British Restaurants Outside of Britain

[Simon Majumdar]

My one and only contribution to this thread

1) Steve - I have met you.  You are far too old to say "whack" it is like watching my dad dance.

2) A J Leibling's Sweet Science was the first book I brought back into my reprints programme and is the second greatest book on sports after Plimpton's Paper Lions.

I have no other comment

S

[A Balic]

My one and only contribution to this thread

What have you done with Simon, you bastard. Are you part of a Cornish/American/Feminist/Plotnicki/most-of-the-civilised-world hit squad? What are you ransom demands? If it is for less then five quid, I might consider bargining you down to three quid. If you are serious please post me and ear or something.

[Gavin Jones]

Is S. Plotnicki a relation of Fabian Plotnick a 'fictional' restaurant reviewer invented by Woody Allen?

Truth will out

[Tonyfinch]

But if you want to go on believing that scraps of game cooked with suet in a pie crust made from white flour is fine eats, go right ahead. But please excuse me whilst I hold my nose when you eat it.

Actually,Steve,that is a very disingenuous and propagandist way to assert a prejudice.

If I were trying to convince that French food "stank" I coud say thus:

Pate de Foie Gras:The artificially bloated livers of force fed ducks and geese,expanded until they are saturated in fat and then ground into a beige coloured paste.......Bleechh!

Andouilettes: Lumps of pigs intestines crammed into a bleached pigs skin casing.......yuk!

Tete De Veau:  Well work it out for yourself. And so on

On the other hand I could say:

Game Pie:Juicy chunks of wild venison haunch,braised in fresh ly made game stock, Cornish cider and herbs,encased in golden puff pastry glazed with egg yolk and served with creamy chive mash.

Exactly what would you be holding your nose at then?

[Gavin Jones]

I thought the cliche was that an Andouillette was really only good if it had a faint faecal odour - truly a gout du terroir.

Only that may have been from Simenon, a Belgian, and I can't tell whether that is acceptable opinion.

i.e. is it southern catholic wine drinking and ok

or

protestant, beer drinking, northern and not ok.

[Steve Plotnicki]

Adam-Alas, finally someone is on the right track. That's how I imagine all British cooks throughout the Victorian era acting. "What, take all that time to make it better? You must be joking." or "Did you say strain the soup? Doesn't it taste better with all those bits and bobs in it?" Or my favorite one, "If the French do it that way I'm going to do it this way." Now this is how culinary tradition is born  .

Simon-I have entitlement rights to say whack based on my being partially responsible for the popularization of the people who spoke that language in the first place. It's like George Martin's entitlement to still say the word "groovy."

Tony-Well you have taken my ribbing about game pies a bit too seriously but as long as we are disecting food custom,

Pate de Foie gras is a bastardized and poor man's version using foie gras scraps or a poor grade of foie gras. The real deal is made with entire lobes that are gently poached and then arranged into a terrine to shape it while it chills. Andouilette is sausage. And from a funky part of the animal I might add. No sausage making is a pretty sight. And Tete de Veau is just the meat off of the face of a calf that has been cooked with lots of parsley and spices, cut into cubes and formed into a rectangle for service with a sauce grebiche. But you have to give the French credit for being honest enough to call it what it really is. I mean they could have made up a name like "Top Cut" and you'd be eating calf face without knowing. But at least they are refined those French because if the Brits served a dish like that I am certain it wouldn't be anywhere as pretty. In fact, I can just here the waiter at The Dorchester Grill asking me, "Is that terrine Head On, or Head Off Sir?"

As for your Game Pie recipe, it sounds just as I thought. Like Chicken Pot Pie but with game instead. Aside from the crust, which I am sure you guys make with white flour which gives it a "pasty" texture, what is the cooking fuel you use for the game stock? Just bits of game boiled in water?

As for the taste of a game pie, I am sure it has its fans and if one is reared on those types of things, one has probably acquired a lifelong love of that type of homey and warming taste and texture. But in general, and I say this without any expertise or having done any real research, it seems to me that those types of savorys are pretty much a thing of the past. Sort of a poor man's meal in a single dish using bits of not the best quality meat in a stew setting which was made filling by the pastry. These days, when everyone has good access to fresh ingredients (there's a date to find Wilfrid,) there's not much of a need to eat that way. And whatever tradition remains is strictly cultural, like Jews continuing to eat deli, something they would never invent today if it hadn't already been invented.

Gavin-You have brought up what I think is the real engine here because it isn't only British cuisine that isn't popular anymore, it is the cuisine from all the Northen European countries. Swedish, German, Polish, Russian, etc., those cuisines which were once somewhat popular on the global dining scene have all but faded away except for the occassional ethnic restaurant in places. But is it a Northen/Southern European thing? Is it a wine growing nation/beer consuming nation thing? Is it a Catholic/Protestant thing? I can tell you that among Jews, the split between Ashkenazy cuisine (Northern) and Sephardic cuisine (southern) is a gulf as wide as the entire European continent. And while I grew up in an Ashkenazy home, and would describe the cuisine as "delicious" providing it was prepared properly, an objective look makes me conclude that Sephardic cuisine is far more complex and interesting. So can you expound more on your theory?

