gratuity included?!

[cafekats]

this has been a touchy subject for us at the restaurant. should we include gratuity for large parties or not? and if we do, should it be something we need to have written on the menu? or should it go as far as be mentioned when the reservation is made? it's a situation where i would like to protect our servers but also at the same time i wouldn't want to offend customers. i would also like to protect the customers from mediocre to bad service and still have to give up an 18 to 20%tip.

but then if a waiter has a large party he/she will not have too many other tables that service. if the waiter gives great service and is stuck with a "bad" tip, he/she goes home making very little(servers usually work for tips).

that's my dilemna.

[sdelgato]

no, servers ALWAYS work for tips. Not usually, always. If people (in general, not always) tipped fairly on large tables, this would not be an issue. It should be clearly labled on the menu, and if you feel the waiter has been a slack-ass, call the manager on it. You should not EVER reward a waiter for bad service, but tables of more than say 6 tend, key word being tend, to tip less than 15 percent. But any place that automatically tacks on 20 percent, (unless it is technically, spiritually and emotionally proficient) should be immediately burned to the ground just on principle.

[dougery]

I would definitely include gratuity for large parties no matter what.

Too many large parties collect funds from every individual and the server almost always gets stiffed.

I think that fine print on the bottom back of the menu and also on the bill are appropriate.

[Holly Moore]

Restaurants that impose tips for a party of six or more (except in the case of catering where the tip is negotiated up front) are more interested in avoiding hassles with employees than they are in customer hospitality.

Customers are under absolutely no obligation to tip. None. Even when the service is world class, there is no legal requirement to add a tip to the bill. Four of us run up a bill of $2000 at Daniel and I want to leave a $5 tip I can. I wouldn't. But I can.

A question to restaurateurs reading this who impose a service charge on parties of six or more. How would you handle it if I told you I was dissatisfied with the service and only wanted to leave a ten percent tip, or no tip? Would you call the police if I refused to leave the mandated service charge?

One occasion, when I have hosted a large group and noticed the service charge boiler plate at the bottom of the bill, I called the host over and explained that I would determine the size of the tip or our party would leave. The mandatory service charge was immediately waived.

[Mark Sommelier]

no, servers ALWAYS work for tips. Not usually, always. If people (in general, not always) tipped fairly on large tables, this would not be an issue. It should be clearly labled on the menu, and if you feel the waiter has been a slack-ass, call the manager on it. You should not EVER reward a waiter for bad service, but tables of more than say 6 tend, key word being tend, to tip less than 15 percent. But any place that automatically tacks on 20 percent, (unless it is technically, spiritually and emotionally proficient) should be immediately burned to the ground just on principle.

This is true. The other part that most diners don't realize is that waiters get taxed according to a percentage of their gross yearly sales. There are still many places out there that pay out their waiter's tips every night in cash. More enlightened restaurants and hotels collect all charge tips and tax them and put them in paychecks, covering the tax obligation. Stiffing a waiter costs them double: that evening and on April 15th. I believe that automatic gratuities for large parties should be stated clearly on the menu.

[dougery]

If dissatisfied with the service I think that a quality establishment would be more than happy to waive the gratuity if they were approached in an intelligent and civilized manner.

It is also our right as a patrons to NOT GO to any restaurant that charges gratuity on the bill in the first place. If you knowingly go to a restaurant that charges gratuity and don't like the fact that they do, then you should either discuss this charge with the staff prior to service or go somewhere else.

Personally, I think large groups tend to undertip the service staff at restaurants thus I think that a service charge is reasonable.

Edited July 6, 2004 by dougery (log)

[Rachel Perlow]

One occasion, when I have hosted a large group and noticed the service charge boiler plate at the bottom of the bill, I called the host over and explained that I would determine the size of the tip or our party would leave. The mandatory service charge was immediately waived.

Did you mean bottom of the menu? Because if it is on the bill, that means you already ate.

[bilrus]

chef kats - I think it would be more acceptable to do this at the Minibar, which is a more unique experience and where people might be less likely to know how to tip because most of their serving is being done by the chefs themselves. In this case, it might even make sense to do this for all diners, not just large parties (although the perception would be that the cost of the meal itself is less than a bargain). Has tipping been an issue at the Minibar?

[andiesenji]

I believe that large parties, and by this I mean parties of 8 or more, should have the gratuity added to the bill because there are some really nasty people out there.

