eG Foodblog: mongo jones - how to lose friends and annoy people

[mongo_jones]

in any case - i love mackerel...and am now inspired to butcher your interpretation.

just as long as you remember the following: if it turns out well it is because you followed directions slavishly; if it sucks it is because you didn't.

[tejon]

What Indian Food means to me: if I had to choose one cuisine to eat every day for the rest of my life, with no deviations, I'd pick Indian. There is such a rich diversity of flavors and dishes that it's hard to grow tired. Incredible seasonings and spices, the most delicious ways to prepare vegetables of all sorts, and enough addictive snacks to satisfy anyone.

Looking forward to the entertaining insanity that is sure to follow . That, and more food porn.

[mongo_jones]

i asked the question "what does indian food mean to you?" largely because i have been, for some years now, grappling with the question of my own (un-preventable) americanization, the ensuing alteration (conscious/semi-conscious/unconscious) of my relationship with, and idea of, something called "india". and in some ways i think my relationship with issues of indian cuisine in the u.s is merely a symptom of that--my investment in those debates can probably be graphed alongside my shifting negotiations of my own cultural identity. but that's enough psychobabble. now, onto other forms of babble. (none of what follows is in any way meant as a critique or indictment of anyone's answers to the question.)

from the responses so far to my question it would seem that for the most part there is a certain consensus about what indian food is. (i like the "before amma" and "after ammma" designations that docsconz and others have evoked--shows the importance of what suvir and hemant are doing; but more on this later.) in the u.s most people who encounter indian food encounter it in a particular kind of north-indian restaurant and thus their concept of what indian food is comes out of that. as it happens the average north-indian restaurant menu in the u.s is not that different from the average north-indian restaurant menu in india (i am excluding the restaurants in 5-star hotels here). the difference is that for indians in india there is obviously an experiential understanding of the difference between what has (for complex sociological reasons) become homogenized as "mughlai food" and become synonymous with "what you go to an indian restaurant to eat" and the regionally specific food that they eat at home. and regionality is very important in india: being a bengali or a khasi or a kashmiri pandit marks much more than being a new yorker or a cajun or a northern californian does.

it has become a cliche to say that india is a subcontinent--so much so that people forget that the reason it is called one is that there is a greater cultural diversity within the borders of the indian nation than there is in western europe. not only are there more than 35 officially recognized languages spoken in its states (not to mention many more distinct languages and dialects) but people in these states (and in regions and communities that don't respect recently drawn state lines) have different cultural/religious practices and often radically different food. while some indian cuisines can clearly be seen as part of the same family (with local ingredients providing the diversification in flavors) others bear little, if any, resemblance to each other (try to compare, for instance, naga and gujarati food).

now, while many indians may know this intellectually they don't always know it experientially. that is to say while oriyas and marathis both know that what they eat at home is not like the food in the local mughlai/tandoori restaurant there are very few oriyas or marathis (insert other community here) who have ever eaten each other's marathi or oriya food. in this sense the average indian in india is not so much better off than the average non-indian aficionado of indian food in the united states. indeed, one of my aunts (who along with my uncle leads a peripatetic international life) says that it is now easier to eat a variety of indian foods in london than it is in most indian cities. (the same is probably true of chinese cuisines and the san gabriel valley in los angeles county). in the u.s. some appreciation of the differences between south indian and north indian cuisine is beginning to manifest itself. but there is as yet a very limited understanding of the huge diversity within those two classifications. most americans make the mistake of equating south indian food with what is really the food of certain groups of tamil and kannada speaking brahmans (then again so do most indians)--this would be the vegetarian menu at the average udupi restaurant: dosas, idlis, vadas etc.. in reality millions and millions of south indians--from both coasts and in between--eat fish, chicken, goat, pork and beef (though rarely all these things). these ingredients are cooked up in a variety of distinct cuisines, from chettinad to andhra to hyderabadi-muslim to moplah-malayali to kodava to konkani to goan etc. which are rarely articulated in their own context outside their region in india, let alone in the united states. sure, an occasional pepper chicken chettinad or a hyderabadi biryani might show up on a menu, but rare is the restaurant that devotes its menu to a particular regional cuisine. the same exercise could be performed with every other geographic region in india.

