Taillevent Merged topics

[Holly Moore]

We're planning dinner at  at least one top restaurant during our three days in Paris.  We're leaning towards Taillevent, but I am concerned in that no one has yet mentioned it on this august forum.

Is Tallevent the one?  If not, where?

Thanks

[Steve Plotnicki]

Holly - First, it is very difficult to get a reservation for dinner at Taillevent unless you are on a special list of customers or know someone who can get it for you. So that might eliminate it from the getgo if you are set on dinner. Lunch is much easier, and in my opinion, can be more enjoyable there. The place has the feel of a private club more than a restaurant and I've found it livelier during the day than at night. Aside from these issues, it's not a place where you are likely to be wowed by the food. Don't get me wrong, the food can be great, but the goal of the restaurant is not to be shattering any barriers. Where they do excel is in their service and their wine list. It is possible to leave feeling like the King of England. And the wine list is a treasure trove if you are the type of person looking for Premier Cru and Grand Cru Burgundys at the equivelent of retail prices. But if you are looking for a cutting edge meal with fireworks, that's not the place for you.

I noticed from your itinerary that you are spending time in the provinces. If so, may I suggest that your blow out three star meal take place in the provinces and not in Paris. Since I see you are going to be in Lyon, may I suggest you blow your wad at Troisgros, a mere hours drive from Lyon. But if you are intent on doing so in Paris and want cutting edge, the best choices are Arpege or Pierre Gagniere. I ate at L'Ambroisie earlier this year and was disappointed. And I have never been to Ducasse or Le Grand Vefour.

[Wilfrid]

I entirely concur with Steve's description of Taillevent; but if it still appeals, take heart - I did get a dinner reservation there at first attempt.  I guess I tried it a few weeks in advance.  Maybe I was luckier than I realised, but it can be done (unless things have changed in the last eighteen months or so).  I did go to the trouble of having the reservation made by a French friend.

[MarcCosnarddesCloset]

Holly, If you want me to try to make a reservation at Taillevent for you send me your preferred date and time number of party name of hotel you are staying in and I will try. I am French and often cut through the red tape for American friends. All of these restaurants have "American" quotas, although nowadays with tourism on the wane it shoudl be easier than usual. Ditto for restaurants in the provinces, especially Troisgros.

[Holly Moore]

Believe it or not Carman phoned Taillevent, requested a time and date, worked her charm and got us a reservation.

Thanks, Marc, for the offer of help.  I may take you up, if not an inconvenience, on making reservations for the high speed train between Paris CDG and Lyon and return.  It appears that if I book the reserverations anywhere but in North America we can take advantage of a substantial discount for staying over on a Saturday night.  If I book it through Rail Europe, the US agent - there is no stayover discount and higher fares to boot.  I've tried emailing them directly, but if all else fails....

(Edited by Holly Moore at 7:22 pm on Jan. 24, 2002)

[Bux]

Holly, do not use Rail Europe. Their premium is really excessive. There is no reason to use them. When you say you tried e-mailing them directly, are you referring to Rail Europe or SNCF, the French train company?

We, and most the people I know, book directly with the SNCF. You should be able to book online at sncf.com. If you can't make your reservation online, send your e-mail to the address on their site. I've been told they will answer you promptly and in English if you write in English.

You will need to use a credit card to pay for the tickets in advance. When you get to France you can go to any SNCF station and pickup your tickets by producing the exact same credit card as indentification. They will run the card as verification, but you will not be double charged. We did it last year and everything went without a hitch.

Rail Europe does not list all the trains. They don't offer the discounts and they tack on a hefty surcharge.

[Steve Plotnicki]

Holly - Hey good for you. I guess business must be slow as in the past I've heard of people who begged for dinner reservations and couldn't get them. As for the TGV, they offer a 25% discount for a Staurday night stayover. I just did it last weekend. It's easiest if you reserve yourself as you will have to buy the ticket in advance on a credit card and pick the tickets up the day of travel. The SNCF phone number is 011 338 92 35 35 35. If you don't speak French, they have people who speak English.