[A Balic]

Adam-Alas, finally someone is on the right track. That's how I imagine all British cooks throughout the Victorian era acting. "What, take all that time to make it better? You must be joking." or "Did you say strain the soup? Doesn't it taste better with all those bits and bobs in it?" Or my favorite one, "If the French do it that way I'm going to do it this way." Now this is how culinary tradition is born  .

Do you know, having done a lot of reading on the subject of food in the 19th C. one of the things that stands out is that the big names in British cooking at the time (lets call it Victorian) were female, while the French big names were male. Do you have any theories about that Plotnicki?

[Steve Plotnicki]

Adam-Too good a question to be wasted at the bottom of a thread. You should post it seperately as it would make for a good discussion.

[A Balic]

No, I think that somebody else should be sent over the top. What about Simon, I mean what has he got to loose right?

[Gavin Jones]

I too think that the historical difference between "ladies" cooking and gentlemen's gentlemen would be worth pursuing.

My earlier point, to rephrase, would be whether we preferred a scatological or an eschatological account.

[A Balic]

"gentlemen's gentlemen" are you talking about a butler or a homosexual here? I've made the mistake of confusing the two before so I just want to clarify.

[Gavin Jones]

More that of butler.

I always think of Losey's "The Servant" where Wendy Craig shows what happens when a lady comes between a gentleman and his gentleman's gentleman - as played by Dirk Bogarde.

Though you may feel this does not really clarify matters.

In there Bogarde certainly cooks "British" food - my memory fails me as to whether Wendy Craig does French.

[Steve Plotnicki]

Adam-You chicken you. Since it won't be posted now, I feel compelled to give the answer here, in this thread. You said,

"Do you know, having done a lot of reading on the subject of food in the 19th C. one of the things that stands out is that the big names in British cooking at the time (lets call it Victorian) were female, while the French big names were male. Do you have any theories about that Plotnicki?"

And in reply I have to say that's an easy one. The reason is all the men were out hunting the game for those delicious pies!

Thanks for the soft pitch down the middle of the plate that was headed directly at the fat part of the bat (all wonderful American baseball imagery.) And rest assured, that even though you tried to avoid being implicated in the answer, it is clear for all to see that your question was merely a "setup" for England getting kicked with the pointy end of the boot. And proper blame will be placed at your doorstep.

Gavin-Prior to deciding which approach, it would be good if I understood what those big words you used mean. So I consulted my Oxford-American Dicationary (Heald Colleges Edition) and blimey me but they never heard of eschatorial either.

[A Balic]

Plotnicki - you are cunning like a fox. I will have to use more camouflage on my pit-traps. For the sake of your further education though, try "eschatological" instead of "eschatorial".

What's baseball?

[Jinmyo]

I think baseball is cricket without sweaters or wickets or tongue sandwiches but with jerseys and bases and hot dogs.

[Steve Plotnicki]

Adam-Sorry for the "esca" pade but the dictionary doesn;'t list eschatological either.

[A Balic]

Get a new dictionary then. For your amusement take a look at this:

http://thirdwoe.com/et.htm

[Winot]

Adam,

That is a fantastic link.

It *must* be the team from The Onion, mustn't it?

-----

W

[Wilfrid]

My one and only contribution to this thread

1) Steve - I have met you.  You are far too old to say "whack" it is like watching my dad dance.

2) A J Leibling's Sweet Science was the first book I brought back into my reprints programme and is the second greatest book on sports after Plimpton's Paper Lions.

I have no other comment

S

Good stuff, Simon.  The Sweet Science was the first book by Liebling I read, and the Plimpton book is first rate too.

[Tonyfinch]

. But in general, and I say this without any expertise or having done any real research, it seems to me that those types of savorys are pretty much a thing of the past. Sort of a poor man's meal in a single dish using bits of not the best quality meat in a stew setting which was made filling by the pastry. These days, when everyone has good access to fresh ingredients (there's a date to find Wilfrid,) there's not much of a need to eat that way.

Steve,sometimes I wonder what you believe the vast population of the Western world are going around eating everyday.

Admittedly they're not at home making game pies-and more's the pity.My recipe,with the sauce possibly thickened with a little cream and redcurrant,would be a gourmet delight compared to what most people in Britain,the States AND DARE I SAY EVEN FRANCE,are actually consuming day in and day out-which is mostly either ready cooked junk food,or heavily processed foods from supermarkets.

The game pie,and foods like it,may not be three star  haute cuisine so beloved by you and by so many on these boards (yeah and I like it from time to time) but if they are well made with good ingredients they form a different,more everyday form of gourmet eating that we would do well to respect rather than be glad to see the back of.

Of course if its poorly made,then it stinks,but that applies to everything.

