"Make Them Pay"

[sdelgato]

again I wonder how something so bad made it past the editor's. What is really astonishing is they will not comment on it. He (author) sent me a cryptic response saying all would be revealed in the follow-up article. Nope. Oh well...

[arielle]

But then you open yourself to the customer arguing with the sommelier and "always being right".

Katie - I'm sure you would agree that if there is nothing wrong with the wine, that you wouldn't argue with the customer, just replace the bottle and then sell the refused bottle by the glass, or alternatively use it for staff education.....I'm definitely in favour of the latter, that's how I learned so much at such a young age: generous management that took staff knowledge very seriously. How else is a student who is only working to pay their school fees supposed to be a good and informed server? I certainly couldn't afford much of what I've had the chance to drink over the years.

Someone beat me to the punch. I've seen this practice a few times in my dining experience. It won't happen at many restaurants and it won't happen often. It will only happen in superb restaurants with very experienced and confident diners and then only with the kinds of wines a well heeled connoisseur might order. I think it might happen a bit more often if it weren't for the problem of the average diner screaming bloody murder about losing a sip of his precious wine. It is the ultimate service to a diner, in my opinion, but it can only be done in those very high priced restaurants with proper staff.

Bux - you are absolutely right. Actually, someone pointed out (sorry, forgot who) that many customers kick up a huge fuss if they think some waiter (because they don't know what a sommelier is! ) is stealing a sip of their wine. Only really high end restaurants with sophisticated diners (or well-versed in restaurant culture, if you like) can afford to engage in this practice. It is also true that usually only diners who are confident and knowledgable choose to speak with the sommelier, or any staff, about the wine list. It's such a shame that in many establishments the waiters don't really know very much, and neither does the management, because it 'spoils' it for the restaurants where good advice may be had. The public doesn't trust us enough.

edited for clarity

[KatieLoeb]

Katie - I'm sure you would agree that if there is nothing wrong with the wine, that you wouldn't argue with the customer, just replace the bottle and then sell the refused bottle by the glass, or alternatively use it for staff education.....I'm definitely in favour of the latter, that's how I learned so much at such a young age: generous management that took staff knowledge very seriously. How else is a student who is only working to pay their school fees supposed to be a good and informed server? I certainly couldn't afford much of what I've had the chance to drink over the years

Arielle:

No, I wouldn't argue with them and create a scene, but I'd certainly taste the wine and let them know politely that there was nothing wrong with it. Uneducated customers aren't going to learn a thing from being rewarded for not knowing a thing and thinking they can send back wine with the dismissive wave of a hand just because they don't like it. Learning proper "wine etiquette" comes from experience, and if no wine professional ever explains to the customer (or at least implies it from their tone) that it's incredibly bad form to send back perfectly good wine, then they'll continue to do so all over town, at great expense and inconveniece to each restaurant that hosts them. Additionally, although all my by-the-glass wines are available by the bottle as well, there is a small "Reserve List" of wines that are only available by the bottle, and that I usually only keep 3-6 bottles of each type in house. They tend to be more expensive than the glass wines and would be priced prohibitively by the glass, so if a customer sends back that perfectly good bottle, it pretty much goes to waste. Yes I'd try to sell it off by the glass, but it's unlikely that my clientele would pay more than $14-15 for a glass of anything. A really savvy server might be able to sell a glass or two, if we're lucky. By the next day it's been opened too long and it goes to the kitchen to make a sauce from, or goes down the drain. My staff gets to taste all the wines when a new product comes in. I always ask my wine purveyors for a sample bottle of anything I've just purchased for the first time (or when the vintage changes) and taste the staff on it. My restaurant is a small and exceedingly busy bistro, so we don't really have the need for an "on-the-floor" sommelier. That's why I train the staff to know the wines they're selling. And I spend enough hours at the restaurant that I don't need to be there until the end of dinner service 7 days a week!

[rosebud]

It appears we are getting into etiquette questions here. The ignoratti who don't KNOW if a wine is good or bad, but are control freaks who just want to show off by rejecting a perfectly good wine, make the rest of us pay the freight, vis-a-vis restaurant wines prices, are always going to be with us. Clearly, the customer shouldn't have to pay for "bad" wine, but the restaurant shouldn't have to pay, either. If everybody knew they could get free wine by rejecting what they originally ordered, no one would offer wine at all and we would be required to bring our own.

Which brings me to an incident at Brennan's in New Orleans in 1988. I was there working on a convention and my DH was able to come along for the ride. We went there on our last night and noticed a table full of cardiologists (!) there for another convention. One of them looked at the wine list and asked for another one. Apparently, he recognized the one for the "tourists" and knew there were better things on offer. The waiter looked impressed and brought another, special, wine list. DH thought it was a hoot! Why didn't WE think of that? What does it all mean?

[mnebergall]

It appears we are getting into etiquette questions here.  The ignoratti who don't KNOW if a wine is good or bad, but are control freaks who just want to show off by rejecting a perfectly good wine, make the rest of us pay the freight, vis-a-vis restaurant wines prices, are always going to be with us.  Clearly, the customer shouldn't have to pay for "bad" wine, but the restaurant shouldn't have to pay, either.  If everybody knew they could get free wine by rejecting what they originally ordered, no one would offer wine at all and we would be required to bring our own.

