Crimes Against Alcohol

[NulloModo]

Exactly. I, too, use Gordon's for cocktails where the gin won't shine through and various other high-end gins where the gin will really shine through. I mean, what's the point of making a Twentieth Century with Hendrick's or Plymouth? The whole point of most high-end gins is the subtle and delicate flavors. On the rare occasions I use a high-end gin in a non-martini cocktail, it tends to be because the high-end gin is a particularly strongly flavored one like Junìpero that can cut through the other ingredients.

Gordon's is, by the way, a perfectly good gin, and one I am proud to use in cocktails. Seems like you feel the same way.

Gin is a spirit that I find I can detect differences in, even in 'heavier' cocktails sometimes.

A Gin and tonic is absolute torture without a good gin, and you'd think the quinine would cover a lot of the subtlety.

I'm also a fan of gin and orange juice (or was) when no one is looking, and while they are rather blech with Gilby's, with Bombay Sapphire they are divine (although I will admit my glass was usually 70% gin to 30% juice).

[robyn]

I drink Beefeater's gin and diet Ocean Spray cranberry juice with a wedge of lime all the time. I think of Beefeater's as a "middle of the road" high end gin - and I use it for everything (perhaps because it's dirt cheap at Costco). Robyn

[jbonne]

A Gin and tonic is absolute torture without a good gin, and you'd think the quinine would cover a lot of the subtlety.

a G&T with a good gin -- one with distinct, well-blended aromatics (personally i vote for Sapphire, but there's room for debate) -- a good tonic (the stuff from the soda gun doesn't count), a squeeze of fresh lime and perhaps a drop of Rose's is a lovely, noble thing.

without quality on each point, it's usually a turpentine-quinine muddle best reserved for malaria prevention. this is why i usually prefer my alcohol neat.

on the broader point of booze that should never have been: Goldschlager. also those newfangled concoctions like Aftershock. and flavored brandies. the only thing worse than bad cocktails are things that are wrong all by themselves.

[beans]

on the broader point of booze that should never have been: Goldschlager. also those newfangled concoctions like Aftershock. and flavored brandies. the only thing worse than bad cocktails are things that are wrong all by themselves.

Cinnamon schnapps is wrong?

Blackberry brandy is a key ingredient in our Rum Runners.

There's nothing inherently wrong with any of them in this bartender's book.

[Chef Shogun]

on the broader point of booze that should never have been: Goldschlager. also those newfangled concoctions like Aftershock. and flavored brandies. the only thing worse than bad cocktails are things that are wrong all by themselves.

Ha! Aftershock and Goldschlager. Known in my circle of friends as a "Red and Gold". Popularly served in a split shot glass, the red Aftershock and gold Goldschlager are representative of our professional engineering fraternity's colors.

And yes, it's every bit as horrible as it sounds. I *knew* I was missing something in my opening tyrade.

--C.S.

OT GB674

[slkinsey]

Gin is a spirit that I find I can detect differences in, even in 'heavier' cocktails sometimes.

I'm not saying categorically that this is isn't true, because everyone has differing abilities to taste. But, I can tell you this: my parents are both chemists and whenever soneone suggested that they could tell the difference between, for example, Gordon's and Bombay Sapphire in an Aviation or G&T, their usual response was "why don't you put on a blindfold and let's find out." Rarely, if ever, was someone actually able to do better than chance. Of course, with certain strong-flavored gins (Junìpero and the now demised Malacca come to mind) it would be relatively easy to taste the difference.

More to the point, however, are the questions as to whether a complex cocktail is made better by using the more expensive gin and whether one is able to appreciate the subtleties of the more expensive gin in the complex cocktail. In other words, whether or not you're getting your money's worth. This is, to be sure, an easier point to make with respect to vodka, where I think it's stupid to spend money on anything more expensive than a reasonably good brand like Skyy.

[john@thebar]

About 25 years ago I was behind the stick at a rather notorious Vieux Carre late night live music club. We had just opened and there were only a handful of customers- the band didn't start until midnight. I'd just finished a shakerfull of Ramos Gin Fizz (made with Boodle's, of course) for breakfast in an effort to get into proper mindset and to coat my gullet in advance of the evening's excesses. Ah, for those long ago days of being 25 and bulletproof! But I digress... At this point a couple of silicone sisters with their managing mister as Bruce Springsteen would have described them shuffled in and up to the bar. The gentleman of leisure wanted to know if we served any of that "amarillo likker stuff". After first thinking he must have been speaking in South Molaccan, it dawned on me what he was looking for. So I pulled the bottle of di Saronna off the backbar and asked how he would like it served. He was clueless and asked me for a recommendation. At this point my evil twin manifested himself, as he did all too often in those days. I told him that the previous evening a couple of Oakland Raiders (in town to play the SuperBowl at the time) had been at the bar drinking "Nutty Redheads" and that they were the ONLY happening cocktails in San Fran clubs. Needless to say, yer man bit and I proceeded to pour and serve 3 amaretto and Bloody Mary mixes with an orange and cherry float - with a straight face, I might add. I collected for them and quickly got on the phone at the opposite end of the bar to call other mixologists around the French Quarter to brag about what I had a 6' 6" mack daddy in a lavender three piece suit and 2 of his mealtickets drinking. And while I was still on the horn, damned if he didn't give me the highsign and order another round! This time he even tipped me: 75 cents!