[Wilfrid]

I say this without any expertise or having done any real research

Let me help.  I am sure you are familiar with the historical connotation of the French term "pate"*, and that it signified a preparation - usually meat - encased in  pastry.  It shares the same etymological root as the English "pasty".  Today, the pastry case is usually absent, but it still possible - easy, in fact - to buy the version with pastry in French traiteurs and markets.  As you know, the French still make game pates, both with and without pastry casings - pieces of hare or rabbit, maybe some breast of game bird too, often bound with some forcemeat.  

Now, I don't know if you find French game pates, with or without pastry cases, disgusting.  I would say that British game pies are essentially the same in concept.  I would say you are likely to find a higher proportion of game meat to forcemeat than in a French pie.  You are also more likely to find a gelatin layer, flavored with wine and/or herbs, between the meat and the pie crust.  And I would hazard that the variety and quality of wild game available to an English pie-maker is superior to that available in France.  I have never made or eaten a game pie made with "scraps", and it is certainly not typical to have them made with "gravy" - they are usually eaten cold, after all.  I am sure poor peasants made them with scraps at some point in time, but so what?

If you are passing through London, you could sample a version from Fortnum & Mason's, although I admit I have found their pastry to be a little disappointing sometimes.  Home-made is better.

I have tried to be polite and informative here, and not to kvetch, but feel free to call me a knucklehead again if it helps you sleep.  

*I'll figure out how to do accents one day.

[Steve Plotnicki]

Tony-You raise a good point which is, is there such a thing as a "good" pie, whether it be your game pie or even a chicken pot pie that I'm used to eating here. And I hate to say this to you, and lots of people might disagree with me, but I think the answer is no. Meat pies are a mistake of history. They are something that came about because people couldn't afford fresh food so they did with little bits of meat in a gravy and crust. And the reason it doesn't really survive to this day is because it doesn't really taste good. Even fancy meat in a pastry crust (like Beef Wellington) hasn't survived. Meat in pastry is an old fashioned concept that doesn't need to be practiced anymore. And to the extent that it hasn't remained popular, it can only be a function of not enough people finding it good enough to ask for in the first place.

In fact, speaking of it this way, it is probably correct to say that we stopped cooking with large amounts of flour at some point. Whether it be used as a thickener, or as a pastry crust, the entire concept of flour thickening a dish or creating bulk through a crust is very much a thing of the past. And maybe that has a lot to do with British cuisine not being in fashion.

Wilfrid-Maybe I haven't been paying attention but I can think of no pastry enclosed pates in the traiteurs I frequent in France. Terrines yes. Of all different ingredients. But pastry? I will look next time but I don't think so. But you have bolstered my point in that in France the pastry is usually gone, and in England its still there.

But that makes for an interesting question that actually has to do with differences in cooking techniques relied on by the Brits and French. At some point, the French abandoned the use of flour to thicken and/or to bolster (encrusting would be bolstering) and the English continued to use flour. That the French rejected flour was the lynchpin in their lightening and modernizing their cuisine. How come the Brits didn't do similar, and make wonderful game terrines that were pastryless?

[Wilfrid]

A bit puzzled.  Obviously the English continue to use pastry when making pies, tarts, pasties and so on.  The French continue to use pastry when making that kind of stuff - I had a very appealing tourte de volaille - a pie indeed - from the market in Lille a few months ago.  They offered hare pie as well, but I had already bought a huge slice of hare terrine.  The French still encrust fruit don't they.  And then there are quiches and vol-au-vents.  And I assume you are counting out sweet dishes, because patisseries seem to be goingn quite strong in France still.  So it doesn't seem quite so cut and dried.

The English don't use pastry when making terrines or pates in the modern day sense.  Nor did they use pastry when making the English equivalents of ballotines or galantines.   So both coutnries have a tradition of some dishes with pastry, some without.

When you say "thickening", do you mean thickening sauces?  English cooks use the whole range of techniques for achieving sauces of the right consistency - including the beurre manie method, which uses flour and is of course French.

[Tonyfinch]

And to the extent that it hasn't remained popular, it can only be a function of not enough people finding it good enough to ask for in the first place.

But my point is what ARE people finding good enough to ask for in the first place? Why, Macdonalds,and Burger King and KFC and Dunkin'Donuts etc. etc. These and processed foods from supermarkets are what most people now eat day in day out.Is this "better" than the game pie?

YOU may live in a world where people eat food cooked by Ducasse and Michael Bras and Gordon Ramsey and the chappie at El Bulli but  99.999% of the population, even the French population, do not and never will.

Good,well made "artisanal" foods are still ubiquitous in France,but fast foods are making rapid inroads there too.Even if its true that people are not asking for meats cooked in pastry it does not logically follow that what they're asking for instead is culinarily superior or physically healthier.

[Jinmyo]

I find in the frozen section of the supermarkets in Ottawa: beef Wellington, Yorkshire puddings, salmon Wellington, and chicken Wellington. Plus chicken and beef pies, steak and kidney pies, Mowbray pies, tortierre. Quiche of endless variety. Salmon pastries, shrimp pastries.

So... They weren't really there?