a "Master Class" with a famous chef in history

[balmagowry]

  Gifted Gourmet said:

Cooking for Kings .. appropos, no??

Are you deliberately trying to give me apoplexy?

Ian Kelly is a hack who knows next to nothing about Carême. 90% of his book and 95% of his play are pure invention; he has not even read Carême! Why that should give hiim the right to invent a spurious and inaccurate inner life for the man beats me. But he gets away with it, because no one knows any better.

Oh, man, I really have to get cracking on my piece about this.

[Adam Balic]

Hehehe, sucker.

Vatel was a steward no? If so his role would have involved certian types of food prep, if not actually a chef. The fish thing is apocryphal, but still amusing.

Careme and à la russe service: it would be interesting on his ideas about it and if it where ever going to catch on - obviously it doesn't suit his type of cuisine and presentation, but he was a very clever man.

[bloviatrix]

  balmagowry said:

  Gifted Gourmet said:

Cooking for Kings .. appropos, no??

Are you deliberately trying to give me apoplexy?

Ian Kelly is a hack who knows next to nothing about Carême. 90% of his book and 95% of his play are pure invention; he has not even read Carême! Why that should give hiim the right to invent a spurious and inaccurate inner life for the man beats me. But he gets away with it, because no one knows any better.

Oh, man, I really have to get cracking on my piece about this.

As soon as I saw that link, I wondered how long it would for you to fly into rage.

As someone who has witnessed Balmagowry's ire at Ian Kelly, let me warn you all -- STAY ON HER GOOD SIDE!!!

Furthermore, even I, who don't know much about Careme had problems with that production. Starting with Kelly's inability to properly crack an egg.

[Boris_A]

  balmagowry said:

As for Carême, he'd be well worth studying with (though I'm not convinced that he'd be a good teacher - still, you couldn't help learning something by working under him).

Then I'd choose Chapel. He was directly and indirectly the teacher of the most influental contemporary chefs - Ducasse, Troisgros, Maximin > Adria, Keller, Robuchon, to name just a few.

As for Carême and the service à la française - I think he was really in love of decoration. I think he found service à la russe suitable for a more familiar circle - for a royal presentation, I believe he didn't want to renounce for the "aahhs" and "oohhs" when the pièces grosses were presented.

[balmagowry]

  Adam Balic said:

Hehehe, sucker.

Yup, that's me. Hey, at least I know it.

  Quote

Vatel was a steward no? If so his role would have involved certian types of food prep, if not actually a chef.

Not really. Obviously at this late date there's no way of being sure exactly how much he participated in the kitchen, but my impression has always been that he had way too much to do elsewhere. His job was organizing all the foods and festivities, planning menus, guest lists, accommodations and seating charts, discussing with chefs, placing fireworks, etc. He'd be far too busy to touch food prep himself.

  Quote

The fish thing is apocryphal, but still amusing.

The fish thing is apocryphal? Says who? It wasn't by any means the only reason for the suicide, but Mme. de Sévigné is pretty definite about it having happened, and I've never seen a convincing argument to the contrary. If you have, I'd love to know where. What certainly was apocryphal was the story about his "inventing" Crème Chantilly.

  Quote

Careme and à la russe service: it would be interesting on his ideas about it and if it where ever going to catch on - obviously it doesn't suit his type of cuisine and presentation, but he was a very clever man.

Actually, he expresses his ideas on the subject pretty clearly in Le Maître d'hôtel français - praises it for several practical reasons, including the fact that each guest has a chance at each dish and may even get to taste it while it's hot. And he did suggest that it might well catch on, but that its time hadn't yet come. It wasn't even as incompatible as you might think with his cuisine and presentation. Sure, it meant you couldn't have all the grosses pièces on the table at once and have everyone dig in - but you still could have done a fine display of pièces montées on the table, while serving the more edible stuff the other way and - as above - ensuring that it would be the right temperature. I need to go look up some of the later Rothschild banquets to be sure about how he used this, but he was certainly much impressed with the potential it offered for improvement in the dining experience; also with the organization of the Russian kitchens, which again he tried to emulate in certain respects.

[balmagowry]

  bloviatrix said:

As soon as I saw that link, I wondered how long it would for you to fly into rage. 

Silly girl, you knew exactly how long: as long as it took to type a response the moment I saw it. And you also knew I was watching for it, and we both knew that its appearance was inevitable.

I remain convinced that there's a conspiracy here.