[Jason Perlow]

on the broader point of booze that should never have been: Goldschlager.  also those newfangled concoctions like Aftershock. and flavored brandies. the only thing worse than bad cocktails are things that are wrong all by themselves.

Ha! Aftershock and Goldschlager. Known in my circle of friends as a "Red and Gold". Popularly served in a split shot glass, the red Aftershock and gold Goldschlager are representative of our professional engineering fraternity's colors.

And yes, it's every bit as horrible as it sounds. I *knew* I was missing something in my opening tyrade.

--C.S.

OT GB674

Aftershock is just plain BAD. Its like doing shots of Cinnamon Scope.

Actually, I think Cinnamon Scope tastes better.

[Jason Perlow]

Any flavored vodkas.

And I concur -- I gasp when I hear people order Henessey and coke.  Why?  Why?  Why?

I agree with this to a point -- but I like pepper-infused vodkas, they work well in bloody marys.

Also freshly-made Honey Vodka (which is really more of a cordial than a Vodka), like the kind that is served at Firebird Restaurant in NYC (I have never been able to successfully duplicate this recipe despite multiple interrogation attempts with the bartender). Even if you never, ever eat at this restaurant, go up to the parlor sometime and have a few drinks of this stuff. Its unbeleivably addictive.

[oneidaone]

It is always a wonderful thing to enjoy a Neiman Marcus Martini in the middle of the day during a nice long lunch. Sake, vodka and garnishes of cucumber and ginger, very refreshing although not

in keeping with the traditional recipe.

On Saturday nights we have a tradition that even has etched glasses to honor the event, "C&C" or

as it is known - "Cops and Cocktails," how this ever got started I can't even remember but I do know that when I was working and if for some reason there was a problem at the store they needed

to call someone else between the hours of 7 and 8 and they all knew that. The glasses are a real

hit amongst newcomers who see the entire name across the glasses. Generally we will be drinking

vodka but you can always count on Wild Turkey 101 with ginger ale as a winner too. A hui ho.........

[Exotic Mushroom]

I guess this isn't a crime against alcohol, but it is a crime against drinking well. What is with the Jaeger fiaxation? Why is that considered even remotely acceptable for people to drink? It completely befuddles me. You might as well be ordering shots of Kaluha! Is this socially acceptable nationwide, or is it just a yay area thing?

As far as Goose and cranberry - cranberry has a stronger flavor, and I don't mix it with vodka in general, but I'm not sure why people are so down on using premium liqour for mixed drinks. I'll often order Ketel greyhounds on a hot day. I guess I save my Chopin (not a fan of Goose) for drinking neat, but I can completely tell the difference between Ketel, Stoli, Absolut, and well in a greyhound. I've had people tell me it makes no difference and I've dared them to blind tastings and I've never failed. Even when they try to pull sneaky things like putting half well and half Ketel in the drink.

I know that people say the point of vodka is that it doesn't taste like anything, but when you sit down and do vodka tastings, they all taste remarkably different to me. I think that these unique tastes totally come through in a mixed drink. Of course, a greyhound is the most mixed drink I ever order, so maybe in something like a cosmopolitain it doesn't make a difference, I wouldn't know.

[Stigand]

I guess this isn't a crime against alcohol, but it is a crime against drinking well. What is with the Jaeger fiaxation? Why is that considered even remotely acceptable for people to drink?

Too right.

It seemed really weird to me the first time I went drinking with American students. They seemed to drink two things - beer and jaegermeister. Beer I can understand: liquid bread, the staff of life, etc etc. But how did this one nasty Teutonic digestif get selected over and above every other spirit as the American college boozer's liquor of choice?

Was there some incredible campus marketing campaign once upon a time? Is it some cultural reference I missed?

(A Baffled Brit)

[jackal10]

The positively worst hangover I've had (this was student days) was a mixture of scrumpy (rough hard cider) and sweet sherry..

Most revolting drink is lager and tomato juice. Looks like vomit and tastes much the same

Guiness and blackcurrant cordial is curious. Doesn't do anything for the Guiness, but tints the foam pink

[Stigand]

The positively worst hangover I've had (this was student days) was a mixture of scrumpy (rough hard cider) and sweet sherry..