I have been horribly embarassed when part of a very large party with several demanding people who had the server running back and forth for petty reasons. Then, after figuring what everyone owed, and collecting from everyone the guy who had started it pocketed most of what the rest of us had left for tips. I called him on it and he just turned and walked out of the restaurant leaving an eight dollar tip on an almost 300.00 check.

I walked out to the parking lot and told everyone what he had done, asked him for the money I had placed on the table for my part of the tip and he grudgingly gave it back to me then two other guys asked him also and finally he gave in and handed the handful of cash to me. I went back into restaurant with slightly more than 50.00 which, with the 8.00 gave her a 20% tip, which was fair considering the service we got. Had she been working regular tables for the time we were at the table, which was quite a long time, she would have made more than that.

Otherwise it isn't fair to servers because large parties often stay at the table far longer than regular parties and the server is cheated far too often by cheap jerks.

I often eat out on my own and I go to familiar places where I am known. I tip very well and I get excellent service. When I take a larger party to these places they bend over backwards to accomodate me because they know I will make it worth their while.

[Holly Moore]

One occasion, when I have hosted a large group and noticed the service charge boiler plate at the bottom of the bill, I called the host over and explained that I would determine the size of the tip or our party would leave.  The mandatory service charge was immediately waived.

Did you mean bottom of the menu? Because if it is on the bill, that means you already ate.

Oops. Menu. There I go, doddering again.

[Malawry]

I see no problem with putting a disclaimer on the menu. It's nice to also warn the person making the reservation, and even nicer to say something to the host when s/he arrives at the maitre d' stand. I think it is a little rude to announce the policy to the whole group at the table, though.

It takes a lot longer to coordinate the food for a party of 6 or 8 than it does for a party of 4. Because it takes longer (to order, to serve, to clear, etc), large party tables don't turn as quickly as 2- and 4-person tables. Large parties can therefore result in a loss of revenue for restaurant and server alike, especially if they come during peak times. I don't mind a restaurant's attempt to guarantee some decent income for its servers by imposing a minimal gratuity.

I do agree with Holly that it shouldn't be required--and, like him, I would argue the gratuity if I felt I needed to and would be shocked to not have it waived. However, the society we live in is set up that servers work almost exclusively for tips, and as long as we're in that economic environment I'm happy to pay a minimum gratuity when I show up with my 9 best friends in tow.

[Pan]

How do those of you who have no problem with a minimum gratuity charge for parties of, say, 6 or more feel about simply imposing a 20% (or 15%) service charge on all bills? That's what they do in Europe. But I think it's very difficult for restaurants in the U.S. to get away with that policy. Apparently, the situation in the U.S. is that large parties object to service charges less and less vociferously than smaller parties.

How does all of this shake up in Canada? I believe I recall tipping like in the U.S., and that the VAT (essentially equivalent to sales taxes in U.S. states/localities) is included but a service charge didn't seem to be.

[beans]

First, welcome to eG cafekats.

should we include gratuity for large parties or not?  and if we do, should it be something we need to have written on the menu?  or should it go as far as be mentioned when the reservation is made?

Yes, yes and yes.

We generally do not take reservations except for special events (i.e., mother's day) and for larger parties that will be dining with us. Must be six or larger in that party and a manager is required to follow up with confirming date, time, size and special menu requests. That is also when the person making these arrangements with us is advised seperate checks are not possible and an 18% gratuity will be added to the bill.

Then it is up to the server to "tag" or not to tag: present the check listing the gratuity and grand total or they can gamble it, leave it blank and see if they get a better gratuity. When I worked as a server, I never tagged my large parties and I always did better than 18%.

About taxing on the server's sales volume -- why do you suppose I never cashed a single paycheck for the entire summer? Earning $2.13 an hour barely covered the taxing of the declared tips of my income. Our bookkeeper would cancel my checks at the end of the summer and then issue one "big" one that was usually under $150.00 for my hourly earnings, after taxes. My college roomie actually had a paycheck in the negative as she went to work as a server in a New York State vacation resort area and they also deducted for room and board.

[Schneier]

The problem being solved here is waitstaff getting stiffed by large parties. The scenario: people throw money into the center of the table, and they estimate tax+tip low. And the waiter/waitress ends up with a short tip.

This doesn't always happen, but it happens often enough.

