one and a half years eating flavorless Korean and highly variable (and long-grain) Thai sushi rice.

I am curious, those of you who know much more about Japan, its culture, and its food -- how doesthis fit with your experience, in terms of both quality versus the US and seasoning versus eastern Japan?  What other regional quirks should I be aware of and seek out?

Top notch sushi isn't cheap in Japan, but I believe that's true anywhere.  You don't always get what you pay for, but you never get what you don't pay for.  For those of you who are interested, here are the menus and tabs:

Granvia Kyoto -- Total = 13,300 yen

2 beers (small bottle)    1,500

2 pieces Akami              800

2 pieces Hirame          1,200

2 pieces Aji          uncharged

2 pieces Katzunoko        1,200

2 pieces Engawa          1,200

2 pieces Kaibashira        800

2 pieces Saba              800

2 pieces Ootoro          2,400 (ouch)

2 pieces Uni              1,600

Tax and Service Charge    1,832

The highlights were ootoro (so rich it was on the white side of pink and as pleasantly unctious as ankimo) and engawa (served plain, not with the ponzu that normally tops it in the States).  I was surprised that the engawa was the same price as the ordinary hirame.  In the States, I have always been charged a premium for engawa.

I know I made a pig of myself but, revelation that the meal was, I just couldn't make myslf stop.

Sushi-Iwa  --  Total = 9,500 yen

2 beers (large bottle)

2 pieces Hamachi

2 pieces Akami

2 pieces Iwashi

2 pieces Tako

1 piece Chuutoro

1 piece Kazunoko

1 piece Karuma-ebi

1 Natto-maki

I couldn't really list highlights here.  The akami and chuutoro were both cut from hon-maguro from the Sea of Japan and the chuutoro was as rich as anything I've been served as ootoro outside Japan.  The iwashi had a freshness and a slight brininess that reminded me directly of the sea in a way somewhat similar to the best uni.  The tako was unlike any octopus I've ever had before and better than any except maybe nakji bokkum in Seoul.  The karuma-ebi were served odori and

were as sweet as most ama-ebi I've tasted.  The head was roasted robatoyaki-style rather than fried, and reminded me of sucking crawfish heads in Louisiana, except that they were roasted not boiled.  The natto was more flavorful and no more odorous than any in the States.  (The itamae said he likes natto and gets enough Tokyo customers that it's worth stocking it, even though most locals don't

eat it.)

Like many small sushi shops, Sushi-Iwa doesn't present an itemized bill, just a total.  Although my Thai friends who scrutinize every item on every bill would be horrified, that doesn't bother me.  Anyone who has enough pride and enough concern for his customers to get the best, freshest fish isn't going to risk it all just to pad bills.  I suspect they may be adjusted down for a regular, but not up for a

stranger.  While I enjoyed my first meal (at the Granvia), the entire meal at Sushi-Iwa was a highlight film.

Other impressions:

-  I was surprised at the size of the neta at both meals.  They were much larger than I had expected, but, given the more flavorful shari, each piece was still in balance.  Question for our experts -- Is neta size a regional thing?  Even though the Granvia shop bills itself as Edo-style, the flavour of the shari and general proportions were the same as at Sushi-Iwa.  (Perhaps Edo-style just means they focus on nigiri-zushi and not battera-, oshi-, chirashi-zushi, or some other regional specialty.)

-  I have had fresh wasabi a number of times in the US, but I was reminded again how much better it is than the ubiquitous green powder -- much more mouth presence, rather than being 99% in the nose.  It seemed even better in Japan, but I don't know if that's because of Japanese mountain streams or if I imagined it because I wanted it to be better.  (Please understand that I am a Matt Kramer devotee and a terroiriste of the first order about all things to do with food and

wine.)

-  Anyone who is self-conscious about sushi etiquette should not be.  A group of Japanese men near me at the counter were fairly sousing their nigiri with murasaki, almost to the point of disintegration.  There are plenty of good reasons not to do that -- taste being the most important -- but don't ever be intimidated about what to do if there's no chopstick rest or whether you've got goma in your teeth.  Many Japanese don't have any more of a clue than we do.  Just be

polite and pay attention to what you're eating and why it has the taste and texture it does.  If you understand and respect the food you eat and the people who make and serve it, you'll seldom do anything too grossly wrong.

-  The Japanese are just as curious about what we have done with their food as we gaijin are about what the real thing tastes like.  One customer enthusiatically asked me what was in this Tiger Woods roll she heard had heard about and I was rather pleased to be able to answer honestly that I had no idea.  That drew a smile from itamae-san but disappionted looks from two thirty-something Japanese women seated next to me at the counter.

That's it for now and I'm eager to hear other peoples' reactions to their first visit to a sushi shop in Japan. 

Take care,

Jim

[Muffin210]

Well, Houseberg and I are leaving for KIX on Saturday morning...we'll arrive just in time for the latest Osakan typhoon, I'm sure!

I have been reading this thread: http://forums.egullet.org/index.php?showtopic=5369 and have jotted down some of the suggestions for Osaka and Kyoto.

The only set plan we have so far is an okonomiyaki restaurant ("Chiba") in Osaka for lunch on Monday. (Too bad we missed "Okonomiyaki day"!)

Any last minute suggestions for us? We're spending a couple nights in Osaka, four nights in Kyoto, one night up on Koya-san, and one night maybe in Kobe or Nara.

Thanks!

[torakris]

looks like you will be touching down right into the middle of typhoon #22......

sorry but I have no restaurant suggestions...

[helenjp]

Osaka is always a good place to eat, you can't go wrong! Kyoto...I haven't been there so long that I can't say too much.