Proof that crimes against alcohol are often swiftly followed by their own punishments.

Edited July 1, 2004 by Stigand (log)

[phaelon56]

And I concur -- I gasp when I hear people order Henessey and coke. Why? Why? Why?

I don't get it either but it is a cultural thing to a significant extent. In the African-American community, E&J brandy with coke is very popular among the ladies and Hennessey rules among the men - both with and without Coke. This is of course a generalization but it's based on having a number of African-American friends and having tended bar for years at an entertainment venue where we had specific cultural mixes of crowds for particular musical artists.

I used to work with a bartender who was known to get apoplectic at the service bar when a waitron ordered a Crown Royal whiskey sour or any other desecration of good liquor. His catch phrase to describe all such evil-doers: "bimbo puke" (no gender on this one - applies to both men and women). One of our other bartenders swore that there was no way I could tell the difference between cheap whiskey and decent sour mash if I was doing shots (thrown back as shots - not sipped on ice). We did a shoot-out between Corby's blended bar whiskey and Jack Daniel's - I was wrong on three out of five.

Greatest alcohol crime witnessed: watching a woman take four packages of Sweet 'n Low sweetener and dump them into a flute of good champagne. "I like it sweet" says she "I hope you don't mind.". I do.

[Andrew Fenton]

Most revolting drink is lager and tomato juice. Looks like vomit and tastes much the same

Does anybody actually drink this, for any other reason than on a dare?

[JAZ]

What is with the Jaeger fiaxation? Why is that considered even remotely acceptable for people to drink?

But how did this one nasty Teutonic digestif get selected over and above every other spirit as the American college boozer's liquor of choice?

Was there some incredible campus marketing campaign once upon a time? Is it some cultural reference I missed?

(A Baffled Brit)

There was a huge marketing campaign for Jaegermeister about 15 years ago -- scantily clad "Jaeger" girls would visit bars, pour chilled shots, give away merchandise and in some cases stock the bar with a special Jaegermeister pouring machine. It was very successful, you have to give them credit for that -- the simple fact of chilling it down made it vastly more palatable to the average bar patron. Me? I'd just as soon drink Vick's 44. (And I like digestifs.)

[beans]

I guess this isn't a crime against alcohol, but it is a crime against drinking well. What is with the Jaeger fiaxation? Why is that considered even remotely acceptable for people to drink? It completely befuddles me. You might as well be ordering shots of Kaluha! Is this socially acceptable nationwide, or is it just a yay area thing?

Again, I don't get this judgmental thing about what others choose to drink. And before anyone gets upset by that, remember it is my job to please the guest and provide what they have requested. I'll tell you our Jäger sales outsold our well vodka last season -- a first ever. And! We are certainly not a college bar. I'm witness to many a 30-40 something year olds ordering up Jäger Bombs, Sex with Alligators and Oatmeal Cookies.

I enjoy Jägermeister. Particularlly, the non-US import variety. *HUGE* difference in taste and mouthfeel texture. I'd almost state it is nearly a different product.

I know that people say the point of vodka is that it doesn't taste like anything, but when you sit down and do vodka tastings, they all taste remarkably different to me.  I think that these unique tastes totally come through in a mixed drink. Of course, a greyhound is the most mixed drink I ever order, so maybe in something like a cosmopolitain it doesn't make a difference, I wouldn't know.

Tremendous differences in taste. Yes! A different vodka in a cosmo can be detected by me -- since my cosmos only contain Absolut Citron as a base.

Edited July 1, 2004 by beans (log)

[beans]

Most revolting drink is lager and tomato juice. Looks like vomit and tastes much the same

Does anybody actually drink this, for any other reason than on a dare?

I've had many regulars drink those instead of Bloody Marys in the early afternoon. They can't be all that bad -- such as cracking in a raw egg!

Bleh!

TYPOS

Edited July 1, 2004 by beans (log)

[Andrew Fenton]

There was a huge marketing campaign for Jaegermeister about 15 years ago

Also, Metallica was famously into Jaegermeister. Which surely didn't hurt.

[Andrew Fenton]

Again, I don't get this judgmental thing about what others choose to drink.

Hey, if you can't be judgmental about what people drink, what can you be judgmental about?

And before anyone gets upset by that, remember it is my job to please the guest and provide what they have requested.

That's another kettle of fish entirely. I'll defend to the death the right to sneer at people who order Sex on the Beach or white zinfandel. But I don't think anybody has argued that a bartender ought to criticize her patrons, at least to their face.

[beans]

Again, I don't get this judgmental thing about what others choose to drink.

Hey, if you can't be judgmental about what people drink, what can you be judgmental about?

I think I gave that up about thirty seconds into my first bartending shift when a barman failed to appear for work and I was the only one selected to open and run our humungous lower bar by myself on a rather heavy regular customer day -- a Sunday afternoon.