  Quote

As someone who has witnessed Balmagowry's ire at Ian Kelly, let me warn you all -- STAY ON HER GOOD SIDE!!!

Yeah, and honey, lemme tell you - what you witnessed that night was as nothing compared to what I exuded once I confirmed the facts and unearthed some others. When we saw that travesty of a play I hadn't yet discovered proof of Kelly's not having read Carême.

  Quote

Furthermore, even I, who don't know much about Careme had problems with that production.  Starting with Kelly's inability to properly crack an egg.

And his... no, don't even get me started.

[Adam Balic]

  balmagowry said:

  Quote

The fish thing is apocryphal, but still amusing.

The fish thing is apocryphal? Says who? It wasn't by any means the only reason for the suicide, but Mme. de Sévigné is pretty definite about it having happened, and I've never seen a convincing argument to the contrary. If you have, I'd love to know where. What certainly was apocryphal was the story about his "inventing" Crème Chantilly.

The are numerous food history type references (not at hand ) that indicate the the sequence of no fish and suicide didn't coincide. What they suggest is that this was one of may fuck ups where he was trying to prove himself a better kichen manager then Varenne.

Now that I come to think of it what is the difference between a chef and somebody that works them out and supervises their production, which is what Vatel did? If he was a steward then many cookbooks of the period were written by stewards for stewards so would Vatel be at least a steward-cook if not a chef? If a chef is somebody that actually has to get there hands dirty does this mean that Gordon Ramay is no longer a chef?

This is (maybe) Vatel's last menu BTW:

Anchovies Sevigne

Melon with Parma Ham

Lobster Quenelles With Shrimp Sauce

Leg of Lamb

Vatel Duck Saluted in Madeira Wine

Strawberry Bombe

Re: Careme - hurry up and write the book!

[Gifted Gourmet]

  Quote

Silly girl, you knew exactly how long: as long as it took to type a response the moment I saw it. And you also knew I was watching for it, and we both knew that its appearance was inevitable.

I remain convinced that there's a conspiracy here.

Ah'm just a little girl from the South, Balmagowry, and ah don't know nuttin' 'bout no Ian Kelly ....

Very abjectly sorry, not a vast Right Wing Conspiracy, simply my ignorance of your deepest and most (not well) hidden feelings about this man .. nor do I know what level your blood pressure is clocked at when his name is uttered, even sotto voce ...

Simply asked about dead chefs one might want to have a "Master Class" with .. <repentant GG shrinks off stage left>

[balmagowry]

  Adam Balic said:

  balmagowry said:

  Quote

The fish thing is apocryphal, but still amusing.

The fish thing is apocryphal? Says who? It wasn't by any means the only reason for the suicide, but Mme. de Sévigné is pretty definite about it having happened, and I've never seen a convincing argument to the contrary. If you have, I'd love to know where.

The are numerous food history type references (not at hand ) that indicate the the sequence of no fish and suicide didn't coincide. What they suggest is that this was one of may fuck ups where he was trying to prove himself a better kichen manager then Varenne.

OK, so we're not really at odds here - at least, not as to the cause of the suicide. Vatel was having an incredibly lousy run of luck professionally, and had blown a huge amount of money on the unfortunate fireworks display. Nothing he touched was going right, at least at Chantilly. I've often wondered whether the bad luck was cause or effect - if he was sufficiently depressed to begin with, he may well have been off his game in general and blowing things right and left out of some kind of pop-psych self-sabotaging impulse. If the non-arrival of the fish didn't coincide as to timing, damn, I guess we both need to haul out our historical sources, because I certainly thought it did fit, and of course Mme. de S's eyewitness account lends credence to that notion, though her propensity for dramatic license may cancel that out, I guess. Anyway, it ain't really my period, so please I am seriously interested in knowing what evidence there is on this subject one way or t'other.

  Quote

Now that I come to think of it what is the difference between a chef and somebody that works them out and supervises their production, which is what Vatel did? If he was a steward then many cookbooks of the period were written by stewards for stewards so would Vatel be at least a steward-cook if not a chef? If a chef is somebody that actually has to get there hands dirty does this mean that Gordon Ramay is no longer a chef?