One thing to try in Osaka is "kushi-katsu" - Deep fried titbits of this and that served on skewers, usually lightly breaded in very fine crumbs. Hard to describe, but better than tempura in good hands. Think light and crunchy rather than doughy and greasy.

Kobe used to be a great place for Japanese-style western food like croquettes and tonkatsu, but I don't know if that's still the case.

One of my students told me today that the Umeda shopping area (in the northern end of central Osaka) is still lots of fun. The southern shopping area, centered on Namba, used to be much more down-market, though there is an excellent kitchen goods area nearby (you'd have to ask somebody whose been there more recently to give you accurate directions, though!9.

Have a good trip!

[torakris]

http://www.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/getart...v20040910a1.htm

just ran across this article talking aout avoiding the tourist traps in Kyoto, it was very interesting.

[Muffin210]

Just got back from our 9 day trip to Kansai (Osaka, Koya-san, and Kyoto). Ate lots of great Japanese food, including okonomiyaki, yudofu, lots of matcha with sweets, and vegetarian temple meals. The highlight was probably the kaiseki meals we were served at the Kyoto ryokan.

I posted all the food/drink photos on our photo website, if anyone wants to see them: http://gallery.houseberg.com/JapanFoodOct2004

There was one dish we were served at the Buddhist temple with dinner that was a complete mystery to me -- it tasted and looked like it was made with a fig. I'd never seen or tasted anything like that before. Can anyone identify it? It's on page 5.

Even in just one short week, we were served several dishes featuring chestnuts and persimmons (since they are in season). I wish the restaurants in the US were as in tune with the seasonal offerings as the Japanese restaurants are!

Luckily, there was no natto in sight!

[jschyun]

Great pics. So jealous. *slobber*.

[Hiroyuki]

I thoroughly enjoyed the photos. Thank you for sharing.

One question: Do you like vending machines?

[melonpan]

is the salted tempura noticably salty? were the veggies salted before hand or was the batter just saltier or both? (<a href="http://gallery.houseberg.com/JapanFoodOct2004/Japan_October_2004_Group_3_324">ref</a>)

the candy displays are quite impressive.

[torakris]

great pictures!

wish I could help with that mystery food, but I am stumped, it didn't look very appetizing though....

[helenjp]

What was the name of the temple you ate at when you visited Koya, do you recall? I know there is Obaku-sect zen food in that area, but I thought it was only down towards Wakayama city, not in Koya itself.

I'll get out my temple cooking books, but it might BE a fig. Alternative guess...desalted umeboshi simmered in dashi and given some kind of treatment, or (maybe - but I wouldn't expect this till winter) a dried persimmon simmered in dashi, etc. Looks like it has an arrowroot coating or even a thin arrowroot dough around it????

[Akiko]

Muffin,

What is the Gourmet Museum in Osaka?

[Muffin210]

Thanks for all the comments on the photos!

Akiko, the "Gourmet Museum" sign was just for a food/restaurant section in one of Osaka's many maze-like underground malls...I have no idea how people manage to navigate their way around some of those places -- but at least there is a lot of good food to eat!

Helenjp, the temple we stayed at was Shojoshin-in on Mount Koya. I guess it's a subtemple technically, but they prepared the meals for all of us. I loved the creamy tofu -- so different from the tofu I've eaten in the US -- but there was another, spongy tofu that must take some getting used to. The mystery dish did seem to contain a fig, but it wasn't just a fig, unless it was some sort of fig from hell. We would have sworn it was some sort of sea creature innards if it weren't for the fact that the meals were strictly vegetarian!

melonpan, the tempura was nicely salted after cooking, so the waitress told us that we should eat it plain, without any type of sauce. It was delicious...how could anything fried and salted not be delicious, of course! -- but it wasn't just the potato-chip-like qualities that were appealing, the flavor of the vegetables within really stood out.

Hiroyuki: Actually, Chris Cognac told me I should check out the vending machines, so that's why I took so many photos of them! But I find Japanese vending machines very appealing -- so colorful and fun. And the sheer variety of things you can get from vending machines is so different from here in the US.

One funny thing I noticed was that I was repeatedly told that such-and-such dish would contain "melon", when what it actually contained was chestnut. The first time it happened, I thought that it was a simple translation error, but when it happened again (at a different place), I wondered if there were a reason -- do the words sound similar in Japanese?

Has anyone tried those expensive mushrooms? Are they worth the $400? (I guess they are still cheaper than, say, truffles, but that's a lot of money for one fungus...)

[torakris]

Thanks for all the comments on the photos! 

-- but there was another, spongy tofu that must take some getting used to.

One funny thing I noticed was that I was repeatedly told that such-and-such dish would contain "melon", when what it actually contained was chestnut.  The first time it happened, I thought that it was a simple translation error, but when it happened again (at a different place), I wondered if there were a reason -- do the words sound similar in Japanese?

Has anyone tried those expensive mushrooms?  Are they worth the $400?  (I guess they are still cheaper than, say, truffles, but that's a lot of money for one fungus...)

←

The spongy tofu you are talking about is koya-dofu, this is a speciality that was actually created by monks living on Mt. Koya centuries ago, it is a freeze dried tofu that is then reconstituted, it may take some getting used to but it is wonderful!

there is some more on it in the soy class I did on the eGCI:

http://forums.egullet.org/index.php?showtopic=44086

The Japanese word for chestnut is kuri but when it is used in sweets they use the French pronunciation of marron, thus it is easy to confuse it with melon...

$400 mushrooms, sorry but that is way out of my price range!

[Chris Cognac]

Those are some cool pics...yea vending machines baby!