I just don't have the energy or interest to expend time on it because of the nature of work/getting crushed and in the weeds and it sort of carried over to even what people fill their wine glasses with, or choose to drink at social occasions. (I agree, yuk White Zin, for me; but for them, why care?)

I'm a bit bourdainish on the harsh reality of what occurs in a busy bar, with both employee and patron. Those are more like comments and/or judgments made of say the silicone wonders that work at the nextdoor strip club or the newest bimbo (male or female) that somehow got hired and doesn't know that Heineken is not a screw off cap.... I could never post the things that have happened or what has been said (even if by me) about our employees or customers. Although it would be a colourful blog of events, observations and no doubt filled with bad behaviour. But, ah, it's already been done before. Who needs another kiss and tell about the restaurant/bar biz?

edit: very bad typing day.

Edited July 1, 2004 by beans (log)

[trillium]

Again, I don't get this judgmental thing about what others choose to drink.

Hey, if you can't be judgmental about what people drink, what can you be judgmental about?

And before anyone gets upset by that, remember it is my job to please the guest and provide what they have requested.

That's another kettle of fish entirely. I'll defend to the death the right to sneer at people who order Sex on the Beach or white zinfandel. But I don't think anybody has argued that a bartender ought to criticize her patrons, at least to their face.

I heard one better then Sex on the Beach the other day, but I was too afraid to ask what was in it. Some days I just can't stand to be disillusioned any further. Humping Alligators. I kid you not...the mind boggles.

Really, what's not to get about being judgmental about what others choose to drink? Our livelihoods don't depend on being nice to people drinking the alcoholic equivalent of food at Olive Garden, so we can afford the sneering. It's a different perspective. It wouldn't be so bad if it were not for the fact that most bars seem to cater to the lowest common denominator. At least with food you usually have a range of choices and tastes in any given city.

regards,

trillium

[beans]

I suppose I find it a tad petty to sneer at another for their food or beverage choices. (read: snobbish)

Again, why care what anyone else drinks or eats? We all make our choices and I prefer not judge others. My general outlook tends to be "You're fine; I'm fine."

I don't care if so in so likes going to Olive Garden. I don't care what they drink either. It is their choices, not mine. Providing opinions about it are a bit pointless except for sharing in the fun in finding another that agrees with you.

And not every bar caters to the lowest common demonimator. I know of many that work very hard to do the opposite.

[slkinsey]

I guess this isn't a crime against alcohol, but it is a crime against drinking well. What is with the Jaeger fiaxation? Why is that considered even remotely acceptable for people to drink? It completely befuddles me. You might as well be ordering shots of Kaluha! Is this socially acceptable nationwide, or is it just a yay area thing?

Again, I don't get this judgmental thing about what others choose to drink. And before anyone gets upset by that, remember it is my job to please the guest and provide what they have requested.

Again, it's simply a difference in perspective. You are paid to not be judgmental about what your customers drink, just as a waiter is paid to not be judgmental about what his customers eat. But, that doesn't mean that one may not have an opinion about eating a well-done dry-aged porterhouse or drinking a big glass of Jaegermeister on the rocks (both of which I would characterize as misuses of good products). Indeed, I would suggest that we wouldn't have much to talk about on eGullet if we were constrained from remarking on trends having to do with what people choose to eat and drink.

I'll tell you our Jäger sales outsold our well vodka last season -- a first ever.  And!  We are certainly not a college bar.  I'm witness to many a 30-40 something year olds ordering up Jäger Bombs, Sex with Alligators and Oatmeal Cookies.

With all due respect to your clientele, these aren't exactly sophisticated drinks (Jaegermeister and Red Bull?!?) and, of course, the average 30-40 something bar patron is not exactly a sophisticated consumer of cocktails. That said, I don't have any issues with the idea of using Jaegermeister as a flavoring agent in small quantities, as one would use a bitter -- which is how most of these concoctions seem to be using it. And, in fact, that is exactly what Jaegermeister is: a bitter, like Fernet Branca or Underberg. It wasn't really designed for people to drink a big glass of the stuff. The whole point of a bitters is that you drink a little bit of the stuff to get the digestion going and settle your stomach. Then, sometime in the late 70s or early 80s a rumor developed that the herbal infusions in Jaegermeister (often claimed to contain opiates) would somehow get you extra fucked up if you drank a lot of it. Ever since then, Jaegermeister has been consumed as a regular beverage rather than a bitters. Fundamentally, there is no reason people shouldn't consume Fernet Branca, Branca Menta, Underberg, etc. exactly the same way, although I am not sure why anyone would want to. But, let's be honest here... not too many bar patrons are savoring the flavors of Jaegermeister. It's typically consumed quickly as possible as a novelty -- but primarily as an alcohol delivery system.