Okay, so there's a real problem and pre-calculating the tip solves it. But....

1) Is there a better way to solve this?

2) What percentage should the tip be?

I think that this is the best solution. If the service was really bad, or good, the table can always decide to overrule the default tip. But I think the default should be more like 15%, and not 17% or 18%. I don't mind paying standard tip for standard service, but I'd rather decide if a larger tip is worthwhile.

I admit there's no obvious right answer here.

Bruce

[Busboy]

Large, formal parties at fine dining establishments usually tip well, in my experience, but mid- and low-end restaurants often get ad hoc groups where a number of people can come and go over the course of the evening, with everyone throwing in "their share." This is often, if not inevitably, disasterous for the server, and tips in the low single digits are not uncommon. Ensuring that the server does not get stiffed by adding on what is usually a modest tip -- 15%, not 20% -- is a fine compromise and ensures that the servers are adequately compensated for their work. Customers who are dissatisfied should be free to take the tip up with management, but unilaterally stiffing the help is no acceptable. Likewise, since many people tip 20% (or more), they can feel free to throw a couple of bucks on top without feeling that they've been jammed up front. Obviously, the customer should be aware that the tip has been added in advance, playing the customer for double tips is grounds for being stiffed.

Pan, I think including a decent tip in every check would be a strong step in the right direction. Neither server nor diner should be forced to play gratuity roulette, enssuring that a minumum standard is observed would improve service, since servers would play fewer games and focus more effectively on doing their jobs, and leave room for either a modest additional tip in the case of exceptional service, or a word with the manager, in the case of cruddy service.

Free associating here: When I was a waiter, certain classes of individuals were assumed to be cruddy tippers: tables of women (especially secretaries at lunch), African Americans, kids, tourists and foreigners. I am certain that these stereotypes often became self-fulfilling prophesies. I wonder how a standard, included tip, would affect service for these groups, who unquestionably got, and probably still get, shafted when they go out to eat?

[Dana]

We recently took a party of 8 to a nice Kansas City Restaurant. The menu clearly stated that a gratuity of 18% would be added for parties of 8 or more. We ordered a total of 5 bottles of wine along with our dinner, a couple of salads and a couple of desserts. No one was picky or demanding, and the bill came to roughly $450. The tip was NOT added onto the check. I tipped more than 18%, just because the server was very good at her job, and I felt she deserved it after devoting most of her evening to our table. Anybody else have the gratuity stated, then not be charged?

[beans]

Anybody else have the gratuity stated, then not be charged?

See my post up thread.

[Pan]

I think it's been many years since I've been charged a percentage on a bill in the U.S. I think it's important that it be clearly understood by the customer in advance that there will be a service charge, because I recall when seeing one that I would have tipped more than the 15% service charge but felt like, if that's what they want, that's what they're going to get. Had they informed me in advance that that was the restaurant's policy, I doubt I would have irrationally felt insulted, but my feeling at the time was that they didn't trust me to be decent and therefore deserved no more than the minimum they charged me.

Edited July 6, 2004 by Pan (log)

[Holly Moore]

How about this? Restaurants pay their employees a fair wage, reflect those increased costs in their menu pricing, and then impose an absolutely no tipping policy.

Strikes me as a lot less hypocritical than an across the board service charge. Tips are "To Insure Prompt/Proper Service." But if they are automatically charged, with the guest having no say in the matter, they serve no purpose other than to lower the restaurant's labor cost and, perhaps, save some on associated taxes and fringe benefits.

I am all for tipping if it is totally my choice as to what to tip. I am totally against it if it is forced in the terms of "service charge."

That said, in Europe I accept the automatic service charge because that is the way it has always been done. And, because I am a guilt-ridden, insecure, American tourist, I always throw in some more because, well, because I am a guilt-ridden, insecure, American tourist.

[NulloModo]

I think the practice is so widespread nowadays that no one can fault a restaurant for doing it. However, you do need to clearly state that you will be doing this, and alerting the head of the party is never a bad idea either.

18 or 20% is definately too much, however. I know many people who still tip at 10% (although they are mostly my parents and grandparents generation), and 15% is the norm for service that meets expectations around here for me and all of my friends. However, it must be said that excellent service is the expectation, you don't go into any dining establishment with the idea that the waitstaff will not be attentive. I do tip far above 15% on the occasions when something extraordinary warrents it, but those situations are quite rare. So, for large parties, a tip of the standard amount of 15% seems to be fair enough, or, if in your area the amount is slightly higher or lower, whatever that amount is.