Which brings me to an incident at Brennan's in New Orleans in 1988.  I was there working on a convention and my DH was able to come along for the ride.  We went there on our last night and noticed a table full of cardiologists (!) there for another convention.  One of them looked at the wine list and asked for another one.  Apparently, he recognized the one for the "tourists" and knew there were better things on offer.  The waiter looked impressed and brought another, special, wine list.  DH thought it was a hoot!  Why didn't WE think of that? What does it all mean?

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What it means is that the restaurant is protecting the really good stuff from the ignoratti and the apparantly high risk that tourists will not like an expensive bottle of wine and will try to send it back as "bad." Cognoscenti, on the other had, are much less likely to send back an otherwise good bottle of wine merely because it was not what they were expecting and/or did not like it.

[Chef Shogun]

What it means is that the restaurant is protecting the really good stuff from the ignoratti and the apparantly high risk that tourists will not like an expensive bottle of wine and will try to send it back as "bad."  Cognoscenti, on the other had, are much less likely to send back an otherwise good bottle of wine merely because it was not what they were expecting and/or did not like it.

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Is there a third list for the Illuminati? Can't decide if this is a good practice or not (Ok, it's probably not, but it's at least interesting). How would you know to ask for the 'Special' menu? Will you ever be able to go to a restaurant again without wondering if there is another wine list lurking somewhere just out of reach? Soon, there will be secret signs on the menu, and secret rings with those symbols to alert the server to your enlightened status. Then there will be secret reservation lines to go with the already-existing 'real' emergency numbers, and the guy in the bathroom will fill you in on not only the scores from last nights game, but also developments in the geopolitics of the timber trade.

"Ok, that guy at three. He's been here a few times, and doesn't hit the Kendall-Jackson too hard. I think he has proven himself worth enough to learn the truth." -- Server A

"I concur, but the girl he's with...can SHE be trusted?" -- Server B

I don't know, a place would have to have some serious cajones to try this, and I mean that they're probably also trying to revive the finger bowl in contempo-casual dining. A few special bottles tucked away, off list, that the chef or sommelier might offer to you as something you may be interested in, by virtue of a pre-existing relationship, fine, but a secret list...they'd never get away with it. A reviewer would get wind of it and blow their cover, and regulars and locals who 'have been dining there for years' but never knew of the list would be offended. Does this even make good business sense? Keeping a product around, eating up space and loading your fridge system, that only a percentage of your customers would even have the opportunity to know about ordering, and even then may not?

-- Chef Fnord

[mnebergall]

Is there a third list for the Illuminati?  Can't decide if this is a good practice or not (Ok, it's probably not, but it's at least interesting).  How would you know to ask for the 'Special' menu?  Will you ever be able to go to a restaurant again without wondering if there is another wine list lurking somewhere just out of reach?  Soon, there will be secret signs on the menu, and secret rings with those symbols to alert the server to your enlightened status.  Then there will be secret reservation lines to go with the already-existing 'real' emergency numbers, and the guy in the bathroom will fill you in on not only the scores from last nights game, but also developments in the geopolitics of the timber trade. 

"Ok, that guy at three. He's been here a few times, and doesn't hit the Kendall-Jackson too hard.  I think he has proven himself worth enough to learn the truth." -- Server A

"I concur, but the girl he's with...can SHE be trusted?" -- Server B

I don't know, a place would have to have some serious cajones to try this, and I mean that they're probably also trying to revive the finger bowl in contempo-casual dining.  A few special bottles tucked away, off list, that the chef or sommelier might offer to you as something you may be interested in, by virtue of a pre-existing relationship, fine, but a secret list...they'd never get away with it.  A reviewer would get wind of it and blow their cover, and regulars and locals who 'have been dining there for years' but never knew of the list would be offended.  Does this even make good business sense?  Keeping a product around, eating up space and loading your fridge system, that only a percentage of your customers would even have the opportunity to know about ordering, and even then may not?

-- Chef Fnord

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Check out the wine list at Oceanaire. They have an extensive list printied on the back of the menu. However, they also have a separate hard-bound wine list with their "reserve" wines on it. I ate ther for several years before I realized there was another "list." It made no difference to me because I wasn't going to order anything off of the reserve lilst anyway.

[Al_Dente]

Aren't you all just talking about a "Captain's List"?

[Chef Shogun]

Check out the wine list at Oceanaire.  They have an extensive list printied on the back of the menu.  However, they also have a separate hard-bound wine list with their "reserve" wines on it.  I ate ther for several years before I realized there was another "list."  It made no difference to me because I wasn't going to order anything off of the reserve lilst anyway.

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Alright, I forgot about the reserve list. I've seen a few of those on websites of high-end establishments, and it makes sense not to give them to everybody. Veritas' alone begins on page 10 of the 60 page wine list PDF on their site, so printing and binding for each table would be silly vs. how much is ordered off it on a daily basis (Not that the occasional $25,000 magnum ever hurts). I guess the 'regular' vs. 'tourist' thing sent me in a more fun, sinister direction. Still though, there may be something to these secret wine lists....

-- C.S.

P.S. There is no lumber cabal.