[Holly Moore]

Good news, bad news.

Good news.  I was able to book rail tickets through the voyages-sncf site.  Just had to pay by credit card now and pick the tickets up once in France.  For anyone's info - the fare for round trip TGV train from CDG-Paris to Lyon with a Saturday layover was 150.50 USD if booked through Rail Europe and was 90.45 EUR booked though the interent and sncf.

The bad news is that Troisgros is closed for the time we will be in France.  All the more reason to return when they are open.

One more question.  Carman remembers an article in the NY Times which showed a picture of the Chef at a 3 star establashment, wearing a "tall black hat" and "coming down a hill to inspect the bread as it was being baked."  It was somewhere in the Provinces.  Could it have been Troisgros?  If not, does anyone remember the article and the name of the restaurant?

Thanks.

[Steve Plotnicki]

Holly - That's Marc Veyrat. He's in Lake Annecy a few hours from Lyon. But it's bad news there as well as he is closed for the winter. During the wintertime he operates a restaurant in one of the ski resorts (Megeve?) But that might be too big of a schlep. But maybe not. Two choices within range of Lyon are Pic in Valence, about 100 km's south and I believe a 2 star these days, and Alain Chapel in Mionnay, 22 km's outside of Lyon which is also a 2 star I believe. I haven't been to either, though I hear that Anne-Sophie Pic is really doing a good job these days. And Robert Brown is the Alain Chapel expert here. Then there is always George Blanc in Vonnas a mere 66 km's from Lyon. But I'm not a fan of that place. But I haven't been in years and maybe someone could post an updated report. Anoher choice if you are going to Marseille is Jardin de Sens in Montpelier the most recent of the 3 star promotions by Michelin. You can take the TGV there right from Lyon, and the train from there to Marseille isn't much more than a few hours on the slow train.

[robert brown]

Holly, as much as I revered Alain Chapel, I am reluctant to tell you to dine there. His death has left a kind of pall over the house, and while one eats well, it appeared sad to me. Wait until his son becomes experienced enough to take over. That's in about six years.

I always felt that Pic was one of the lesser three-star restaurants when Jacques Pic was there. (He died young as well). Friends of mine ate there last summer and said they had a very good meal at the hands of his daughter. I would like to see you go there to get another opinion. In terms of gastronomy, I go along with Steve P. in that Troisgros is the place to go. It takes longer than it looks to get there. It's a tough 88 km by car and a slow train ride if the schedule is favorable. For just being in a nice place, I still say nothing beat Talloires on the Lake of Annecy. It's autoroute a good part of the way. I'm not a fan of Georges Blanc either. I would say Troisgros first, even if it takes up an entire day assuming you put food way above sightseeing.

[Bux]

Holly, I hope I read you wrong regarding the round trip from CDG to Lyon and back. Aren't you spending time in Paris? Shouldn't that trip start in one the city terminals in Paris?

[MarcCosnarddesCloset]

Holly,

Robert is right on the money. We filmed there 4 years ago with Chef Phillipe Jousse. Great food but a very sober and sad setting. The best part of our experience was filming in the kitchen which is unfortunately not open to guests. It is amazing with blue tiles everywhere. Like a museum. The Chef told us that they might be forced to tear out the tiles and fill it with stainless steel to comply with E.U. health regulations. It is as stunning in its traditional look as the Troisgros kitchen is modern and ergonomic. When you make it to Troisgros ask for the corner table that looks into the kitchen. Pic is supposed to be great.

Marc

[Holly Moore]

Bux -

It's all rather complicated.  Five of us are arriving in Paris Tuesday AM, including one of Carman's daughters (no slouch herself, she was Employee of the Year last year for all of Wolfgang Puck's Vegas restaurants).

Carman's daughter heads back to the U.S on Friday.  Carman and I, ditching the other two, are going with her daughter to the airport and then catching the train from CDG to Lyon.  A couple of days in Lyon, onto Megeve on Sunday, and then working our way down to Marseilles.

We've settled on Chez Fonfon for bouillabaisse and are hunting for another place for soupa de poissons.  Back to the Lyon area our last evening (Wednesday) and the high speed train to CDG early Thursday.