this is not to say that this knowledge and experience cannot grow. it is, however, a slow process. and it is happening: as i have said elsewhere on egullet, one of the more interesting things about what is happening in india today is that people are leaving their home regions more and more and encountering other cultures more and more. this will lead (and has probably already led) not just to a greater knowledge of indian foods from outside home regions but a greater fusion between indian cuisines. my mother's kitchen and my own are already mini-labs of this process. it is in this context that i referenced my family's airforce background in my second post in this blog: because we lived all over india our meals have never been pure bengali meals. we grew up eating punjabi kali dal alongside bengali fish dishes and my mother's takes on tamil sambhar or hyderabadi baghara baingan. we aren't the only ones but we're still in the minority.

given this situation it becomes very difficult, or at least complicated, to talk about indian cuisine. clearly if you are going to make pronouncements about what indian cuisine is or developments in indian cuisine you need to literally know what it is you are talking about. you can't talk about "new" indian cuisine if you don't know what the implied "old" indian cuisine is. this is not to say that a new variant of indian cuisine cannot come about, or hasn' already come about in the u.s (the indo-french fusion which suvir doesn't like to think he is a part of :-) )--or in england (balti etc.) or in the other destinations of the diaspora that we forget about (guyana and the rest of the caribbean, east-africa, south africa, singapore, fiji etc. etc.); it is merely to say that whatever claims can be made for these variants need to be highly contingent. one must, in my opinion, be cautious about adopting the vocabulary of evolution. or a narrative of progress in which the culinary journey is mapped onto a geographical one--one in which "indian" food only becomes a global player by literally leaving india behind. we have to learn a certain humility; we have to learn to recognize newness in places we don't often look; we have to learn that to be truly global means to recognize that every part of the world gets to equally center the globe around them. or so i think anyway.

this hasn't been very coherent and i could go on but i'm getting tired. i do want to say though that i am not by any means an expert on indian food (whatever that is) and none of my thoughts or recipes or anecdotes should be given any more representative significance than they deserve. the only thing i am prepared to say definitively is that i am suspicious of the narrative of the expert, and of the expansive cultural generalization. there was another sense in which i asked the question "what does indian food mean to you?" but i'll leave that for another time.

thanks for your patience--this will probably be the post that breaks this blog's back!

[Mayhaw Man]

If you stop now I will remember this just for the above post. Wow.

[GG Mora]

....REALLY HOT LAMB VINDALOO.

That's Indian food to me.

Or it was until I dined at an Indian restaurant in England and a coworker who lived in India for a few years persuaded me to try a biryani. Mmmmm.

This has to be the fastest growing (eGullet) blog in history.

Edited June 14, 2004 by GG Mora (log)

[mongo_jones]

not to take us away from the topic of ass, but here's the projected menu for dinner tonight:

alu-palak

panditji's kaddu (suvir's family-chef's pumpkin recipe--substituting butternut squash)

mushoor dal

assorted korean banchan (prepared this morning by mrs. jones)

chapatis (if i have time, if not, rice)

yes, it will be a rare vegetarian night at the jones household (unless you count the korean stuff). i will try to document the prep of at least one of the veg dishes.

[ruthcooks]

Too many spices, not enough capital letters.

[hathor]

it will be a rare vegetarian night at the jones household

Ohh.... rare vegetarians at the Jones tonight. I detest well done vegetarians. Please, please post those pics!

[NulloModo]

it will be a rare vegetarian night at the jones household

Ohh.... rare vegetarians at the Jones tonight. I detest well done vegetarians. Please, please post those pics!

I think it depends on the type of vegetables they were raised on. Sure if they are the flax fiber and oat bran variety there is great potential for them to be gamey, but there might be some decent marbling in those raised on coconut, mango, cauliflower, and lentils.

[mongo_jones]

to whet the appetite a little here are pictures of the dinner ingredients.

1. alu palak (forgot about the kasoori methi)

2. mushoor dal

3. panditji's kaddu

i'll let someone else i.d the ingredients--i'm off to cook.

Edited June 15, 2004 by mongo_jones (log)

[tejon]

I'll take a stab there.

First picture, alu palak: red potatoes, spinach, chiles, turmeric, cayenne, cumin (?)