As Holly notes, you also can't expect to enforce this if any customer or group of customer wishes to tip different. You can add whatever you want to the bill, but no customer will have to pay anything that they do not agree to.

[beans]

How about this?  Restaurants pay their employees a fair wage, reflect those increased costs in their menu pricing, and then impose an absolutely no tipping policy.

I'd never get paid in salary what I earn in tips. I left the legal eagle world, corporate law department, environmental/toxic tort section wherein I had some serious responsibilities. Years ago, when I first started as a server, in three months, I earned more than I did in almost a whole year of the 9 to 5 stuff.

Again, I echo what Malawry stated above -- large parties take more time and attention with both the kitchen and waitstaff. Kitchen is a decent hourly or salaried, so they are going to earn the same amount working on large parties or table by table orders. Service staff scheduled to work the larger parties will have lower turnover which is taken into account by those that manage staff scheduling. The idea is to upsell and add on so that despite they spent most of the evening on Mr. Cooper's wife's birthday gathering, their tip is assured which could be comparable, if not more, than if that server worked another section and turned their four assigned tables over three times with the majority being all dueces/two tops. Management needs to keep relative peace among the staff, and servers, though our policy is termination to those that brag about the specifics of their own tips (fosters much ill will because there are better sections, bars and bar teams to work with), they all need to be in the same general ballpark of earnings.

There is rationale behind the restaurant for forming that mandatory tipping policy/service charge on what they deem as large parties. It isn't to rip you off, make you feel bad or to anger the guest purposefully. It is simply keeping the entire diningroom floor fair for all service staff working, elsewise they'd (and I've seen the do it) will turn around without a single word and walk out the door and never be heard from again. Staff turnover like that sucks. And word gets out among those in the biz and a problem restaurant will remain being a problem restaurant struggling to keep a decent service staff. I can pick up the Classified section of the Cleveland PD and still see the same running ads for the same restaurants in the same locations for the last couple of years, or even longer!

Edited July 6, 2004 by beans (log)

[Pan]

How about this?  Restaurants pay their employees a fair wage, reflect those increased costs in their menu pricing, and then impose an absolutely no tipping policy.

I'd never get paid in salary what I earn in tips. I left the legal eagle world, corporate law department, environmental/toxic tort section wherein I had some serious responsibilities. Years ago, when I first started as a server, in three months, I earned more than I did in almost a whole year of the 9 to 5 stuff.

Do you figure you earn more than professional waitstaff in similar European establishments? That would be interesting to know.

[beans]

Not sure about servers.

Veering a tad off topic, but sort of tangential....

On Webtender we've sort of touched on that subject, but then the subject of money/tips/earnings always leads to somebody being upset. But the few bartenders I am good friends with acrossed the pond that I keep in regular communications with have told me they'd love to take a leave of absence and work a year in the States. One, my dearest friend queneau69, noted that when he visits the States (he's my wild Northern Irishman in Belfarce) barstaff actually smile and say thank you, noticing they do some of the chitchat/pleasantry work for a tip. He told me that sadly that is not so in the European venues he's tended bar or patronised. However some of that club tipping culture is changing in the trendier places as two Lodnod barmen have told me they now work very hard to charm their guests and are thrilled when they see the results in the tip jars.

[Juanito]

More enlightened restaurants and hotels collect all charge tips and tax them and put them in paychecks, covering the tax obligation. Stiffing a waiter costs them double: that evening and on April 15th.

In practice, isn't this more than overcome by the underreporting of cash tips?

Be honest.

The IRS imputing 8% tips on sales wasn't always so; it developed as a remedy to the widespread practice of not reporting, or underreporting, tips.

Not that I blame servers for cheating the IRS, in fact, I encourage it.

If I had to bet money, I would say more servers are undertaxed on their true income, than overtaxed.

[sdelgato]

The myth that the IRS computes 8% of sales as a taxable figure is absolutely false. Tipped employees are required to claim ALL of the monies they collect. Wherever the mythical 8% figure came from I don't know but it is incorrect. Now granted no one ever does... But I will tell you when the IRS has a bead on you, lube up. They can/will be ruthless. Not that I'm speaking from experience or anything.