So far we have reservations at Taillevent, Restaurant Paul Bocuse, La Ferme de mon Père and Chez Fonfon, along with an evening at the Moulin Rouge.  Not my typical road trip.  Not a grease stain worthy joint in the bunch.

[Steve Plotnicki]

Holly - If you are going to Megeve, that's where Marc Veyrat is for the winter (the guy with the black hat.) His restaurant is called La ferme de Mon Pere and the Gault Millau rates it a stellar 19 points and puts a heart next to the score. Closed on Monday and for Tuesday lunch.

[robert brown]

Holly, you hit on the bouilliabaisse place I was trying to think of; the one Eli Zabar sent me to. It has been around 7-8 years since I went, but I recall a very simple neighborhood place in a nondescript part of Marseilles. I remember enjoying it, but too much time has passed for me to recall details. I wasn't into the dish as much as I am now, but I have every reason to believe you will be pleased. Eli is a great judge of classic dishes such as bouilliabaisse.

La Ferme de Mon Pere also gets the three stars in the Michelin. Arrive famished if his Lake of Annecy restaurant is any indication. Marc Veyrat doesn't stint on quantity. Save room for  some Vacherin d'Abondance (Abondance being a breed of cows found in the Haute-Savoie), as it is an incredible cheese you almost never find in that particular variety. I had it when his Lake of Annecy restaurant was open in February.

(Edited by robert brown at 10:21 pm on Jan. 25, 2002)

[robert brown]

Holly:  Bux and I were trying to think of the name of the famous "bouchon de Lyon" in, I believe the old city, but maybe not. Anyway, it's Cafe de la Federation. Real old and authentic. If you ordered "gras double", it might satisfy your craving for something with a lot of grease. It's a real institution, but I can't vouch for the food. Someone out there has certainly been there. A lot of us will be anxious to hear about Bocuse.

[Steve Plotnicki]

Although I've never been, I hear Cafe des Federations hasn't been the same since the woman who ran it left. If I have my stories straight, she's the woman who bought Chez Phillipe, Auberge Pyranees Cevennes in Paris and was named bistro owner of the year in many of the French guidebooks. Supposedly, a friend of mine who has been in Lyon quite often in recent years and who has eaten in most of the bouchons including Federations tells me that La Meuniere, where I ate last Saturday is the best bouchon. But you should check the New York Times archives for Jackie Frederichs article on Lyonaisse bouchons that appeared last year.

[Bux]

Holly, didn't mean to pry into your complex plans which are none of my business, but I'll sleep better knowing your're not schelpping out to CDG for no purpose.

;)

Now I have this nagging sensation that I've read about Cafe des Federations recently and the remarks were not favorable. I wonder if it was in Jacqueline Friedrich's NY Times article. I'd hate to steer you wrong either way. In any case, I've hardly eaten poorly in Lyon.

You'll find stands and sidewalk take away around the old port in Marseille. I don't recall much that appeared appetizing, but what can you expect from a guy who wasn't impressed with cheese steaks.

Steve P. mentioned Le Jardin des Sens in Montpellier. The Pourcel twins (chef/owners) have just sunk a lot of money into renovating an historic building in Avignon for their new restaurant there that's just opened. They also have a bistro in Montpellier, a restaurant in Paris and plans for something in Tokyo. They may be stretched a little thin. We've had several fine meals in Jardin des Sens, but all before it earned it's third star and before they went global. I've had one report of a terribly disorganized dinner in Montpellier, but other recent reports have been favorable for the main restaurant and perhaps less so for the bistro in Montpellier.

Montélimar is famous for its nougat. We bought some excellent soft nougat from Au Rocher de Provence the last time we went through Montélimar. It's not the most famous brand, but it appeared to be more of an artisanal product than most. If you're on the autoroute, it would be a time consuming out of the way trip and there's not much else to see that way.