Depends on how you're defining the word and what it's based on. These days it's generally short for chef de cuisine, and in that sense I maintain that that modern classification doesn't fit Vatel because so much of his job had nothing to do with the kitchen. Carême, OTOH, was absolutely a chef de cuisine, in fact in many ways that phenomenon, and the hierarchy that supports it, originated with him. In Vatel's day the division of labor was somewhat different. (You wouldn't have used the term "chef" at all back then, but if you had it'd have been short for chef de bouche, which even though it transliterates to a focus on the mouth is actually a much broader classification. And even that wouldn't necessarily apply to Vatel.) It is my impression that Vatel didn't even spend much time in the kitchen and, most importantly as regards this particular issue, didn't necessarily know anything about cooking. I'm not up on today's cast of characters, but I trust that Gordon Ramsay, whether he actually cooks or not, does at least know how. Vatel was more a régisseur, the big cheese of overall event planning to the court. He may have specified the dishes and organized the supplies, but AFAIK there's no indication that he had anything to do with the execution.

  Quote

Re: Careme - hurry up and write the book!

Write the book? I haven't even finished the article yet!

I have, however, had a little constructive chat with my agent....

[balmagowry]

  Gifted Gourmet said:

Ah'm just a little girl from the South, Balmagowry, and ah don't know nuttin' 'bout no Ian Kelly ....

Very abjectly sorry, not a vast Right Wing Conspiracy, simply my ignorance of your deepest and most (not well) hidden feelings about this man .. nor do I know what level your blood pressure is clocked at when his name is uttered, even sotto voce ...

Simply asked about dead chefs one might want to have a "Master Class" with .. <repentant GG shrinks off stage left>

Hey, I didn't say nothin' 'bout no wings! But despite all your protestations of innocence you are a wicked, wicked woman, and I don't trust you any farther than I can throw you.

As for Ian Kelly, he is a liar and a charlatan and a perverter of history, and I got the evidence to prove it. Which will only sell even more books, I'm afraid, but there's nothing to be done about that. The truth, however, will out, eventually, despite his impressive PR machine.

[Gifted Gourmet]

  balmagowry said:

Hey, I didn't say nothin' 'bout no wings! But despite all your protestations of innocence you are a wicked, wicked woman, and I don't trust you any farther than I can throw you.

Outed on eGullet! The shame of it all!! Now the world, or at least those who read eG, now knows how vile and horrendously wicked I am! don't try throwing me, balmagowry, unless you have yourself a very well-constructed truss ....

[Bouland]

I guess if one was going back into history looking for a teacher, I'd choose François Massialot, of whom very little is known outside of his cookbooks—my favorite being first published in the 16th century. Unable to locate Massialot, I'd go looking for Henri Babinski in the first few decades of the 20th century. His Gastonomie Practique is my favorite cookbook of all time.

[russ parsons]

  Gifted Gourmet said:

  russ parsons said:

point, father of 20th century cooking.

Great choice! Why would you choose him? What would you ask him to teach you??

i've been fascinated by point every since i read joseph wechsberg's piece about visiting la pyramide. i've always thought of him as the anti-careme, or the anti-escoffier who began moving cuisine away from rote dishes and manipulated garnishes (well, at least temporarily).

[balmagowry]

  Gifted Gourmet said:

  balmagowry said:

Hey, I didn't say nothin' 'bout no wings! But despite all your protestations of innocence you are a wicked, wicked woman, and I don't trust you any farther than I can throw you.

Outed on eGullet! The shame of it all!! Now the world, or at least those who read eG, now knows how vile and horrendously wicked I am! don't try throwing me, balmagowry, unless you have yourself a very well-constructed truss ....

Hoo boy - that really limits the scope of my trust, then.

BTW, though I need hardly say I'd love to hang with Carême et al, and would certainly be tempted by Massialot and even Ali-Bab; still if I had to choose one historical cook to study under I think it'd have to be Maestro Martino. Or maybe even Platina, even though he copied so much of his stuff from Martino - I kind of like his cheekiness. Main thing is, I'd like to understand for myself how those guys interpreted the rediscovered wisdom of the ancients and incorporated it into their concepts of nutrition and health, how they got from point A to point B and somehow made it all seem to spell MOTHER. It'd even be worth brushing up one's Italian and Latin....

[Jason Perlow]

I think it might be cool to take Apicius to the local supermarket, and have him cook for the evening. I bet barbecue sauce beats Garum any day of the week, as far as he is concerned.

It would be cool if they did a remake of Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure -- except have all the historical figures be culinary ones, and instead of being students at San Dimas High School, they are CIA program students. And they could cast Bourdain in George Carlin's role as Rufus.

Ted: "Wow man, this Homard en Sauce Remoulade tastes EXCELLENT!"

Bill: "Totally RIGHTEOUS, Antonin Carême!"