Second picture, mushoor dal: mashoor dal (tiny, delicious dried legumes), lime, whole cumin, chile, tomato, onion, garlic, cloves, ginger, bay leaf, cardamom (?)

Third picture, panditji's kaddu: butternut squash, ginger, chile, amchoor (mango) powder, cayenne, coriander, (?)

So are you doing chapatis, or rice?

[mongo_jones]

First picture, alu palak: red potatoes, spinach, chiles, turmeric, cayenne, cumin (?)

the third thing in the bowl is fenugreek seeds--picture quality is the problem not your eyes

Second picture, mushoor dal: mashoor dal (tiny, delicious dried legumes), lime, whole cumin, chile, tomato, onion, garlic, cloves, ginger, bay leaf, cardamom (?)

11/11

Third picture, panditji's kaddu: butternut squash, ginger, chile, amchoor (mango) powder, cayenne, coriander, (?)

the last item is hing (asafoetida) not coriander--again picture quality to blame.

the dal is ready--the squash is about 15 minutes away. i'll start the spinach 5 minutes from meal-time. too beat for chapatis--even though this is a meal better suited to chapatis or parathas i'm just going with the rice that's already in the cooker.

pictures of final results later.

[mongo_jones]

and here are the final pictures:

1. the finished mushoor dal --once again this would usually have been garnished with a few chopped cilantro leaves but there aren't any in the house (thanks to the evil you-know-who). mushoor dal is the classic bengali dal.

2. panditji's kaddu--again this is suvir saran's family cook (panditji)'s recipe. substituting butternut squash for the indian pumpkin (not available in the u.s) is suvir's idea. this is not a bengali dish. i do have bengali pumpkin recipes and if my mother ever finds out that i cooked a pumpkin dish for public display and used a total stranger's recipe instead of one of hers i'll be in trouble (but her recipes include steps like "grate the pumpkin", and really, who has the time--well, i do but)

3. alu-palak--the classic bengali way of eating this would be with kashondi (a kind of mustard sauce); a creamy mustard is not a bad sub, but we didn't have any. this looks pretty much like a trad. bengali recipe but bengalis don't, i think, use kasoori methi (a type of dried fenugreek) as i did here.

4. this is the meal on my plate--i love these aluminum(?) plates with the raised sides. i used to be served food only on these as a kid, due to my penchant for spilling food and i still love them. as you'll see the rice has been liberally doused with the dal, the lime-wedge that sits on the plate has been squeezed onto the rice/dal mix, and the vegetables are alongside--you eat some rice and dal and grab a little veg. every once in a while. the red thingy is gondalia red chilli pickle (made by the good people of swad, not me--the label says "takes you back home"; not completely sure where home would be for a gondalia red chilli pickle but i'm guessing it might be somewhere in andhra pradesh).

yes, it was all good--but i would say that, wouldn't i? those whose only exposure to indian food has been in restaurants may be nonplussed by the lack of cream or heavy spices in any of these dishes. welcome to a wacky new world!

(edit for obsessive reasons)

Edited June 15, 2004 by mongo_jones (log)

[bloviatrix]

Are any of recipes in recipegullet? If not, would you please enter them for those of us who want to try it at home?

[mongo_jones]

i believe recipes for all these dishes are available on the india forum--i know i posted recipes for the dal and the alu-palak; can't remember if suvir had posted his recipe or whether he'd p.m'd me. if i was a nice guy i'd offer to hunt them all down and link to the appropriate threads here...

they're all remarkably easy to make (as long as you have certain base ingredients).

[foodie52]

I've seen the amchur powder for sale. I know it is mango, but how is it used and what kind of flavor does it impart to the food?

[mongo_jones]

I've seen the amchur powder for sale. I know it is mango, but how is it used and what kind of flavor does it impart to the food?

it is a souring agent--and a little goes a long way. it is typically added at the end of cooking--often off-heat. another nice effect it has (why, i don't know) is that it reduces the oily aspect of dishes it is added to. buy some, taste a little and see what you might want to add it to. would probably be an interesting addition to a spice-rub for a grilled meat.