[Mao]

There is only so much Haute Cuisine a soul can take without pining for something more peasanty and honest.  After Ducasse, I quite frankly got a decent craving for Pho of all strange things.  I needed a brutally honest build-your-own type meal.  So I headed alone to a place I had been once before on Avenue de Choisy called Le Kok.  I can’t honestly make any proclamations about it being the best Pho joint in Paris, but it is pretty damn good.  At the time and place it was the perfect anecdote and medicine for the high end.  I ordered a beef based Pho that came with tripe, and other variegated pieces of cow flesh, some of which were fatty and others were more muscled. The superb bowl of broth came with enormous lemon grass leaves, basil, sprouty proteins, fresh cut red chili peppers, lemon, cured sweet onions, and hoison sauce.  Add all of the above to the soup and noodle bowl as well as a healthy dose of hot chile sauce, stanky fish sauce and a dollop of sugar.  Toss and spoon like a giddy 5 year old and try not to make a mess.  Now consume a dish with 4 textures and 6 tastes all of which are completely distinct.  I have to admit that at their best Vietnamese noodles are orchestral—every part of the tongue and nose gets touched, visited and caressed until writhing—salty, hot, sweet, lemongrass, basil, fat, meats, crunch and soft noodles.  But you get to conduct the orchestral flavors instead of the chef.  Sometimes its important to be in control of the flavor orchestra.  As a beer Qingdao does not have many virtues, but it is the best anecdote for Pho.  Finish meal, go buy fresh lychee nuts in Chinese market and you have dessert.  A superb meal for a whopping 10 euros.

After Ducasse the three of us headed to Taillevent.  This was the least impressive meal of the trip, even less so than the Pho. Big name, but OK, so what?  The restaurant’s greatest feature was surely its art collection, a good $25mm worth of Miro, Braque and other early modernist painters adorned the great walls of the place.  The notion of a museum is itself a fairly apt metaphor for the meal we experienced.  The place feels more like an institution or an establishment, a standard bearer for a style of eating and meal that no longer exists in the exact same form.  Something has moved on, but not here.  

I started with some duck foie gras, marmalade of some sort and toast.  Very competent and delicious, but hardly interesting. I could have gone to Petrossian buy the same quality stuff and get some British marmelade and could have created the same dish.  I can’t remember what Vivin and his wife had for appetizers.

For main courses, I had some veal that included the chops, some sausage and some kidney.  MEAT!  The sausage was divine, but the kidneys flat and the actual “chop” had been victimized by some kind of salting spill/error and was barely edible.  Vivin had a Salmon in vinegrette that he couldn’t finish because the sauce was too potently vinegary.  We also had two half bottles of forgettable wine and dessert.

Service, I will say, was extremely gracious, but unlike Ducasse, where you felt like you had been suspended in time in some kind of gilded culinary dream, the result was simply distantly polite.  Given the choice I would not go back.

[eugenezuckoff]

What's the feeling these days about Taillevent? After years of passing the place by, I've finally made a reservation. Was doing so a mistake?

[Bux]

I doubt it although I should also note I've never been there. It's a three star restaurant with a 19/20 from GaultMillau, how can anyone not be at least curious about eating there. Time and money might be the only things that would cause one not to act on the curiosity.

In my case it's a combination of both things. I can afford to eat in restaurants in that price range, but both limited time in Paris and limited budget have prevented me from pursuing all of the three stars in Paris. Taillevent hasn't made it to the top of the list I suspect, because I'm most interested in chef driven restaurants whether they are conservative or avant garde in their approach to food. I'd also admit to being more curious about restaurants that are changing the way we look at food and dining and Taillevent seems devoted to preserving a way of dining. If I were rich though, I'd feel a duty to contribute to that cause. It's an honorable one.

Tell us where else you've eaten in Paris (or the world) and why you've liked or disliked particular restaurants and you might get some opinions on why you'd enjoy Tallevent or be better off reserving elsewhere.