Antonin Carême: "Eh, what eez zees Sous Vide and French Laundry you speak of? But zees Food Processor... le Robot Coupe... che magnifique!"

Bourdain (takes drag on cigarette, then takes a swig from his bottle of Jack Daniels, and has a taste of Antonin's preparations): "Wow, this is some fucking great stuff. I've never seen such perfectly executed mother sauces, its like you fucking invented them or something. Hey, man, you wanna have a joint with me and Ruhlman, we'll go pick up Auguste Escoffier and Brillat-Savarin in the Time Machine and then we can go shave Ripert's head?"

Antonin Carême: Eh, whatever you say Monsieur Bourdain, but whatever we do, leave ze crazy Adria guy out of it, ok? That man is an imbecile! Crazy Spanish dogs!"

[balmagowry]

While they're at it, they should pick up old Grimod de la Reynière and his coffin centerpiece. In fact... the coffin should be the time machine. If this were about time traveling to any gastronomic event in history, instead of studying with a chef ditto, then dammit that's the event I'd want to attend: one of Grimod's all-singing-all-dancing funerals for himself!

[fiftydollars]

This is kind of off-topic, but I'd really like to go out to eat with Rossini. I think he could definitely teach me a few things about eating.

[Steve Ramsey]

Probably Prosper Montagne.

Started at the bottom like me, had a bit of a contrarian bent like me.

Eventually wrote the book on the matter.

You know...the book.

[Gifted Gourmet]

  Steve Ramsey said:

Probably Prosper Montagne.

Started at the bottom like me, had a bit of a contrarian bent like me.

Eventually wrote the book on the matter.

You know...the book.

Thanks, Steve Ramsey, for reminding me about Prosper Montagne .. I just re-read his bio and was reminded of his numerous contributions to the food world, many of which are books of great value to chefs and wannabe chefs.

Montagne's biography and bibliography of his works

I am especially interested in the bottom of the page:

  Quote

The ‘Larousse Gastronomique’ has gone through many editions and revisions in its time. Something I am in two minds about:

On one hand it is great to have a book that is updated and includes modern information on ingredients etc

On the other hand, should a classic like this be altered? Would we update the Bible to conform with new scientific evidence, or change George Orwell’s book just because we are now passed the year it was set in?

And you, eGulleteer, do you agree or disagree with this theory??

[Bouland]

  Gifted Gourmet said:

I am especially interested in the bottom of the page: 

  Quote

The ‘Larousse Gastronomique’ has gone through many editions and revisions in its time. Something I am in two minds about:

On one hand it is great to have a book that is updated and includes modern information on ingredients etc.

And you, eGulleteer, do you agree or disagree with this theory??

I solve the problem by using both the original from the 1930s—which has some interesting recipes—and the most recent version—which I use in both the French and English-language versions since they are often quite different. What I've found to be useless is some of the intermediate versions.

[artisanbaker]

careme although word has it that he didn't have a ounce of kindness.

nice post jperlow.

[StudentChefEclipse]

According to some sources, the first school for cookery was located in what is now Sicily. I think I would like to show up there and hang for a day or two... despite the fact that my modern sensibilities re food hygiene would probably mean I would be grossed out of existance there.

[Susan G]

Ho Chi Min. Not famous for cookery, but passionate in his pursuits, and studied in Paris with..........was it Escoffier? What was it about a chef's temperment that made him a leader of his people?

[kitwilliams]

  Gifted Gourmet said:

  russ parsons said:

point, father of 20th century cooking.

Great choice! Why would you choose him? What would you ask him to teach you??

I know you're waiting for Russ' reply, but I'd want to learn Fernand Point's original Marjolaine recipe.

I still love hearing my brother tell the tale of the dinner he and his wife had at La Pyramide on their honeymoon twenty-six years ago. Madame Point took great care with them and even after all this time, it still takes my brother about half an hour to describe the meal!

[Gifted Gourmet]

  Susan G said:

Ho Chi Min. Not famous for cookery, but passionate in his pursuits, and studied in Paris with..........was it Escoffier? What was it about a chef's temperment that made him a leader of his people?

Slight correction if you will permit me .. on Ho Chi Min:

  Quote

Parker House Hotel, 60 School St. at Tremont

Forget Faneuil Hall or Old North Church. They're ancient history. Modern revolutionaries work at the Parker House. Ho Chi Minh was a busboy; Malcolm X a waiter

a busboy? and now he has the capital of what was VietNam named after him?? Whatta world! Would have said "only in America" but that is all wrong geographically ...