[jschyun]

the finished mushoor dal --once again this would usually have been garnished with a few chopped cilantro leaves but there aren't any in the house (thanks to the evil you-know-who). mushoor dal is the classic bengali dal.

what is wife doing with cilantro?

and when you guys eat a meal with both korean and indian dishes, what kind of rice do you normally eat?

[mongo_jones]

what is wife doing with cilantro?

and when you guys eat a meal with both korean and indian dishes, what kind of rice do you normally eat?

wife is throwing out cilantro because she thinks "it has gone bad".

as for type of rice--all indian food goes very well with the general short-grained korean rice. not all indian rice is basmati, as you know, and basmati doesn't go well with any east-asian cuisine that i know of. for comfort food like tonight we go with whatever is available. for certain kinds of chicken and meat dishes i will make basmati.

[Pan]

panditji's kaddu (suvir's family-chef's pumpkin recipe--substituting butternut squash)

In one of Madhur Jaffrey's cookbooks, there's a delicious pumpkin dish which I used to cook every fall for my parents in the days when my father could still eat foods with a lot of potassium in them. I usually substituted calabash (calabaza), which I probably like better than pumpkin. For those of you who aren't familiar with it, it's a sweet squash with black skin and orange pulp, pretty similar to a pumpkin but smaller.

I've tried using acorn squash for the dish, and it tasted good, but I found it hell to peel because of its pointed shape!

Edited June 15, 2004 by Pan (log)

[Pan]

I've seen the amchur powder for sale. I know it is mango, but how is it used and what kind of flavor does it impart to the food?

it is a souring agent--and a little goes a long way. it is typically added at the end of cooking--often off-heat.

It's also sometimes part of a tarka (infusion of ingredients in oil), fried up before the bigger items of a dish are put in. One of the nice things about amchoor is that it doesn't add liquid like lemon juice does, so if you want a dry curry or something, amchoor may work better than lemon juice.

[Episure]

I've seen the amchur powder for sale. I know it is mango, but how is it used and what kind of flavor does it impart to the food?

it is a souring agent--and a little goes a long way. it is typically added at the end of cooking--often off-heat.

It's also sometimes part of a tarka (infusion of ingredients in oil), fried up before the bigger items of a dish are put in. One of the nice things about amchoor is that it doesn't add liquid like lemon juice does, so if you want a dry curry or something, amchoor may work better than lemon juice.

Pan,

Lemon juice in Indian cooking does more than add sourness or tang to the dish. It actually makes 'discrete' all the complex flavours of the various ingredients. Sort of like getting your speakers in Phase.

This may sound too far fetched for even the pros to fathom but try it out. Make any Indian recipe and taste it before and after adding lemon/lime juice. It expands the spatial taste Stage.

[bleudauvergne]

Making my shopping list...

[GG Mora]

Not only does he have the fastest growing food blog in history, he's got this auxiliary blog going on over on the Southwest forum.

Mongo_Jones is so dreamy .

MJ, you've got me inspired to cook up something spicy. I even have some ajwain, some asafoetida and, if I'm not dreaming, some amchoor powder and black mustard seed in the house (in addition to cumin, coriander, fenugreek, and turmeric).

Now all I need is a little time.

[afoodnut]

Not only does he have the fastest growing food blog in history, he's got this auxiliary blog going on over on the Southwest forum....

Mongo_Jones is so dreamy .

Nah. It's not an auxiliary blog; just want to let those from Mongo's other home forum (he's got two, the Indian forum and the Southwest forum) know that he's blogging. Not everyone who posts/lurks over there on the southwest board ventures out to the wider fields of egullet. It can be hard: we get no respect. So many think we're middle america, or in the sticks, the heartland, whatever. We coloradans just want to be sure to give him behind the scenes support (even if it's perfectly visible to everyone), so he can give egulleteers a view of the hidden charms of Boulder/Denver.

Those of us who hang out over in the southwest forum have been priveleged to be a part of, and play a role in, mongo's adventures, explorations, discoveries, and disappointments with the food world here. (He's a newcomer, still been in Boulder less than a year.) A group of us have met. We had a boulder/denver dinner in April at Bombay Clay Oven, and are planning our next for a meal at Dalat, a Vietnamese restaurant on South Federal in Denver...

Edited June 15, 2004 by afoodnut (log)