[pirate]

Taillevent: In 1971 (it had 2 Michelin stars at that time) I went for dinner without a reservation on a weeknight. The owner  M. Vrinat acted as Maitre D'Hotel and when I used some French phrases insisted that we converse in French. it was a struggle. In any case I started with

a sort terrine of pike (like quenelles in texture) with a buerre blanc. I thought the sauce was not up to those I had in the provinces. On the menu was a Carr\'e d'agneau Sarladaise for 2. I said that I liked lamb but was only one person. He put in on the order  and I ended with an excellent eight ribs (charged for half) Moreover the pommes de terre Sarladaise were not just fried in goose fat but had interleaved slices of black truffle (comme il faut). I noticed that other diners were served the potatoes without truffles (pas d'autentique).   He suggested a red Beaune but I said that I wanted something "plus cors\'e" and ended up with a very fine demi-bouteille of a Gouges' Nuits "Clos des Porrets" from the magnificent 1964 vintage Spoiled by great provincial restaurants I did not return until lunch in 1984 ( now three stars) with 3 other  food and wine lovers. Two of us shared a turbotin which was well over the hill. I haven't bothered to go back since then.  Too uneven for the prices charged.

[Steve Plotnicki]

Eugene - Taillevent is the most pleasant dining experience in the world. The only other place I knew that makes you feel as important when dining there is/was the restaurant at The Connaught Hotel in London. Both of those places have a unique definition of what good service means. On my first visit to Taillevent in 1984, my wife and I left lunch feeling like we were the King & Queen of England. But while the food is top notch, if you are going for an over the top gastro-foodie experience you might be disappointed. As opposed to chef-owned restaurants, the goal at Taillevent is not to dazzle you with a myriad of dishes served from a tasting menu. It's a five course affair at best and that includes splitting one appetizer for the table. If you do go, their signature dish is a Lobster Sausage which is always quite good. The Fondant au Chocolate avec Sauce Pistache is another dish that shouldn't be missed.  A big plus about Taillevent is their great and reasonably priced wine list. The restaurant has a cellar with something like 45,000 bottles and they also operate a wine shop around the corner called Caves Taillevent. If you are the type of person who is willing to plop down a few hundred dollars for a bottle of wine, you will find that Taillevent has great choices that the restaurant sells for the same price as the wine's current retail value.  Other restaurants would probably sell the same bottles for anywhere between 50% and 200% more. And there are no shortage of important bottles on the list. You will also find that if you are at all conversant in food and wine and display any expertise in their pairing, or even display the sincere cuirosity of a novice who has set off on  path of acquiring that expertise, they will treat you like you are a long lost cousin.

[robert brown]

Vrinat didn't treat me like a long lost cousin. Because his wine shop, Les Caves Taillevent,shabbily packed a case of wine and put it into the post office system for delivery to me in Nice, one of the bottles broke in transit. I wrote Vrinat a letter expressing my dismay about sending expensive wine badly packaged and through the mail.

I proposed to him that rather than reimburse me, he put me on the list of customers who share in his allottment of white Burgundy from Coche-Dury. Not only did he agree to allow me to order some of this hard-to-obtain wine, but also to give nme a store credit for the bottle I lost. After two years and three e-mail reminders, I am still awaiting the Coche-Dury offer.

I can readily concur with Bux and Steve that dining at Taillevent isn't where it's at these days as for as the die-hards are concerned. But as I haven't eaten there since a few years after Pirate's first meal, who am I to say what kind of meal you would get? However, nothing I have heard or read contradicts Steve's accurate portrayal.

[eugenezuckoff]

Thank you, Bux, Robert, Steve for your responses. I suppose my problem is that I usually make reservations so far in advance that I have time to ferret out every review ever done, then worry. While I've been to other three star restaurants (Ambroisis was wonderful, Robuchon was dissapointing except for the salad, Georges Blanc was, well, I can't really remember, etcetera) my wife hasn't. I guess my question really should have been, Would someone who's never been to a three star restaurant be disappointed by Taillevent?

    The thing is that the place has always seemed more like an institution than a restaurant; chefs come in with two stars, and then are apparently lent a third until their (inevitable) departure. I've probably avoided the place because it seems like the emperor's new clothes.

    Thanks for the insight. I'll ask M. Vrinat about your wine, Robert, while we're there.